Help on deciding with which Receiver to get.... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I am replacing a Onkyo TX-SR804 that I have not been very happy with at all...

I am looking at the Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K and the Onkyo TX-SR607 but the thing is that I only want to use 5 speakers instead of 7 this time... The biggest reason that I didnt like the TX-SR804 was it didnt put out the bass that I would have liked when I listened to Music and I tried every thing....

I want something that puts out great bass for my music..Hell, I have a old 1977 model Pioneer that put the Onkyo TX-SR804 to shame when it came to Music..lol

I still want it for Movies and games PS3,XBOX....

Any suggestions would be great.....
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post #2 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 04:19 PM
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Take a look at the Denon 590/1610 also. Both have a better (IMO) Audyssey MultEQ.
The Onkyo RC160 is virtually the same machine as the 607 - a few less watts and no front panel quick connects. No big deal for most users.

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #3 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 05:04 PM
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How does that relate to the Denon AVR 2310 CI?

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post #4 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DobyG View Post

How does that relate to the Denon AVR 2310 CI?

The 2310 wasn't/isn't part of the conversation.

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #5 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

Take a look at the Denon 590/1610 also. Both have a better (IMO) Audyssey MultEQ.
The Onkyo RC160 is virtually the same machine as the 607 - a few less watts and no front panel quick connects. No big deal for most users.

Thanks, I will be sure to check into them.... They look great
I just wish it had a little more watts to them.. but, ol'well....
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post #6 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by III Zombi3 III View Post

Thanks, I will be sure to check into them.... They look great
I just wish it had a little more watts to them.. but, ol'well....

Don't buy an AVR because of it's power ratings. The differences between 50wpc and 100wpc isn't as big a deal as you might think. If your speakers are 90db efficient you will get 90db at one meter with one watt. That is pretty loud. For 3db more sound you need to double the power - 2 watts in this case. For 96db it now takes 4 watts. Every 3db takes double the power. So you can see that the difference between 50wpc and 100wpc isn't much as it pertains to sound level. As you probably don't listen at one meter from your speakers you'll need more than 4wpc at your listening position to make adequate sound levels.

Read this article for more information.

If you have average efficiency speakers in the range of 88-92db 50-75wpc is more than enough for normal listening.

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post #7 of 29 Old 02-09-2010, 09:46 PM
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I'm a bit confused. Even though it is a newer model, the 607 should be a step down from an 804. Granted, the 607 has HDMI, TrueHD, etc... But I just can't see how a 607 would offer better sound for music, especially bass? Unless you're hoping that the Audyssey on the 607 makes that big of a difference. It just seems like you'll spend even more more to have the same problem with a new receiver than you have with the current model. What speakers do you have and what have you tried to improve bass response with your current setup? Without at least considering these things, I think you're just wasting your money by buying a new AVR.
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post #8 of 29 Old 02-10-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz_fan View Post

What speakers do you have and what have you tried to improve bass response with your current setup? Without at least considering these things, I think you're just wasting your money by buying a new AVR.

Agreed. The answer might be as simple as a larger and more powerful subwoofer to fix your bass problem.

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post #9 of 29 Old 02-10-2010, 08:37 AM
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Just recently bought the Denon AVR790 (same as 1910). I had an Onkyo SR605, good bang for buck but I know where the OP is coming from.

This is more than enough power for my apartment. The bass? No problems with that!

If you purchase from Best Buy or the like, you have 30 day return policy if you aren't satisfied. If the price goes down within the 30 days, you can recover the difference.
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post #10 of 29 Old 02-10-2010, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmii View Post

agreed. The answer might be as simple as a larger and more powerful subwoofer to fix your bass problem.

+1

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post #11 of 29 Old 02-10-2010, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz_fan View Post

I'm a bit confused. Even though it is a newer model, the 607 should be a step down from an 804. Granted, the 607 has HDMI, TrueHD, etc... But I just can't see how a 607 would offer better sound for music, especially bass? Unless you're hoping that the Audyssey on the 607 makes that big of a difference. It just seems like you'll spend even more more to have the same problem with a new receiver than you have with the current model. What speakers do you have and what have you tried to improve bass response with your current setup? Without at least considering these things, I think you're just wasting your money by buying a new AVR.

The Speakers that I hooked up are Bose 4001 Series for the front and Bose 2001 Series for the rear. I also have Fluance SXHTB+ 5 Speaker Surround Sound Home Theater System that im not using....

I have cranked the bass all way up, adjusted my EQ so it would put out more bass even turn off the Sub on my Receiver,so that they wouldnt be no bass going to it. I even switched 8 ohms to 4 ohms.......

I have used the mic. that came with the receiver to set my speakers and adjusted them with a SPL Meter...

I have hooked up both different Speakers and I still get the same results....

When I hooked them up to my old "77 Pioneer, They sound GREAT!!!!! Dunno?????
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post #12 of 29 Old 02-10-2010, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMII View Post

Agreed. The answer might be as simple as a larger and more powerful subwoofer to fix your bass problem.

When I had my JBL E250P hooked up, Before it died on me!!!! I had plenty of Bass....I just dont want to rely on a Sub for all my Bass...
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post #13 of 29 Old 02-11-2010, 02:20 PM
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well, there's your problem. First, your old system may not support the dynamic range of modern digital formats, so it may be louder, but not better.

But really... you either need speakers with a large enough woofer to provide the bass you want, or you get a sub. changing out your AVR won't change that equation. Basically, you're bringing a knife to a gun fight...
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post #14 of 29 Old 02-11-2010, 04:14 PM
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I hear about people who say they get more bass from their amp. I think sometimes that might be wishful thinking. My reason for saying this is at moderate levels, your receiver/amp should be putting out the same signal as a bigger amp. Some people will talk about high current. But they seem to ignore Ohm's law. Ohm's law tells us that if voltage is known, and impedance is known (speaker dependent,) then current is known. So having double the power helps not at all if you don't need it, IMO.

Some people might bring up slew rate. But slew rate is BEST at lower frequencies. So why would any competent amp/receiver not be able to match the slew rate of the lower harmonics?

There's damping factor. Maybe some recievers/amps have a higher than normal output impedance and can't control the speaker cones as well. That's not a matter of power though. That's dictated 100% by output impedance AFAIK, which is design dependent.

I would think a competent powered sub would be your best plan for better bass.

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post #15 of 29 Old 02-11-2010, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I hear about people who say they get more bass from their amp. I think sometimes that might be wishful thinking.

Yah think?

There is so much nonsense on these forums, it's very hard for a newbie to get factual information.
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post #16 of 29 Old 02-12-2010, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I hear about people who say they get more bass from their amp. I think sometimes that might be wishful thinking. My reason for saying this is at moderate levels, your receiver/amp should be putting out the same signal as a bigger amp. Some people will talk about high current. But they seem to ignore Ohm's law. Ohm's law tells us that if voltage is known, and impedance is known (speaker dependent,) then current is known. So having double the power helps not at all if you don't need it, IMO.

Some people might bring up slew rate. But slew rate is BEST at lower frequencies. So why would any competent amp/receiver not be able to match the slew rate of the lower harmonics?

There's damping factor. Maybe some recievers/amps have a higher than normal output impedance and can't control the speaker cones as well. That's not a matter of power though. That's dictated 100% by output impedance AFAIK, which is design dependent.

I would think a competent powered sub would be your best plan for better bass.

I'm confused now, I always thought that you shouldn't have your Sub over powering your Speakers but kinda matching them ?????

My Speakers isn't putting out hardly any Bass at all,When I know they can put out much more then what they are......

The "least Bass" I'm getting is from having every thing from the EQ the Bass cranked up to MAX, I just dont think that's right....

I am getting ready to get new Speakers http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-Ve...5973961&sr=1-2or these http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-Ve...5973961&sr=1-1
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post #17 of 29 Old 02-12-2010, 06:53 AM
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Do you have a Double Bass option? Basically the sub would get the 80hz and below as normal but the L/R speakers will get the full spectrum instead of being cut off below 80hz (if that is your cross-over point). I ask because I have the Onkyo 805 and I have this ability.

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post #18 of 29 Old 02-12-2010, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

Do you have a Double Bass option? Basically the sub would get the 80hz and below as normal but the L/R speakers will get the full spectrum instead of being cut off below 80hz (if that is your cross-over point). I ask because I have the Onkyo 805 and I have this ability.

Yes, Mine has that option and when I had My Sub hooked up, That's how I had it set....I still got very little Bass

Does your 805 put out Decent Bass??? if so, what size of Woofers does your Speakers have???
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post #19 of 29 Old 02-14-2010, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by III Zombi3 III View Post

Yes, Mine has that option and when I had My Sub hooked up, That's how I had it set....I still got very little Bass

Does your 805 put out Decent Bass??? if so, what size of Woofers does your Speakers have???

From what I've read, I really doubt this has anything to do with your receiver. Either you are physically incapable of adequately detecting low-frequency sound, you have the worst sub in the world, or you have something hooked up wrong. let's take a step back. You have the Onkyo 804, what sub were you using? The speakers you mentioned won't wow anyone with their lower-frequency response, but paired with a decent sub and set up correctly, you should get at least decent results. Let us know the sub you are using, and the re-run the Audyssey auto setup routine and let us know what it shows for results.
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post #20 of 29 Old 02-14-2010, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz_fan View Post

From what I've read, I really doubt this has anything to do with your receiver. Either you are physically incapable of adequately detecting low-frequency sound, you have the worst sub in the world, or you have something hooked up wrong. let's take a step back. You have the Onkyo 804, what sub were you using? The speakers you mentioned won't wow anyone with their lower-frequency response, but paired with a decent sub and set up correctly, you should get at least decent results. Let us know the sub you are using, and the re-run the Audyssey auto setup routine and let us know what it shows for results.

I did have a JBL E250P hooked up, It rocked the whole house but the amp died on me.
My problem was that my main fronts or My Surrounds wasn't putting out any bass at all, My Sub was doing all the work....I know for sure that my 2 main speakers can put out alot of Bass....
So,Now I have the sub turned off on My Receiver and just running 5.0 setup until My new Sub gets here.....
Now, I get just a little Bass but I have every thing cranked up...just to get a little bit of Bass...
I'm in the process of getting all new Speakers and a new Receiver with TrueHD and DTS-HD as we speak...
I am going to be putting the Receiver that I have now in My Daughters Room, Before I do that, I'm going to hook my new speakers up just to see if that is the problem...
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post #21 of 29 Old 02-14-2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by III Zombi3 III View Post

I did have a JBL E250P hooked up, It rocked the whole house but the amp died on me.
My problem was that my main fronts or My Surrounds wasn't putting out any bass at all, My Sub was doing all the work....I know for sure that my 2 main speakers can put out alot of Bass....
So,Now I have the sub turned off on My Receiver and just running 5.0 setup until My new Sub gets here.....
Now, I get just a little Bass but I have every thing cranked up...just to get a little bit of Bass...
I'm in the process of getting all new Speakers and a new Receiver with TrueHD and DTS-HD as we speak...
I am going to be putting the Receiver that I have now in My Daughters Room, Before I do that, I'm going to hook my new speakers up just to see if that is the problem...

Not a lot of info on your Bose speakers, so I have no idea what they're capable of. Unfortunately, Bose is notorious for not publishing specs on their products, either. But... Where do you have the cross-over set to?

Basically, if you're itching to spend some money, start with your front/center speakers. No AVR upgrade will make up for poor speakers. Unless actually broken, your current AVR is quite capable, but it can't make up for weak speakers with no low end.
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post #22 of 29 Old 02-15-2010, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The only thing that I can find out about My Speakers, that They are rated for 10-200 watts per channel, 4-8 ohms.
A power rating 100 watts and impedance 6 ohms.
It doesn't give me much more than that on the sticker.....

On My Receiver I have these settings....
Sub - No
Front - Fullband
Center - 60Hz
Surround - Fullband
Surround Back - None
LPF of LFE - 90Hz
Subwoofer Mode - Blank -------

(Speaker Distance)
Left 8ft.
Center 7ft.
Right 8ft.
Surround Right 8ft.
Surround Left 8ft.

The EQ settings that I am using now, just to get the most Bass is what I came up with Myself.....

(Left Channel) and (Right Channel)
80Hz +6dB
250Hz +5dB
800Hz +5dB
2.5kHz +4dB
8kHz +5dB

(Center Channel)
80Hz +5dB
250Hz +5dB
800Hz +4dB
2.5kHz +4dB
8kHz +5dB

(Surround Left and Right)
80Hz +6dB
250Hz +5dB
800Hz +5dB
2.5kHz +4dB
8kHz +5dB

My Auto EQ Settings are

(Left Channel)
60Hz -3dB
160Hz -4dB
315Hz -2dB
630Hz +2dB
8kHz +6dB

(Center Channel)
100Hz +6dB
200Hz -6dB
400Hz -2dB
800Hz +3dB
4kHz +4dB

(Right Channel)
60Hz -1dB
125Hz -4dB
400Hz -3dB
1.25kHz -1dB
10kHz +5dB

(Surround Right)
125Hz -3dB
400Hz +4dB
800Hz -2dB
1.6kHz +2dB
8kHz -2dB

(Surround Left)
80Hz -4dB
200Hz +3dB
400Hz +3dB
2.5kHz +2dB
8kHz -3dB

As you can tell, This is messed way up.........
Every time I use the Mic. to set my Speakers up, it gives Me something different.....
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post #23 of 29 Old 02-17-2010, 03:28 PM
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keep the AVR, ditch your speakers. You have a good receiver, but I suspect the speakers you are using just aren't up to the task. Look for some floorstanding towers, the Polk Monitor 70's are a great option on a budget. These sport a pair of 6.5" woofers which should address your base needs.
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post #24 of 29 Old 02-17-2010, 03:43 PM
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Theres your issue right there:

Sub : NO

change that to YES!~~~~~
AND then you will be able to change subwoofer mode to Double bass - change back your fronts to full band - redo audyssey and be amazed!!!

I just sold my 804 it had plenty of bass.
804 had issues all together different like bass getting a hum if hdmi connected (luckily didn't have much of a prob for me with this)
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post #25 of 29 Old 02-17-2010, 04:29 PM
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I don't like "double bass." I would think if you have a decent powered sub, you don't want to send bass to both your sub and your mains.

With no sub, if your settings are right, and you are not getting bass, blame your speakers. Some speakers have a limited bass response.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #26 of 29 Old 02-17-2010, 04:35 PM
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Im talking 2 channel music here - i've always found the best sound for music to be set to double base -

And why i like it in movies the lfe isn't (from what i understood) sending the .1 to the fronts as well in a movie, its just sending the music bass from the fronts to the sub so that when a dance track/music in general comes on in a movie you get some bass out of the sub when set to lfe only you never get to experience the good bass sound from music in movies only the effects bass gets sent to sub. Makes quite a difference.
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-18-2010, 06:56 AM
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Hi III zombie3 III,

From reading your post, it sounds like you are not happy with the bass output from your main speakers without having the subwoofer connected to your setup. I'm not familiar with Onkyo receivers, but I'm sure you have a stereo or direct mode. Turn it to one of these and play some reference music you are familiar with to see if the bass improves.

From the EQ settings you posted, I see there is nothing boosted under 80 hz. I always flatten out the EQ to listen to the music the way the recording studio meant it to be. The EQ should only be tweaked to compensate for your environment. Take your favorite music with you to a good audio store and listen to a lot of speakers to see which one you like the best. Speakers IMHO make the biggest difference to the individual listener.

You mentioned that you have all new speakers coming soon. Did you actually hear them before making your purchase?
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post #28 of 29 Old 02-18-2010, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thxac3 View Post

Hi III zombie3 III,

From reading your post, it sounds like you are not happy with the bass output from your main speakers without having the subwoofer connected to your setup. I'm not familiar with Onkyo receivers, but I'm sure you have a stereo or direct mode. Turn it to one of these and play some reference music you are familiar with to see if the bass improves.

From the EQ settings you posted, I see there is nothing boosted under 80 hz. I always flatten out the EQ to listen to the music the way the recording studio meant it to be. The EQ should only be tweaked to compensate for your environment. Take your favorite music with you to a good audio store and listen to a lot of speakers to see which one you like the best. Speakers IMHO make the biggest difference to the individual listener.

You mentioned that you have all new speakers coming soon. Did you actually hear them before making your purchase?

Well, Really I just ordered part of them...I ordered the center and surround...
But, I'm on the fence on which Front Speakers I want... I haven't heard either one..
I live in "BFE" I'm also trying to decide on which Sub to get, Down Firing or Front Fring...
Here is the link for the Speakers http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=...&rnid=15784691

Here is the Subs
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F1...6538052&sr=1-1
or this one
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-43.../ref=pd_cp_e_1

What's your Guy's thoughts???????
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-20-2010, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by III Zombi3 III View Post

Well, Really I just ordered part of them...I ordered the center and surround...
But, I'm on the fence on which Front Speakers I want... I haven't heard either one..
I live in "BFE" I'm also trying to decide on which Sub to get, Down Firing or Front Fring...
Here is the link for the Speakers http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=...&rnid=15784691

Here is the Subs
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F1...6538052&sr=1-1
or this one
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-43.../ref=pd_cp_e_1

What's your Guy's thoughts???????

Well, I decided to get the F12 Sub. I still need some opinions on the two main towers....I'm leaning towards the DV84.
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