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post #181 of 3300 Old 10-22-2009, 07:03 PM
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Good rec's, thanks Jeff.

I've been wanting to see Pearl Harbor again; should have it from Netflix by Saturday; and I ordered the BD of the L of J series on BD.

Noah
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post #182 of 3300 Old 10-22-2009, 07:13 PM
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I'm having another issue w/bass.

Any other Battlestar Gallactica (the recent series) fans out there?

At the end of every episode when the credits start there are deep, awesome sounding drums.

On the last couple of discs (Season 4, discs 3 and 4), which is to say, the ones I've had since getting the 972, either they emasculated the sound or there's a problem w/the 972 - the subs (and my Buttkicker, running off of the same signal) don't even play when the drums are going.

Anyone else noticed this?

Noah
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post #183 of 3300 Old 10-22-2009, 08:03 PM
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If you want demo media...1) Police Certifiable- Bluray, 2) Iron Man- Blurray and 3) Hellboy II- Bluray. These discs are considered Audiophile quality for DD TrueHD and DTSHD-MA.

Two channel.... Dire Straits- Brothers in Arms and Cindi Lauper- At Last

SCAD: Pink Floyd- Dark Side of the Moon

DVD-A Neil Young- Harvest

On the choice of Pearl Harbor....Seen the Bluray version. Chick flick, sound is ok, some nice video scenes. Not something I would use as a demo compared to other films out there. I am sure other can come up with better also. This was off the top of my head
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post #184 of 3300 Old 10-22-2009, 10:09 PM
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I'll second Iron Man, and oddly enough Kung Fu Panda has some really good audio. There's a scene where the bad guy is escaping from the prison that has good surround effects that include both very specific surround placement as well as general ambience. There's also the "skadoosh" scene at the end that will help you verify whether or not you have low bass coming through. Both of the Transformer movies have good audio as well.
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post #185 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 07:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'm having another issue w/bass.

Any other Battlestar Gallactica (the recent series) fans out there?

At the end of every episode when the credits start there are deep, awesome sounding drums.

On the last couple of discs (Season 4, discs 3 and 4), which is to say, the ones I've had since getting the 972, either they emasculated the sound or there's a problem w/the 972 - the subs (and my Buttkicker, running off of the same signal) don't even play when the drums are going.

Anyone else noticed this?

I own the BR BattleStar complete series and have a Denon 3808. I will compare season 1 ending and the two discs you mentioned too see if I notice a difference.

As an aside, can you send me a PM about how to connect a buttkicker (or two) to the same signal as my sub? Start assuming the only thing I know about buttkickers is that they screw onto the bottom of my chair (which is all I know) - oh, and that they make the experience much better. If you do not have the time or inclination, no big deal.
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post #186 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I own the BR BattleStar complete series and have a Denon 3808. I will compare season 1 ending and the two discs you mentioned too see if I notice a difference.

As an aside, can you send me a PM about how to connect a buttkicker (or two) to the same signal as my sub? Start assuming the only thing I know about buttkickers is that they screw onto the bottom of my chair (which is all I know) - oh, and that they make the experience much better. If you do not have the time or inclination, no big deal.

y cables work well or I have both in's and out's on sub and my shaker amps. I've hook them up trying all combination's and I haven't had a problem or noticed a difference with any method, currently I have the LFE coming first to my 3 shaker amps which daisy chain the signal and then out to my front sub.... hard to error on this one...
and yes tactile drivers make a noticeable difference....
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post #187 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'm having another issue w/bass.
... On the last couple of discs (Season 4, discs 3 and 4), which is to say, the ones I've had since getting the 972, either they emasculated the sound or there's a problem w/the 972 - the subs (and my Buttkicker, running off of the same signal) don't even play when the drums are going.

Is it possible, and it would be an unbelievable screwup if true, the 972 is not properly handling bass management? Assuming your sub and buttkicker lead are connected to the sub out, then LFE and if any of your speakers are declared to be "small" then their bass signal should be going to the subwoofer. If just the LFE signal is going out, then the 972 is responsible for boosting the output subwoofer signal by 10db to match the Dolby Digital decoding specification. If bass is from other speakers is also being directed to the subwoofer channel then the it should be boosted by 15db (after first lowering the input LFE channel by 5db adding in the bass) This all should be automatic if you are using HDMI or coax/toslink for your audio input.

What are your speakers set too? If you have a decent subwoofer you probably want all speakers set to "small" and subwoofer set to "true".

I have looked for an online user manual for the 972 so I don't know what settings you have available to you.
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post #188 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 11:06 AM
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"currently I have the LFE coming first to my 3 shaker amps which daisy chain the signal and then out to my front sub.... hard to error on this one..."

I'd assume that you use this method becasue the seating (and therefore shakers) are between the source and your subwoofer, right?

Otherwise, wouldn't it be reasonable to send the "best" signal to your subwoofer because it uses all the frequency information in the LFE signal - and then using the sub-wooer's out - sent it on to the less discriminating butt kicker stuff?

I'm going to guess the difference would be super-negligable - but us type folks do tend to like to optimize even in the theorectical realm, don't we?
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post #189 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 12:05 PM
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The subwoofer out from the 972 (to keep things on topic) or whatever receiver you are using should go to an RCA Y-connector (1 male, 2 female). From one female connect a cable to your subwoofer (I assume it is self powered). Connect another cable from the other female connection to the separate Buttkicker amp. From the Buttkicker amp you do speaker level connections to the Buttkickers. More information can be found here: http://www.thebuttkicker.com/support/resources.htm

I have my Velodyne Subwoofer and Buttkickers connected this way. You absolutely need the separate Buttkicker amp. Those things take a lot of power to run.
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post #190 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott911 View Post


I'd assume that you use this method becasue the seating (and therefore shakers) are between the source and your subwoofer, right?

Otherwise, wouldn't it be reasonable to send the "best" signal to your subwoofer because it uses all the frequency information in the LFE signal - and then using the sub-wooer's out - sent it on to the less discriminating butt kicker stuff?

I'm going to guess the difference would be super-negligable - but us type folks do tend to like to optimize even in the theorectical realm, don't we?

correct, but before the sub was between the receiver and the shakers and I believe super-negligible is appropriate, also in retrospect I remember adding a y connector, so I no longer route the sub through all the amps for the reason's you give above, but I really can't hear any differences
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post #191 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 02:38 PM
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"y cables work well"

Yep, that's what I do.

"What are your speakers set too? If you have a decent subwoofer you probably want all speakers set to "small" and subwoofer set to "true"."

Yes; Trinnov set the L/C/R's to 80 Hz, so everything below goes the sub.

Re the missing bass on BG credits, what's even more confusing is that when I was on the first Trinnov setup that had insufficient bass on all material, is that when I turned Trinnov off, the bass returned, but no when I turn it off, it doesn't.

Noah
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post #192 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 02:45 PM
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May I suggest that for the time being we table discussions about bass levels on the R-972 when Trinnov is engaged. Although I haven't heard an issue in the 50 or so field demos I've conducted with a dozen different 972's at dealers across the US, Trinnov told us that there is an issue with measured bass level in some units that can result in bass being set between 2 and 5 dB below the correct level. They have revised their code to eliminate the issue and it's being tested currently. It could be available for distribution as early as next week.

If you believe bass level is too low on your set, please advance the level at the subwoofer.

I will post here as soon as the revised firmware is available for distribution.



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post #193 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 03:03 PM
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I'm glad you have a thick skin Jeff! ~ it's nice to have information like this available as issues are being being indentified by folks like Noah and... was it Jason? Have a nice weekend all...
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post #194 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

On the last couple of discs (Season 4, discs 3 and 4), which is to say, the ones I've had since getting the 972, either they emasculated the sound or there's a problem w/the 972 - the subs (and my Buttkicker, running off of the same signal) don't even play when the drums are going.

Anyone else noticed this?

I'm pretty sure they toned down the drums in the later episodes.
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post #195 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 03:24 PM
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I totally agree.

Thanks Jeff.
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post #196 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 03:37 PM
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Fair enough, Jeff.

Noah
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post #197 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 03:44 PM
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"I'm pretty sure they toned down the drums in the later episodes."

Interesting, but like I said, there was no sub output at all - I put my hand on one of the cones, and nothing.

Possibly I'm still messing up on input setup, the Quick Adjust from the menus, and the button on the front panel.

Jeff, does that button override the Quick Adjust, or is it just a different way of doing the same thing?

Noah
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post #198 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 04:12 PM
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Noah:

I don't know what button your referring to.

In my experience, the Trinnov features can be selected through the Quick Listening Menu or through Input Setup. Changes made in the Quick Menu are stored in the input you were using when you accessed the menu and will replace any choices made during input setup.

Jeff
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post #199 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 04:45 PM
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"I don't know what button your referring to."

On the front panel just to the right of the Standby button is one labeled "Surround", which turns Trinnov on and off.

If it's on, no surround modes can be selected - what about that?

Noah
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post #200 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 07:24 PM
 
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I did some random sampling of both the opening credits and ending credits for BattleStar Galactica complete series on Blu-Ray. Season 4 and 4.5 have definately lower bass than season one.

The credits during season 1 were longer and the bass was thumping like your heart was after the end of each episode. The credits at the end of season 4 and 4.5 was thumping like your heart after watching C-Span.

A huge difference. There still was some bass going to the sub, but barely any.

This is on a Denon 3808 using LPCM.
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post #201 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 07:53 PM
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Can this receiver take Component in and send out HDMI Out? Or would I need a separate set of Component Out cables? Trying to hook a Wii up to my projector and 1 HDMI cable out from the Receiver would be the best.

Thanks.
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post #202 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 09:22 PM
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That's a relief, thanks for checking that, cybrsage.

Noah
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post #203 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 09:24 PM
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Sorry for not addressing everyone's questions.

I'm in a crunch at work and for now I'll only be spending time on the most salient issues.

Noah
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post #204 of 3300 Old 10-23-2009, 09:39 PM
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Any one else with one of these receivers?
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post #205 of 3300 Old 10-24-2009, 02:18 PM
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Things are looking up.

Last night I watched Step Up 2, the Streets on BD.

The sound was really good. Again, clean and clear, and no complaints about the bass. The hip hop (I guess) bass lines slid down nice and low.

There was a backyard scene that had music and crickets and brought to mind what Jeff has said about it sounding "right".

I switched it to another input where all the Trinnov settings were the same except Remapping was set Delay + Level only; speaker distances/level and EQ were still on.

The soundstage wasn't as wide and it sounded more like speakers and less like being there.

[edit] The bass was *much* louder w/o the remapping. Not sure which is the more correct level; it sounded right w/the remapping on, but that's w/the sub amp level turned up from halfway used at setup to all the way.

The difference w/remapping off sounded like a lot more than that.

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post #206 of 3300 Old 10-24-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Things are looking up.

Last night I watched Step Up 2, the Streets on BD.

The sound was really good. Again, clean and clear, and no complaints about the bass. The hip hop (I guess) bass lines slid down nice and low.

There was a backyard scene that had music and crickets and brought to mind what Jeff has said about it sounding "right".

I switched it to another input where all the Trinnov settings were the same except Remapping was set Delay + Level only; speaker distances/level and EQ were still on.

The soundstage wasn't as wide and it sounded more like speakers and less like being there.

Thanks Noah for sharing your experiences. I have a Denon avr-2310 that has the Audyssey Mult EQ system. When I turn it on I would describe the difference with roughly the same words you describe the difference with remapping on/off.
Do you have experience with Audyssey too, so you could try and describe the differences to Trinnov?
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post #207 of 3300 Old 10-24-2009, 02:41 PM
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Yes, I had Audyssey before this in the Onkyo 705.

It didn't seem to help soundstaging or general sound quality at all, but improved the bass a lot.

Noah
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post #208 of 3300 Old 10-24-2009, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Yes, I had Audyssey before this in the Onkyo 705.

It didn't seem to help soundstaging or general sound quality at all, but improved the bass a lot.

That's interesting. Were the comparison you were using using the same source material etc, as in Apples for Apples ?

Thanks for the Trinnov comments as well, I take it you have gotten over the Trinnov setup issues and it is now fully functional ?

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post #209 of 3300 Old 10-24-2009, 10:12 PM
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"Were the comparison you were using using the same source material etc, as in Apples for Apples?"

I just compared Audyssey on and off a few times. Mostly it made the sound much brighter, to where I turned the treble down 5 dB.

Interestingly the HK 635 had the same treble issue, but it sounded nicer and the imaging was improved slightly by the EQ.

My HT system is quite compromised in imaging for two reasons - all the speakers are against the wall, and the asymmetry from the right speaker being only a couple of feet from a window wall, while the left is roughly in midwall.

At one time I had the same speakers flanking the fireplace (see pictures below) and a several feet from the back wall, and the imaging, particularly depth, was worlds better.

On last night's movie the 972 impressed me by adding quite a bit of depth.

Maybe I'll knock together some stands to get the speakers out from the wall; not sure whether the 972's advantage will grow or shrink.

Thinking more about last night, a nice effect was that the soundstage seemed expanded around to the sides.

This is what a lot of users are reporting for Audyssey DSX Wide in the Denon and Onkyo threads.

It would be interesting to compare Trinnov w/these.

I imagine DSX w/real wide speakers would win, but for those who can't/won't add the requisite speakers, Trinnov is looking like a nice option.

Though it's really too soon to generalize based on just a couple of movies.

Noah
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post #210 of 3300 Old 10-24-2009, 10:42 PM
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Here's a repeat of my equipment list and some pic's:

Fronts: Northcreek Rhythm's; 7" Scanspeak 8545(35?)I forget), D2905 tweeter

Side surrounds: NHT SuperZero w.Linnaeum dipole tweeters

Back surrounds: Newform 630's; Scanspeak 8545 7" woofer, Newform 30" ribbon

Sub: Dual Maelstrom-X 18's in 14 cf sealed box at back of room, which is roughly 22' square, opening to rest of house at the back.

Sub amp: Peavey CS4080HZ, 1200 W/ch into 8 ohms, which is how the Mael's are wired.

The pic's are in chronological order, so the Trinnov info screens are for where the mike is in the previous pic.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

Noah
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