Most of you are talking ancient history, units that you can't really buy new anymore. Yamaha upped the cost just to get a full power ratings to the 765, for the newbies thats 20-20k @ 8 ohms with 5 of more channels driven, which anything less would have little meaning. Onkyo on the other hand does it for there low end AVRs as well as there high end. I do not like Onkyo's DSP settings, that the yamaha does better (665 vs. 607) But to me denon (1909) sound fields (DSP) sounds best , the effects sound real, not gimmicky at first listen, the yamaha may do well with alot of tweaking, Onkyo is hopeless here. Really looking forward to hearing the newest high end yamahas when they hit retail, the low end has been a big disappointment for me, 665 what was yamaha thinking, no one would notice the downgrade, the weight loss made it to easy to figure it out.