Which are the TRUE X.2 receivers that apply separate sub trim/calibration? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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There are more and more receivers with the X.2 designation (7.2, 9.2); however, I hear that not all apply individual calibrations to EACH sub in a dual sub set-up.

I wanted to have a list complied of the newer receivers that are able to apply separate filters/calibrations to EACH sub.
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post #2 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

There are more and more receivers with the X.2 designation (7.2, 9.2); however, I hear that not all apply individual calibrations to EACH sub in a dual sub set-up.

I wanted to have a list complied of the newer receivers that are able to apply separate filters/calibrations to EACH sub.

Onkyo 1007, 3007, 5007, 5507

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post #3 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 09:43 AM
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Audyssey technology will apply separate distances to different subs but EQ's them as a system because they will be used as such. It is actually suppose to work better that way. So IF these receivers do this (I have no experience) then it will be individual distances only
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post #4 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Audyssey technology will apply separate distances to different subs but EQ's them as a system because they will be used as such. It is actually suppose to work better that way. So IF these receivers do this (I have no experience) then it will be individual distances only

for the onkyo's xxx7's Audyssey will adjust not only level, but also delay and most importantly the room correction filter for each sub individually.

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post #5 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

for the onkyo's xxx7's Audyssey will adjust not only level, but also delay and most importantly the room correction filter for each sub individually.

Did you get this from chris at audyssey?

Their flagship models (sub equalizer and as-eq1) combine filters. Years of research showed them this was best.

Why would they put more expensive but less effective technology into a receiver?
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post #6 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 10:34 AM
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yes, this is accurate according to Chris.

The X.2 Onkyo receivers (X007) will ping each sub separately, apply distance/delay and level independently, but they also then EQ them independently (and NOT the summed response).

With the standalone Audyssey SubEQ products, although the distance/level is set independently, you get your choice for how to handle the EQ filters (EQ the two as a summed response or EQ them separately) although you are correct that the "summed" approach is recommended by Audyssey, and is the default option on these products.

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post #7 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 10:57 AM
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Good to know. It eliminates the need for that upgrade ha.

I want separate distances but don't want the receiver to mess up what the as-eq1 already did to the summed response
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post #8 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

There are more and more receivers with the X.2 designation (7.2, 9.2); however, I hear that not all apply individual calibrations to EACH sub in a dual sub set-up.

I wanted to have a list complied of the newer receivers that are able to apply separate filters/calibrations to EACH sub.

The HK AVR745 introduced in 2006 has 2 unique subwoofers output, and the HK AVR7550HD released about 6 months has added near & far field measurements in their EZ/SET/EQ III. The HK EQ software was done by the JBL pro audio DSP development team, the best we have used for leveling out low frequency resonances, peaks and nodes...

Be careful here..
Many AVRs claiming dual subwoofer outputs actually are just (2) RCA sub outputs in parallel...
Only marketing fluff..
If you want to do this, just run down to Radio Shack and get their Y RCA adapter costs about $1.99..

Just my $0.01...
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post #9 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

There are more and more receivers with the X.2 designation (7.2, 9.2); however, I hear that not all apply individual calibrations to EACH sub in a dual sub set-up.

I wanted to have a list complied of the newer receivers that are able to apply separate filters/calibrations to EACH sub.

Or just keep your avr and add an as-eq1
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post #10 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yes, this is accurate according to Chris.

The X.2 Onkyo receivers (X007) will ping each sub separately, apply distance/delay and level independently, but they also then EQ them independently (and NOT the summed response).

With the standalone Audyssey SubEQ products, although the distance/level is set independently, you get your choice for how to handle the EQ filters (EQ the two as a summed response or EQ them separately) although you are correct that the "summed" approach is recommended by Audyssey, and is the default option on these products.


is this unique to onkyo products...?

was this offered to denon as an option and turned down, or simply too new a technology to make denon's latest lineup...?
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post #11 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Be careful here..
Many AVRs claiming dual subwoofer outputs actually are just (2) RCA sub outputs in parallel...
Only marketing fluff..
If you want to do this, just run down to Radio Shack and get their Y RCA adapter costs about $1.99..

Just my $0.01...


That is EXACTLY why I started this thread.

Chris (with Audyssey) is the one that told me that not all X.2 designations work the same with Audyssey, and to research which new receivers actually apply separate calibrations to each sub....aside from setting the level.
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post #12 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

is this unique to onkyo products...?

was this offered to denon as an option and turned down, or simply too new a technology to make denon's latest lineup...?

I don't know who turned down what, I don't work for Onkyo, Denon, or Audyssey

Curiously, the Onkyo's approach to it isn't 100% "optimal" either. So it's sort of trade-off between the two approaches.

1) the approach Onkyo took with the x007 models is to treat the subs totally independently. That means different distances, level matching, and EQ filters. However, the last part (separate EQ filtering) is actually suboptimal, as Audyssey's research strongly supports the idea of EQ'ing the two (or three or however many) subs together as a summed response.

2) the Denon approach (BTW this only applies to the 4810, the higher-end 5308 and the AVP actually can do fully independent sub EQ) is to just leave them as a summed response. So it's up to the user to level match manually first, and do your best to time align (e.g. getting equal distance from 1st measurement point), but then in the end EQ'ing the two subs together as one summed unit is actually the better way to do it.

Either way should provide excellent results though.

The standalone Sub EQ products from Audyssey give you the option of either way. The recommended "best" approach is to (1) first time/align and level match independently and then (2) EQ the summed response. So, in other words, neither of the consumer AVR implementations give you the full "optimal" method.

So, if that is a huge concern, do as goonstopher suggests above and add the AS-EQ1 to your existing setup and then ANY receiver will work

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post #13 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 01:37 PM
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With Onkyo and independent sub outs, calibrate each sub seperately for level trim, etc. Then connect both subs to one sub out via a y cable and let audyssey calibrate the summed response. No?


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post #14 of 55 Old 01-17-2010, 10:08 PM
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No. Re-read what I just wrote, I don't know how I could say it any more clearly

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post #15 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 01:17 AM
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There are none, as "TRUE X.2" would be the definition for 2 LFE channel inputs.

As to receivers with multiple subwoofer outputs that are independently processed and calibrated, the Onkyos above are the only ones which I've heard support that.
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post #16 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

There are none, as "TRUE X.2" would be the definition for 2 LFE channel inputs.

whos definition?

Quote:


As to receivers with multiple subwoofer outputs that are independently processed and calibrated, the Onkyos above are the only ones which I've heard support that.

no, Anthem has arc for there Pre Pro's and new receivers. and Paradigm has the PBK-1 for there subwoofers.

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post #17 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No. Re-read what I just wrote, I don't know how I could say it any more clearly

Oh, I see. But why couldn't you do what I said, then copy the eq filter settings from sub out 1 (where you eq'ed the summed response using y cable) and apply the same to sub out 2. Then connect both subs to the two outputs. Maybe then you could get the benefit of the individual trim level settings, but also the filter for the summed response on both sub outs.


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post #18 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

whos definition?

The x.y number format refers to discrete audio channels, not matrixed or derived channels. If it referred simply to the number of speakers that could be connected, I could have a 70.20 system by using enough splitters and amps. I could even use separate equalizers on each channel, if I wanted.

Quote:


no, Anthem has arc for there Pre Pro's and new receivers. and Paradigm has the PBK-1 for there subwoofers.

I specifically referred to systems that "I am aware of," not that no others exist. You're telling me that I'm incorrect concerning what I'm aware of?
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post #19 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 06:26 AM
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I think that for the time being you are going to find quite a bit of variation in how AVRs treat their dual sub outs. Some are simply going to treat them identically and using them will not be any different than using a Y-splitter. And at the other extreme will be those that allow complete and independent adjustment of the two outputs including separate EQ. And then there will be those that are in between those two extremes that may allow individual distance and/or level settings but not individual EQ capabilities.

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post #20 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

So it's up to the user to level match manually first...........

The standalone Sub EQ products from Audyssey give you the option of either way. The recommended "best" approach is to (1).........level match independently...........

Whether level-matching dual subs is even the best approach is arguable, btw. A strong case can be made for gain-matching, instead, which would not even be allowed (or possible) with a device that adjusts the levels and/or EQs the outputs independently.

And level-matching with some sort of mixed tone prior to the application of "summed" EQ is a bit useless, as well. The relative levels of the two subs will change once the EQ is applied. (Which makes gain-matching all the more attractive.)

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post #21 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Sivadselim, I am glad you stopped by because I was about to bring up something I have seen you point out in the past. I wanted to clarify that my "True X.2" statement can be argued because at this time I don't believe that any recorded format has INDEPENDENT information going to each sub.

Yes, this thread is focused on those receivers which process each sub independently in a dual sub set-up; however, I understand a "true" x.2 FORMAT does not exist.

I don't want to de-rail the thread, but in Siv fashion, it can also be debated if it is better to have dual subs eq'd as individuals OR eq'd as summed.
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post #22 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

Sivadselim, I am glad you stopped by because I was about to bring up something I have seen you point out in the past.

And what is that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

I just wanted to briefly comment that my "True X.2" statement can be argued because at this time I don't believe that any recorded format has INDEPENDENT information going to each sub.

What "statement"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

Yes, this thread is focused on those receivers which process each sub independently in a dual sub set-up; however, I understand a "true" x.2 FORMAT does not exist.

That there is really no such thing as "x.2" is sort of irrelevant to whether being able to independently adjust the distance, levels and EQ of two separate subwoofer outputs MIGHT be useful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

I don't want to de-rail the thread, but in Siv fashion, it can also be debated if it is better to have dual subs eq'd as individuals OR eq'd as summed.

Wait, now, don't back me into this! What do you mean by "in Siv fashion", anyway?

There are several issues, here:

1) Is it really beneficial to be able to apply two separate distance settings. This must be answered in the context of a manual and automated calibration.

2.) Is it beneficial to be able to adjust the levels independently? If you want to level match? Gain match?

3.) Is it beneficial to be able to EQ independently?


Frankly, whether any of those capabilities is really a "plus" is arguable, IMO.

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post #23 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 07:55 AM
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Siv - I was just pointing out what Audyssey recommends since we were discussing the various approaches in Audyssey equipped units, I realize there is much debate about what truly is "optimal".

A question for you, for my own edification -- can you clarify level match vs gain match? I don't know enough about this stuff to understand the full nuance of the distinction.

RoboRay - I see you had to drag in that stupid pedantic argument from the other thread also to show how precise you are. We get it. The .1 is the LFE channel. Congratulations. Now, can you accept the fact that we are talking about OUTPUT CHANNELS and not discrete dual-LFE content, and how different AVR's handle dual sub outputs, which should have been obvious from the context of this thread? We all get the point about the "there is only one .1 channel" thing. Thank you.

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post #24 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:04 AM
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Running stereo front subs (.2) on my Yamaha RX-Z9 there are separate test tones for the right and left subs and you can trim the level as well as reverse phase for both independently. I believe the Z11 is the same way.
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post #25 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:06 AM
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DSP technology is a wonderfull thing. .2 out can be dirrived from .1 input. Case closed there.

I just thought I'd get at least one of my own in against the .1 only dude.

I love the idea of separated L/R below the crose over point myself.
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post #26 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

I understand a "true" x.2 FORMAT does not exist.

Your original post made it plenty clear that you were talking about playback systems (specifically: receivers with multi-sub outputs), not delivery formats. No need to re-explain for one poster that is willfully ignoring the context of the entire thread. The X.x nomenclature is just as often used as a shorthand to describe layouts (speakes/subs) as it is to describe discrete delivery channels (main/LFE).

Sanjay
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post #27 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Siv - I was just pointing out what Audyssey recommends since we were discussing the various approaches in Audyssey equipped units, I realize there is much debate about what truly is "optimal".

I understand. I brought it up, though, not necessarily because it is specifically relevant to the discussion, but as 'food for thought'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

A question for you, for my own edification -- can you clarify level match vs gain match? I don't know enough about this stuff to understand the full nuance of the distinction.

Level matching adjusts the subs, using some sort of tone, to contribute equally to the overall SPL as measured at a particular spot; usually 'the sweet spot'. Gain matching adjusts each sub so that only their absolute output is the same. Exactly how much each sub might contribute to the overall SPL as measured at the sweet spot would be dictated by, among other things, each subs individual interaction with the room. The purported benefit of gain-matching is that each sub is working absolutely identically, with the same exact headroom constraints.

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post #28 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Running stereo front subs (.2) on my Yamaha RX-Z9............

What do you mean by "stereo front subs"? Does your AVR route only the rerouted bass from the right front or surround channels to the sub that that is on the right side and only the rerouted bass from the left front or surround channels to the sub that that is on the left side?

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post #29 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Sanjay! I guess I was trying to be proactive because I have seen how some members like to dissect and de-rail threads over alphabet soup .

Batpig, I will try and take a stab at that question:

gain match: both subs are MATCHED in terms of identical gain/level AT the sub

level match: both subs are MATCHED in terms of SPL regardless of gain/level at the sub

Any of the X.2 receivers should be able to allow GAIN MATCHING of dual subs because they can at least apply different levels to each sub. A "True X.2" sub should be able to apply a separate level AND independent calibration/filters to each sub.

I guess to stay on topic, it seems that the Onkyo NR-*007 receivers are definitely on the list.
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post #30 of 55 Old 01-18-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

What do you mean by "stereo front subs"? Does your AVR route only the rerouted bass from the right front or surround channels to the sub that that is on the right side and only the rerouted bass from the left front or surround channels to the sub that that is on the left side?

Well-That's what Yamaha calls it although it's unclear how they use it in processing. Here's the subwoofer selection choices from the manual:

Front&Rear,Stereo,Monaural,None.
"Select Stereo if your 2 subwoofers are in the front right and left sound fields"
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