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post #211 of 3216 Old 10-24-2009, 09:44 PM
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post #212 of 3216 Old 10-24-2009, 09:46 PM
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post #213 of 3216 Old 10-24-2009, 09:49 PM
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post #214 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 12:35 AM
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Hi Noah,

Thanks for the updates. Your place reminds me of the (Eichler-inspired?) homes I've seen around Rengstorff & Central. I like the architecture but can see the challenge in setting up an HT.
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post #215 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 03:03 AM
 
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Thanks for all the pics!
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post #216 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Were the comparison you were using using the same source material etc, as in Apples for Apples?"

I just compared Audyssey on and off a few times. Mostly it made the sound much brighter, to where I turned the treble down 5 dB.

Interestingly the HK 635 had the same treble issue, but it sounded nicer and the imaging was improved slightly by the EQ.

My HT system is quite compromised in imaging for two reasons - all the speakers are against the wall, and the asymmetry from the right speaker being only a couple of feet from a window wall, while the left is roughly in midwall.

At one time I had the same speakers flanking the fireplace (see pictures below) and a several feet from the back wall, and the imaging, particularly depth, was worlds better.

On last night's movie the 972 impressed me by adding quite a bit of depth.

Maybe I'll knock together some stands to get the speakers out from the wall; not sure whether the 972's advantage will grow or shrink.

Thinking more about last night, a nice effect was that the soundstage seemed expanded around to the sides.

This is what a lot of users are reporting for Audyssey DSX Wide in the Denon and Onkyo threads.

It would be interesting to compare Trinnov w/these.

I imagine DSX w/real wide speakers would win, but for those who can't/won't add the requisite speakers, Trinnov is looking like a nice option.

Though it's really too soon to generalize based on just a couple of movies.

Hi Noah,

My brother has a 3808 and we spent a long time getting the Audyssey right as you really had to know what you were doing to set it up (many hours on AVS until I found the appropriate thread), it was effective when set up correctly but he had a more traditional layout. It may simply have been your in walls that caused it to become brighter (more reflections).

I agree that the XT version of Audyssey significantly improved the bass response.

Based on my understanding of how Trinnov works moving the speakers out into the room should improve the sound again. It's design basis IMO is superior to Audyssey and the only significant feature it has that Trinnov does not is Dynamic Eq.

Thanks for your response
Phoenix

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post #217 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 07:34 AM
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Noah. Great photos. Room looks great. I think if you would just knock out that side wall and gut out the kitchen, then you would have an amazing room.

I tried to pay attention to where you had the mic in the photo and then the results. The angles appeared to change. Are the results as accurate as they appear?

Outlaw has always said that with their version you could plug your computer into the USB port and get the Trinnov curves - though it sounds now like you can't do anything with them. Have you tried plugging into the USB port yet?

-Ryan

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post #218 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diet butcher View Post

Can this receiver take Component in and send out HDMI Out? Or would I need a separate set of Component Out cables? Trying to hook a Wii up to my projector and 1 HDMI cable out from the Receiver would be the best.

Thanks.

Yes. I have my Wii plugged in to a component input and it passes through to HDMI perfectly.
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post #219 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 10:39 AM
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"I take it you have gotten over the Trinnov setup issues and it is now fully functional ?"

Forgot to answer this - no, the unit has the same setup issues, but if Trinnov seems to be working normally if it finishes setup successfully.

And there's the inconsistency in bass levels.

Steve,

It *is* an Eichler near Rengstorff & Central, which I reworked to my liking.

Phoenix,

"My brother has a 3808 and we spent a long time getting the Audyssey right as you really had to know what you were doing to set it up (many hours on AVS until I found the appropriate thread), it was effective when set up correctly but he had a more traditional layout. It may simply have been your in walls that caused it to become brighter (more reflections)."

I don't have a lot of patience for all that. The only difference I heard between the 2 or 3 setups I did was the bass, and I stopped when it was good.

Re reflections, seems to me that the time domain correction should diminish brightness if anything.

"Based on my understanding of how Trinnov works moving the speakers out into the room should improve the sound again."

Of course the sound will benefit for any system by making the first reflection delayed beyond the critical msec window; what I was wondering is if the gap between Trinnov and "normal" would be widened or narrowed.

k,

"I think if you would just knock out that side wall and gut out the kitchen, then you would have an amazing room. "

Actually I think the window wall probably gives a more damaging first reflection.

I plan to address that with CD (controlled directivity) speakers with a lot of toe-in, as well as deployable away from the walls.

"I tried to pay attention to where you had the mic in the photo and then the results. The angles appeared to change. Are the results as accurate as they appear?"

It's hard to tell, but the mike is in different positions.

At least in one case the results were not very accurate; I had the mike several ft closer to one of the side surrounds but the azimuth was only a few deg different.

"Have you tried plugging into the USB port yet?"

You mean just run a cable from the 972's USB port to my PC? Haven't tried it; the manual says nothing about it, but I'll ask Jeff.

What would be cool is if it would write the EQ info onto a memory card plugged into the port.

Noah
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post #220 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 10:46 AM
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I watched Tropic Thunder last night.

It seems that the improvement from regular DVD to lossless audio on BD is much bigger than before, unless I've just gotten lucky on my recent movie choices.

This is definitely the best my system has sounded.

A clean, spacious, "easy" sound; the cuts from Buffalo Springfield and the Stones (TT is a sendup of Hearts of Darkness, which was about making Apocalypse now) were especially nice, with imaging I've never had in this setup.

Noah
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post #221 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 08:28 PM
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Everything that I have watched with a DTS-HD MA soundtrack is absolutely stunning on my R-972 (probably in general).

My R-972 seems to do a great job of detecting when DTS-HD is present and using it first.

PG
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post #222 of 3216 Old 10-25-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z6p6tist6 View Post

My R-972 seems to do a great job of detecting when DTS-HD is present and using it first.

Isn't that the player's prerogative?

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post #223 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 07:41 AM
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I know a couple of members active here have experience with Axiom's Quadpolar surrounds. http://www.axiomaudio.com/qs8.html

My question: is this speaker a potential good match for ue with the r-972's tinnov function? My concern is that these surrounds are designed to diappear in a room by way of firing out it's sound in four-plus directions...

Normally, that would be good (especially in may case, where my seating position is basically flush against the back wall) - but I'm wondering what the tinnov mic will make of it? Maybe instead I should get a "simpler" speaker?

Note I intend to pair any new surround speakers with the axiom on-wall w22's I have already. I'm also plan to give the SW a try 'creating' phantom center to see how that goes. Also in system is a big-ol Axiom Sub.
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post #224 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 09:14 AM
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scott911:

We have di-pole surround speakers in our conference room and I have the same models on the ceiling of my family room/home theater. The R-972 does find these speakers, but it is harder and may require several attempts or slightly revised mic positions. I can only assume that the Axiom's would be a similar but surmountable challenge.

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post #225 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 11:23 AM
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Maybe I was just lucky w/my last couple of movies - last night Pearl Harbor was a disappointment.

The thing I remembered most from when I saw it in the theater was the planes' rear-front pans.

I don't think I heard the rear surrounds once, and now that I think about it, I think the only time I have heard them was on Super Speedway.

On top of that, the bass sucked. I actually went and put a finger on a sub cone to make sure it was working.

I didn't feel the Buttkicker once during the whole movie.

And the overall SQ was barely better than w/the Onkyo.

Just to make sure something in the configuration hadn't gone south, I put Tropic Thunder back in and it was all there - clarity, low bass etc.

If it matters, the soundtrack for PH was uncompressed, and the display said PCM 48 kHz.

That's what TrueHD is after decoding, right?

Noah
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post #226 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 11:30 AM
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these observations (pearl harbor) are all pre-new-firmware expected this week, right?

(I still respect you Noah, eve though you've just publically admitted to watching a "chick-flick!")
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post #227 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 11:59 AM
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"these observations (pearl harbor) are all pre-new-firmware expected this week, right?"

Yes, but now I'm not sure it will make any difference.

I was under the impression from what Jeff said previously about the f/w that it would handle setups better (that is, able to do them) but not necessarily change the sound, but from what he just said, that sounds doubtful as well.

"(I still respect you Noah, eve though you've just publically admitted to watching a "chick-flick!")"

Didn't know that, but that has to be more than compensated for by the abundance of vintage high power piston aircraft

About the bass again, I was particularly disappointed at the part where Cuba Gooding Jr grabs the antiaircraft guns; I've seen it mentioned several times as good subwoofer demo material.

I wonder if w/PCM there's an issue w/correct LFE levels as someone mentioned earlier.

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post #228 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

If it matters, the soundtrack for PH was uncompressed, and the display said PCM 48 kHz.

That's what TrueHD is after decoding, right?

Dolby TrueHD decodes to 96 khz for up to 7.1 channels or 192 khz for 2 channels. Something looks fishy in your setup.
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post #229 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

If it matters, the soundtrack for PH was uncompressed, and the display said PCM 48 kHz.

That's what TrueHD is after decoding, right?

Seems like TrueHD track is not present in PH.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Pearl-Harbor-Blu-ray/190/

It has only LPCM 5.1 (48kHz, 24-bit)

You display seems like showing it correctly.
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post #230 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 12:27 PM
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"Dolby TrueHD decodes to 96 khz for up to 7.1 channels or 192 khz for 2 channels. Something looks fishy in your setup."

PH was an uncompressed track, not TrueHD.

Are you saying it should have been displayed as 96 kHz?

Even so, I doubt I could hear the difference unless it's indicative of other issues, which I guess was your point.

Noah
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post #231 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 12:47 PM
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I guess not; Bluray Digest says

"'Pearl Harbor' sounds absolutely fantastic. Buena Vista gives us a full-tilt uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround track in 48kHz/24-bit, and this is a true reference presentation. The film's sound design has not aged a day, and remains an utterly immersive experience."

Noah
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post #232 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 02:02 PM
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Noah:

Please check to make sure that Trinnov and 3D remapping were engaged when you viewed and auditioned Pearl Harbor. I've demonstrated that movie hundreds of times and never had anything less than completely seamless pans when Trinnov was in use.

Jeff
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post #233 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Dolby TrueHD decodes to 96 khz for up to 7.1 channels or 192 khz for 2 channels. Something looks fishy in your setup."

PH was an uncompressed track, not TrueHD.

Are you saying it should have been displayed as 96 kHz?

Even so, I doubt I could hear the difference unless it's indicative of other issues, which I guess was your point.

I didn't know PH was not TrueHD (you're the one that mentioned TrueHD decoding). If it was TrueHD then it should have said 96 khz, but as others have shown it is 5.1 48 khz/24 bit, so the 972 was apparently displaying the information properly.
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post #234 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 02:12 PM
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"Please check to make sure that Trinnov and 3D remapping were engaged when you viewed and auditioned Pearl Harbor. I've demonstrated that movie hundreds of times and never had anything less than completely seamless pans when Trinnov was in use."

I didn't change anything, unless changing the tuner's Trinnov settings affected Vid1, but I'll check when I get home.

Noah
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post #235 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 02:42 PM
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Noah,

I respect your patience with the R-972. Your experiences with the R-972 and the fact that you are not sure everything is dialed in correctly reminds me of my experience with the Boston Acoustics AVP7 (SN P-965 clone). My short time with the AVP7 was frustrating due to a poor user interface and very poorly written manual. The SQ of the AVP7 was excellent but I just never knew if I had everything setup correctly. I returned the AVP7 and bought a Anthem AVM 30 which was very easy to setup and has very well written manual. Actually to this day the AVM 30s manual is about the best I have ever come across.

I just played Pearl Harbor on DVD with DTS during the invasion of PH and the SQ from the surrounds is excellent (front to back/side to side). Bass from the sub has plenty of impact as well. We watched Pirates of the Caribbean AWE the other night on DVD and I have to admit the DD 5.1 track was awesome. I can see how quite a few here on AVS are not sold on TrueHD and DTS-MA.

Good luck and I hope you master the R-972.

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post #236 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
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I didn't know PH was not TrueHD (you're the one that mentioned TrueHD decoding). If it was TrueHD then it should have said 96 khz

Actually most TrueHD sound tracks are 48kHz, only very few are 96kHz. The difference between 48 and 96 is very small, so something else is the problem here.
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post #237 of 3216 Old 10-26-2009, 06:43 PM
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What it comes down to is the original. If the original is 48khz, then I want my copy in 48khz, and so on

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post #238 of 3216 Old 10-27-2009, 11:20 AM
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"Please check to make sure that Trinnov and 3D remapping were engaged when you viewed and auditioned Pearl Harbor. "

They were.

Bill, thanks for the encouragement.

Noah
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post #239 of 3216 Old 10-29-2009, 09:44 PM
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So, after a bunch more experimentation this week I have concluded that the bass management issues that I was experiencing were almost certainly not because of Trinnov not working.

As it turns out, I have not been decoding the highest quality audio signals off of my DVDs. In essence, I believe I have spent several months hearing the Dolby Pro Logic audio as opposed to the (much higher quality) Dolby Digital audio that is on most of my DVDs.

I will say that this is in part due to a less-than-clear manual, but I should have noticed it long ago.

Now that I'm hearing my movies as they should be heard, I believe the Trinnov optimization in my R-972 has done a damned fine job of calibrating my system. (I have actually gone back and turned my sub down to the level it was calibrated at. Good sign, huh?)

Oh, and every DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD Blu-Ray that I have watched sound frakking brilliant.

Still looking forward to the upcoming firmware update, to see if it improves some other little things, but my situation is much improved.

For those following along at home (with their own R-972s), these are the current settings for my Blu-Ray input (LG BD-390 connected via HDMI).

HDMI Assign: HDMI 1
Video Assign: ---
Video Mode: HDMI
Audio Assign: ---
Audio Mode: HDMI

Auto Surround: On*
Audio Remaster: Off
HD Audio: On**
A/V Sync: 0 ms
DC Trigger: Off

Trinnov Position: 3
Trinnov Room EQ: Natural
Trinnov Spatial Mode: 3D Remap
Trinnov Remapping: Cinema
Cinema EQ: On

*Auto Surround had been turned off, which was apparently keeping the receiver from switching to Dolby Digital

**I believe you have to have HD Audio set to On for the new Blu-Ray audio formats (Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA)
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post #240 of 3216 Old 11-02-2009, 02:33 AM
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Still flabbergasted by the fact that only one individual (Noah Katz) is posting his experiences and impressions about this unit although more than only a few should have been sold by now.

Anyone ?

Very strange...
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