Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post



W/Trinnov I was anxious to see the narrators' voices magically rise from my below-screen center speaker, but they moved to the floor under the left speaker.

Hopefully a setup problem.


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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'm going to have to read the manual to learn how to switch inputs w/the remote; pushing the CD button changes the remote's LCD to say CD, but nothing happens at the receiver and volume control is lost.

Probably like the stupid Marantz remotes, Press the CD button once, and it puts the remote(not the receiver) in CD mode. Have to press it again to put the receiver in "CD mode". Very unintuitive.


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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The 972 has the vocal clarity w/o the toppish sound of the Onkyo, and the refined treble that I mentioned before.

Finally some good news.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:41 AM
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I'm now thoroughly disgusted.

Here's what happened:

I fixed up and remounted the side surrounds.

Same problem, but this time it pinged *both* side surrounds 10 times, and came up w/no spatial data.

I guess it just doesn't like those dipole tweeters.

Just for kicks I raised the mike 2' and presto, it did come up w/spatial info, but 0 Hz XO for *all* of the surrounds.

But now the only thing I can get sound for is FM stereo. When I turn on Trinnov for the tuner it's selectable as a surround setting, but it only shows the indicator lights for the L, R, and sub.

I went through and set and reset the input parameters and checked to make sure the HDMI audio was still off, but no dice.

WTF, I went to check again and now it works!

One thing is that if Trinnov is on, no other surround modes work.

So, Trinnov at last.

And how does it sound?

Still w/the SS DVD, the only difference I can tell is that voices do sound a foot or two higher, but everything else sounds the same.

Maybe those 0 Hz XO's for the surrounds mean something's wack and I'm just imagining that it's doing anything at all.

But hold on! I went into the Trinnov settings and the Spatial Remapping was set to Off; I guess I did that after yesterday's issues. And I was imagining things.

Back in a minute...

Noah
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:56 AM
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OK, it does sound a bit more spacious now and the voices are higher, but nothing earthshaking.

OTOH, SS already has such great dimensionality that it's maybe it's hard to improve on.

Maybe Trinnov can make other DVD's sound closer to this.

But I'm pooped. I'll try some different DVD's and music tomorrow, and post some pictures and system details if I have time.

Oh, it turns out there's another CD label above the 2 which switched to the CD input; I guess the one at the top switches the button functions.

Noah
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:21 AM
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Noah et al:

I'm a little embarassed to report that there are still code refinements coming that should solve most of the issues you have correctly found with the current operation of the R-972. I will let you know when they are available.
Jeff
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:45 AM
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Beta testing is still in the hands of customers, in typical Sherwood fashion. You should be thoroughly embarassed, that's why I'll never buy SN again. Pathetic !
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

One thing is that if Trinnov is on, no other surround modes work.

??
If that is really true, it's a deal breaker.
Noah, can it be a setup issue or do you really think Sherwood designed it this way?

I hope Stereojeff can provide owners & potential buyers an explanation of how this is supposed to work.

ss9001

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Old 10-14-2009, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve. View Post

You should be thoroughly embarassed...

This time I'll have to agree with Steve.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Noah et al:

I'm a little embarassed to report that there are still code refinements coming that should solve most of the issues you have correctly found with the current operation of the R-972. I will let you know when they are available.
Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve. View Post

Beta testing is still in the hands of customers, in typical Sherwood fashion. You should be thoroughly embarassed, that's why I'll never buy SN again. Pathetic !

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Originally Posted by GaryMB View Post

This time I'll have to agree with Steve.

While Noah and I don't usually get along, I do understand and have felt the pain he's going through. I also truly wish it was going better for him. Unfortunately Noah is going thought the same beta testing that us P-965 owners where unknowingly subjected to.

No one should have to re-arrange their room and/or speakers to get the receiver to do what it was designed to do. Noah should be able plug it in and run the setup without re-doing his room or speakers. Then to make matters worse find out from Sherwood he did all that for nothing, because the receiver wasn't ready to be shipped without a firmware upgrade.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:39 AM
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Maybe this is why Outlaw has warned that it may be more than 60 days before the 997 will be released...
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:32 AM
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Glad I canceled my order. And to think the dealer assured me that the new firmware fixed any and all remaining issues. I guess he takes his cues from his Sherwood rep, so not his fault I suppose.

I hope you get this sorted out, noah. As for me, I've pretty much settled on a Pioneer SC-27. Same street price with all kinds of goodies not found in the R-972.

Still following the topic to see how Trinnov works out for noah and others. Could be good tech with a bad implementation.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post

Still following the topic to see how Trinnov works out for noah and others. Could be good tech with a bad implementation.

That sums up my situation, too. I'm darn happy with the Pioneer SC-09 as well as 2 Pioneer flagship receivers before it. I think you'll be very happy with an SC-27

But Trinnov has me very intrigued. If Sherwood can demonstrate they have a serious alternative to Audyssey that is robust, reliable & glitch-free, I could see considering one in the future.

But not now, not even close. It's as shame Sherwood doesn't have the resources of a Denon/Marantz/Pioneer/Onkyo to quite pull it off ---yet.

I still am hopeful Noah & others can work through the bugs & report great things to us.
I'd like to see Trinnov be a solid winner & give Audyssey a run for the money.

As much time as Sherwood has taken, to finally release it with the operational bugs being posted is troubling....I agree that Sherwood should be very embarrassed. The whole idea of room correction is not to have to do what noah is doing. Something is definitely not right here. Pioneer's older MCACC can calibrate & EQ my roomful of dipolar planar Magnepans just fine.


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Old 10-14-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkntz View Post

Maybe this is why Outlaw has warned that it may be more than 60 days before the 997 will be released...

I think that was a contractual delay so that the Outlaw would not be competing with the Sherwood when the R-972 just came out. I'm sure Sherwood wants to ride the Trinnov wave for a while before the Outlaw has a chance. Too bad there doesn't seem to be much of a wave at the moment.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwolfman View Post

I think that was a contractual delay so that the Outlaw would not be competing with the Sherwood when the R-972 just came out. I'm sure Sherwood wants to ride the Trinnov wave for a while before the Outlaw has a chance. Too bad there doesn't seem to be much of a wave at the moment.

The 60 days are contractual. I'm talking about the fact that they are now saying don't expect to see it in 60 days. It will likely take longer. That part is not contractual.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:30 AM
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Is Sherwood building it for Outlaw or Outlaw using another platform?

Steve
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:03 PM
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Sherwood is building the 997 to Outlaw's specifications. The 997 is based off the R-972 platform. It is a Pre/Pro, not a receiver. Most of the functionality appears to be the same, but will obviously have a different focus. There will be some hardware differences like balanced outputs on the 997. It sounds like the two platforms may have different software interfaces, and fortunately (based on Noah's experience) the 997 will have a different user's manual.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Noah et al:

I'm a little embarassed to report that there are still code refinements coming that should solve most of the issues you have correctly found with the current operation of the R-972. I will let you know when they are available.
Jeff

Not cool.

I hate to see yet another thread discuss everything but the product itself, but Sherwood is making it very difficult to stay focused on the product.

I think I just lost my ability to stay optimistic and be an early adopter of the Outlaw 997 - if it ever is released.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:38 PM
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Outlaw has said they will not release the 997 until they believe it is ready. That is why they have said it may take longer than the 60 day lag required by the contract.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:50 PM
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Would you guys please confine discussion of issues not related to operation to the other thread? Thanks.

Well I guess it's good news that my unit isn't supposed to work right.

"One thing is that if Trinnov is on, no other surround modes work."

"?? If that is really true, it's a deal breaker."

As soon as I wrote that, I realized it has to be true - Trinnov is all about space, and other surround algorithms will muck up whatever Trinnov does.

Couple of other things:

I was concentrating on the spatial effects, but I now realize that the EQ doesn't seem to do anything that I can tell, either.

There's a Surround button on the front panel that turns Trinnov on and off, but I don't see one on the remote.

I had a bad wired IR emitter, it works w/a different one. But the IR sensor is still pretty pathetic for use w/a normal remote.

The setup menus can be exited from any layer more quickly by just pushing the setup button; settings are made/saved as soon as selected.

I realized something else - SS, while having amazing sound/surround, has always had a bit of an ear-splitting/piercing sound to me, in particular the music.

This was the case when I had a Lexicon DC1/Carver 705 as well as the HK635.

It doesn't on the 972.

This and the other things I said about the sound actually surprise me, because I'm an all amps sound the same kind of guy.

That's not to say the differences can't be attributed to freq resp, or even placebo effect.

But I was actually thinking I might keep the 972 as-is for the SQ.

Truth is, the 635's EQ didn't do all that much for the sound, even so Audyssey on the 705, except for the bass, which it helped a lot.

Speaking of bass, jury's still out on that w/the 972, but is less than before.

Not yet clear if turning up the sub restores it properly.

What's puzzling is that w/o EQ the bass sounds smoother than it should in my nearly square listening area.

Noah
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:07 PM
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The other thread? This is AVS, where the moderators and even most users are normally quite militant about having one and only one thread per topic or piece of equipment. Why should the 972 be an exception and have two threads, unlike everything else?
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:21 PM
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Well, the outlaw 977 will be related, but is another piece of equipment - it ought to have its own thread when the time is right I would think...

The r-972 has several other threads, but frankly the other ones were consumed by people bashing staff at SN mainly realted to experences with an earlier reciever, or complaints about the delivery delays.

This one is supposed to be dedicated to people who are focused on the *actual* r-972 for better or worse - how it works, sounds, etc.

btw, thanks Noah for the sharing the experiences so far...
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As soon as I wrote that, I realized it has to be true - Trinnov is all about space, and other surround algorithms will muck up whatever Trinnov does.

So Trinnov is another surround format like Dolby ProLogic or Logic 7? I don't understand

I thought it was a room correction algorithm for EQ & spatial adjustment. Everyone else in the world implements these as processing AFTER surround decoders/processing. No one implements room correction as a replacement for surround processing.

If true, how would the unit decode std Dolby, DTS, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA?

Count me confused

ss9001

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Old 10-14-2009, 01:31 PM
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"The other thread?

Actually there are two other large 972 threads.

"This is AVS, where the moderators and even most users are normally quite militant about having one and only one thread per topic or piece of equipment. Why should the 972 be an exception and have two threads, unlike everything else?"

Hardly; it's very common to have pre-release and//or general discussion threads, and a new one for users' experiences once it's available.

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Old 10-14-2009, 01:32 PM
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There's a mitigating factor re the mike jack being on the back panel - apparently itcan be left plugged in.

Unless that's the cause of all the problems.

Noah
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:45 PM
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"apparently it can be left plugged in"

on the r-872 I'm sure the manual says to unplug the mic when not being used. I don't know why, and never tried leaving it plugged in, but that well could be causing some issue...
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

So Trinnov is another surround format like Dolby ProLogic or Logic 7? I don't understand

I thought it was a room correction algorithm for EQ & spatial adjustment. Everyone else in the world implements these as processing AFTER surround decoders/processing. No one implements room correction as a replacement for surround processing.

If true, how would the unit decode std Dolby, DTS, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA?

Count me confused

Actually, you are correct on all counts. Trinnov is not a substitute for surround decoding. It helps the speakers sound like they emanate from the right locations.

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
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Actually, you are correct on all counts. Trinnov is not a substitute for surround decoding. It helps the speakers sound like they emanate from the right locations.

Then the Sherwood should allow all other surround formats to be used when Trinnov is engaged. If it doesn't on noah katz's Sherwood, that sounds like an implementation issue that needs fixed.

Someone please explain how it can be otherwise.
(Or maybe leaving the mic plugged in is the problem)

ss9001

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There's a mitigating factor re the mike jack being on the back panel - apparently itcan be left plugged in.

Unless that's the cause of all the problems.

Noah,

It would be good if you could leave it plugged in. Does the manual or the setup menu say to remove the mic cable when done? Trinnov must be different than Audyssey in that as soon as you connect the mic it goes to the calibration mode and when done you have to disconnect the mic.

I admire your patience as it is obvious that you want the R-972 to work out. It is too bad that setting up the R-972 is so much of a challenge though. I am not surprised on your thoughts of the SQ of the R-972 as I had expected it to be good but I am also not surprised of the setup issues as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As soon as I wrote that, I realized it has to be true - Trinnov is all about space, and other surround algorithms will muck up whatever Trinnov does.

By this do you mean DDPLIIx or any other surround mode can not be used with Trinnov? What happens with Trinnov active and you try to use any of the surround modes, are they just not functional?

Bill

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:15 PM
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Would you guys please confine discussion of issues not related to operation to the other thread? Thanks.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread. It seemed related to the problems you were experiencing.

By the way, you can buy an Ethernet cable extension if the mic cable isn't long enough. You could always leave that plugged into the unit and just pull it out whenever you needed to re-run the set-up.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:26 PM
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"By this do you mean DDPLIIx or any other surround mode can not be used with Trinnov? What happens with Trinnov active and you try to use any suuround modes, are they just not functional?"

No other mode is selectable.

Re surround, now that I think about it, I'm not sure how it all works.

For discrete 5.1 it seems pretty straightforward - just decode the bits for each track, and maybe add proprietary processing.

For 7.1 sound w/5.1 source, I believe they're all proprietary.

I guess the question is (among others which I'm not knowledgeable enough to ask), where does Trinnov get the extra 2 ch?

Noah
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:05 PM
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"Sorry. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread. It seemed related to the problems you were experiencing."

No problem; I was mostly referring to those bent on bashing Sherwood.

Not that they don't deserve it, but please, not here.

"By the way, you can buy an Ethernet cable extension if the mic cable isn't long enough. You could always leave that plugged into the unit and just pull it out whenever you needed to re-run the set-up."

Thanks, I was wondering about that; it looks like an ethernet cable but I didn't know if it was one.

Noah
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