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post #31 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

True and also all you have to do is look at the test reports on various receivers to know that they COULD meet those specs. A few I can think of right off the top is the Denon 4308CI or even the 3808CI. I'm sure there others out there that would also pass THX certification easily, just not worth the additional cost for liscensing. Have no idea what those cost are but evidently those makers feel their products are worthy enough without paying for it. Read the full test reports on products and not just reviews or personal preferences from online or magazines to determine the real value of a product.

im suprised Anthem Paid for THX
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post #32 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

True and also all you have to do is look at the test reports on various receivers to know that they COULD meet those specs. A few I can think of right off the top is the Denon 4308CI or even the 3808CI. I'm sure there others out there that would also pass THX certification easily, just not worth the additional cost for liscensing. Have no idea what those cost are but evidently those makers feel their products are worthy enough without paying for it. Read the full test reports on products and not just reviews or personal preferences from online or magazines to determine the real value of a product.

I own denon myself (denon-avp and denon-poa) both are THX, my personal guess is even on the 3808CI its more the extra cost and delay of doing the process that stops them from doing it than the $3 to $5 extra in cost per unit.

Time to market is very important esp. for a frontrunner like denon who likes to be first with things (same with onkyo and a few others).

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post #33 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

im suprised Anthem Paid for THX

why they get something in return, here is anthem on the thx process. Maybe some brands don't mind or even prefer if some external (second level) testing is done to catch mistakes and result in a better product ?

Let me note for myself owning a $$ pre/pro and amp, i think THX should test more. I would love to pay $250 more on my AVP and other units if for example all this HDMI mess would not have happened over the last 3 to 4 years.

----
Nick Platsis from Anthem Audio Video:

"The THX Ultra2 spec has tougher standards compared to the other licensing bodies, for example higher output swings are required, especially for the subwoofer channel. On the video side, no one else tests it. It's good that someone does, for example some manufacturers may take the bandwidth of a video switch and try to pass that on as the bandwidth of the whole circuit from input jack to output jack. Regardless, it's not difficult to meet any of these standards unless attempting to do it on the cheap or there's an element of laziness somewhere.

The challenge is integrating every single option that THX, Dolby, and DTS have to offer while maintaining user friendly operation and preventing conflicts between the various requirements. Then, when more processing options appear on the scene, it starts all over. Luckily, the people at THX are great to work with."
------------

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post #34 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 09:45 AM
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THX has also brought to market a lot of technology over the years that has improved the physical listening experience:

http://www.thx.com/technologies/index.html

People seem to ignore this while bashing the certification process. Part of the certification process allows the OEMs to incorporate this technology into their products vice developing something similar on their own.
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post #35 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 10:13 AM
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one thing I've noticed is that thx ultra 2 plus certified receivers usually have better amp sections, draw more power and weight more. I don't know if this is because they are tested to play a reference level with little distortion in a 3000sq feet room or what, but that's gotta count for something. you also get the thx listening modes on top of what your receiver offers, so more options for the user.

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post #36 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by perpetual View Post

one thing I've noticed is that thx ultra 2 plus certified receivers usually have better amp sections, draw more power and weight more.

what happen to the Onkyo 806?
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post #37 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

why they get something in return, here is anthem on the thx process. Maybe some brands don't mind or even prefer if some external (second level) testing is done to catch mistakes and result in a better product ?

Let me note for myself owning a $$ pre/pro and amp, i think THX should test more. I would love to pay $250 more on my AVP and other units if for example all this HDMI mess would not have happened over the last 3 to 4 years.

----
Nick Platsis from Anthem Audio Video:

"The THX Ultra2 spec has tougher standards compared to the other licensing bodies, for example higher output swings are required, especially for the subwoofer channel. On the video side, no one else tests it. It's good that someone does, for example some manufacturers may take the bandwidth of a video switch and try to pass that on as the bandwidth of the whole circuit from input jack to output jack. Regardless, it's not difficult to meet any of these standards unless attempting to do it on the cheap or there's an element of laziness somewhere.

The challenge is integrating every single option that THX, Dolby, and DTS have to offer while maintaining user friendly operation and preventing conflicts between the various requirements. Then, when more processing options appear on the scene, it starts all over. Luckily, the people at THX are great to work with."
------------

FYI - - Here is a link to the article I believe that danielo got that quote (it is contained within this long article): http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...to-use-it.html

I assume that most of you have read this very detailed essay about THX Certification processes, but based on the responses in this thread some have not.
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post #38 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

what happen to the Onkyo 806?


what happened to it?

btw I said usually.

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post #39 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by perpetual View Post

what happened to it?

btw I said usually.

Not positive but he will have to answer this for himself to be sure. Could it be the Major diet it went on as compared to its previous model(805)? Why yes that's problably it. How did they do it? Kept all previous certs. and lost a lot of weight in the process. Onkyo has some secrets up their sleeves that they are not telling anyone else. They could save all of us a lot of money especially for shipping charges if they ever need repairs. I would get off a lot cheaper shipping a 806 as compared to my 876 which is the same weight as the 805 was.
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post #40 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

Not positive but he will have to answer this for himself to be sure. Could it be the Major diet it went on as compared to its previous model(805)? Why yes that's problably it. How did they do it? Kept all previous certs. and lost a lot of weight in the process. Onkyo has some secrets up their sleeves that they are not telling anyone else. They could save all of us a lot of money especially for shipping charges if they ever need repairs. I would get off a lot cheaper shipping a 806 as compared to my 876 which is the same weight as the 805 was.


yeah I read something about that. I guess the notion of losing weight to stay healthy doesn't translate well to receivers.

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post #41 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by perpetual View Post

yeah I read something about that. I guess the notion of losing weight to stay healthy doesn't translate well to receivers.

Not usually unless they went with digital amps. A good example from this year is the new Yamaha's. These things are anorexic compared to their previous models. And I'm a Yamaha fan.
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post #42 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 12:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

what happen to the Onkyo 806?

Exactly. That receiver was THX Ultra 2 rated and it's pathetic amp section could barely fill a 10 by 15 room.
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post #43 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 12:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DigitalGriffin View Post

That would be nothing of sheer stupidity for any manufacturer to do. For if some magazine does some basic testing on a production unit, and it falls short (ie: Output) then that company would be in serious trouble, and likely have all future licensing rights on all models revoked by THX.

I think you meant to say nothing but sheer stupidity. You lost me with your bad grammar and poor choice of words there. Heaven forbid someone actually check the components of units to make sure they are living up to the specs a certain stamp or license claims. That would be wildly inefficient and just plain HONEST.
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post #44 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 12:19 PM
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I think you meant to say nothing but sheer stupidity. You lost me with your bad grammar and poor choice of words there. Heaven forbid someone actually check the components of units to make sure they are living up to the specs a certain stamp or license claims. That would be wildly inefficient and just plain HONEST.

I understand that THX has an immediate opening for a "certified resistor inspector." Maybe you should apply.
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post #45 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 12:25 PM
 
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I understand that THX has an immediate opening for a "certified resistor inspector." Maybe you should apply.

Lol. It's okay bro. I know we should just trust the THX logo which is only based on a prototype meeting certain specifications. The manufacturers are on the honor system when it comes to all of their future manufactured units meeting the specs of the prototype unit on a consistent basis.

But the manufacturers are good, honest people that will never lie nor would they sell items with substandard parts to increase their profit margins
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post #46 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

Lol. It's okay bro. I know we should just trust the THX logo which is only based on a prototype meeting certain specifications. The manufacturers are on the honor system when it comes to all of their future manufactured units meeting the specs of the prototype unit on a consistent basis.

But the manufacturers are good, honest people that will never lie nor would they sell items with substandard parts to increase their profit margins

this is why we demo products because we cannot take them on their word. ex. onkyo 805 one of the best all time receivers for the money vs onkyo 806 one of the worst of all time. both bear the same thx logo almost identical features but performed totaly different.
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post #47 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 01:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

this is why we demo products because we cannot take them on their word. ex. onkyo 805 one of the best all time receivers for the money vs onkyo 806 one of the worst of all time. both bear the same thx logo almost identical features but performed totaly different.


I wholeheartedly agree. Someone gets it.
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post #48 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 04:05 PM
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Lol. It's okay bro. I know we should just trust the THX logo which is only based on a prototype meeting certain specifications. The manufacturers are on the honor system when it comes to all of their future manufactured units meeting the specs of the prototype unit on a consistent basis.

But the manufacturers are good, honest people that will never lie nor would they sell items with substandard parts to increase their profit margins

What world do you live in? Certainly not the real world. Just think for a second what you are advocating. Ok, take longer if you need to.

How many years has the THX certification program been in existance? How many different designs (AVRs, Pre-Pros, speakers, subs, DVD players, TVs, etc.) do you think have been certified in that time? Now, how many of those designs have been built and sold to the listening/viewing public? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Are you seriously claiming that THX should check each and every one of thoses pieces of gear as they roll of the assembly line? No sane person would even consider that. Now, if you were to say that THX should randomly spot check things, that is more reasonable. How do you know that they don't already do that? Their certification specs are treated as proprietary information. I would have to believe that the details of the entire certification process are proprietary and would not be revealed to the manufacturers or the general public.

I do know that THX will re-inspect a THX certified movie theater if there is reasonable suspicion that the theater is not adhering to the THX specifications. That happed to a local theater in my area. When they opened, they were the first and only THX certified theater in the area. They looked and sounded phenomenal. However, after several years, their performance slipped. Someone may have complained, and soon after they lost their THX certification. I would be willing to bet that THX would do the same with an audio manufacturer if these was a valid reason to do so. Keep in mind that if a slip occurred, both THX's and the manufacturer's reputation could be damaged. Do you seriously believe anyone is going to let that happen?
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post #49 of 63 Old 01-08-2010, 04:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

What world do you live in? Certainly not the real world. Just think for a second what you are advocating. Ok, take longer if you need to.

How many years has the THX certification program been in existance? How many different designs (AVRs, Pre-Pros, speakers, subs, DVD players, TVs, etc.) do you think have been certified in that time? Now, how many of those designs have been built and sold to the listening/viewing public? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Are you seriously claiming that THX should check each and every one of thoses pieces of gear as they roll of the assembly line? No sane person would even consider that. Now, if you were to say that THX should randomly spot check things, that is more reasonable. How do you know that they don't already do that? Their certification specs are treated as proprietary information. I would have to believe that the details of the entire certification process are proprietary and would not be revealed to the manufacturers or the general public.

I do know that THX will re-inspect a THX certified movie theater if there is reasonable suspicion that the theater is not adhering to the THX specifications. That happed to a local theater in my area. When they opened, they were the first and only THX certified theater in the area. They looked and sounded phenomenal. However, after several years, their performance slipped. Someone may have complained, and soon after they lost their THX certification. I would be willing to bet that THX would do the same with an audio manufacturer if these was a valid reason to do so. Keep in mind that if a slip occurred, both THX's and the manufacturer's reputation could be damaged. Do you seriously believe anyone is going to let that happen?

Oh no. I don't think any manufacturer would slowly let the quality of their products decrease over time. I'm also sure THX does have someone spot check at least 1 out of every 1000 units produced with their famous logo attached to it.

Nothing like letting someone use your namesake to plaster it all over their products then not ever checking on the manufacturer to make sure they are continuously adhering to your standards. I mean manufacturers would never cut corners would they? That would surely erode consumer loyalty over time. Coughgeneralmotorscough.
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post #50 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

oh know. I don't think any manufacturer would slowly let the quality of their products decrease over time. I'm also sure THX does have someone spot check at least 1 out of every 1000 units produced with their famous logo attached to it.

Nothing like letting someone use your namesake to plaster it all over their products then not ever checking on the manufacturer to make sure they are continuously adhering to your standards. I mean manufacturers would never cut corners would they? That would surely erode consumer loyalty over time. Coughgeneralmotorscough.

Again your comment was that its pr. You now feel that some (or all brands) are playing games after the testing. If you feel that onkyo has broken their license with THX why don't you just mail thx. Explain why you feel that your Ultra2 unit doesn't perform and see what happens ?

THX is still the only thing there is its not like we can trust numbers given in other marketing that comes with most units these days.

I am happy to report that my Ultra2 Amp works fine but its a healty 137lbs .

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post #51 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 02:35 AM
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Maybe you could email THX as mentioned above, and ask why the 806 is THX Ultra 2 and yet does not seem to manage reference level in a compliant room?

There's a variable you may not have considered - speakers. I could take a guess that you also need THX speakers to meet reference SPL levels?

I have never owned Ultra 2, so I can't speak with a lot of knowledge of the subject.

My Yamaha RX-V3900 has in it's lineage the 2600, which was select 2 certified, I think. I can turn it up to reference level, but it does not sound as good as at lower levels. I have wondered if I have the same problem - no THX certified sub or speakers (or speakers which meet the efficiency/impedance of THX speakers.)

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post #52 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

If you feel that onkyo has broken their license with THX why don't you just mail thx. Explain why you feel that your Ultra2 unit doesn't perform and see what happens ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Maybe you could email THX as mentioned above, and ask why the 806 is THX Ultra 2 and yet does not seem to manage reference level in a compliant room?

Because it is easier to just sit back and whine and make ludicrous statements that have no basis in fact and show no understanding of the topic at hand.

Personally, I'd like to know why questions like "What is X?" always turn into "Why X sucks"?
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post #53 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 08:56 AM
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Speculation is a great hobby IMO. But the speculator needs be a bit flexible if they feel their position is under attack, when they have no proof.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #54 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 11:23 AM
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I would think more of THX if they published information about exactly what it is they do to certify their products. None of my THX products come with a statement of results or a list of standards that were adhered to. If I say "show me" they all come up empty. So near as I can tell, I'm paying more to take it on George Lucas's word that my product is better, and he does not want to show me anything other than marketing fluff on the web site to back it up.

Therefore my answer to the OP is: "THX is a marketing label that costs a lot of money. It may or may not have resulted in the product carrying it turning out any better but if you are friends with George then you may want to check with him."
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post #55 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 11:55 AM
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I went into a B&W speaker store one time. The salesman said George Lucas was trying to get B&W to buy into the THX thing. But that B&W told Lucas to go away, that their speakers didn't need it. Not sure how true this "story" was by the salesman.
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post #56 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 12:45 PM
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I'm still sticking to the read the test reports on whatever AVR,Amp,Display, or whatever it is you buy. No opinions, real world test reports with measurements of all processes being used. If they are comparable or at least close to whats stated whether 2,5, or 7 channels driven buy that one. I'm not talking about something like the Pioneer 1019 and others that says 120 watt/channel or whatever they claim and then falls off to 28 watts with 5 either. There are many AVR's and amps out there that do what they claim or get very close with all channels driven that doesn't need George Lucas's stamp of approval. As for companies being able to test each of their built units anyone that believes this can be done is naive. Impossible,impractible,and cost prohibitive. You don't need the THX seal to get quality components. Most of the very best don't anyway. JMHO.
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post #57 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

oh know. I don't think any manufacturer would slowly let the quality of their products decrease over time. I'm also sure THX does have someone spot check at least 1 out of every 1000 units produced with their famous logo attached to it.

Nothing like letting someone use your namesake to plaster it all over their products then not ever checking on the manufacturer to make sure they are continuously adhering to your standards. I mean manufacturers would never cut corners would they? That would surely erode consumer loyalty over time. Coughgeneralmotorscough.

You start out with one thought and then completely change your mind and claim something else. When THX certifies a product, that's the product that goes into production. It's built the same way on the assembly line and any differences/problems are defects rather than a company trying to cut corners. What you're suggesting is that you just bought a 6-cylinder car but the car company put a 4-cylinder engine into it. What you're suggesting is actually illegal and a company would have to worry about losing a lot more than its THX cert. Please stop with the conspiracy theories and BS.

For anyone really interested in why THX is so important and not a marketing gimmick, please read the link posted by 'sptrout' in an earlier post. Just because something isn't THX certified doesn't mean that it can't outperform a THX certified piece of equipment. However in the game of home audio, where there's more snake oil than you can shake a stick at, it's nice to know that you don't need to take a "chance" or guess or trust various specs. You know it's certified and you know the entire system will work together properly if every piece of equipment used is certified. There's a lot more to it than that, obviously.

The world of audio would be far worse off if THX had never existed, IMHO.

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post #58 of 63 Old 01-09-2010, 02:24 PM
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Why would people bash THX as a company? Their standards are their standards, and what happens after that is on the said manufacturer if they deviate from them. Lets say a prototype's design meets THX standards, but the manufacturer actually decides to switch to non tested components without THX's knowledge, again that is ALL on the manufacturer. You can't take the resultant decrease or fluctuation of performance as a reason to label the certification in and of itself as being fluff. A device not performing consistently in line with the claimed specs would put both companies in a bad light yes, but that still doesn't change the validity of the testing parameters for a design that is supposed to be the same across the board. This is really the same with anything that features an outside parties technology or design process. If you want to bash, at least come with a logical argument.
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post #59 of 63 Old 01-10-2010, 01:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinx99 View Post

I would think more of THX if they published information about exactly what it is they do to certify their products. None of my THX products come with a statement of results or a list of standards that were adhered to. If I say "show me" they all come up empty. So near as I can tell, I'm paying more to take it on George Lucas's word that my product is better, and he does not want to show me anything other than marketing fluff on the web site to back it up.

Therefore my answer to the OP is: "THX is a marketing label that costs a lot of money. It may or may not have resulted in the product carrying it turning out any better but if you are friends with George then you may want to check with him."

Exactamundo.
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post #60 of 63 Old 01-10-2010, 02:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///3oris View Post

You start out with one thought and then completely change your mind and claim something else. When THX certifies a product, that's the product that goes into production. It's built the same way on the assembly line and any differences/problems are defects rather than a company trying to cut corners. What you're suggesting is that you just bought a 6-cylinder car but the car company put a 4-cylinder engine into it. What you're suggesting is actually illegal and a company would have to worry about losing a lot more than its THX cert. Please stop with the conspiracy theories and BS.

.

It's only BS when someone else's views differ from your own. I already stated it was my opinion. Not the law. If you can not understand that and my posts upset you that much then I suggest you get a life outside your home theater room.
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