Official Emotiva XPA-5 Owners Thread - Page 58 - AVS Forum
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post #1711 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jhanken View Post
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread), working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another.

If there is any published research on this topic, I would love to read it. I could easily have believed what you are saying to be true a month ago, but given what I heard recently, and again I claim no real expertise, I now find it very hard to believe. Plus, even if true, I suspect there would be so much sound-shaping required to make the XPA-5 sound like the Luxman that it wouldn't really be practical. I don't own an old-style equalizer and typically defeat any tone controls. What matters most is how music sounds in your space when you turn the contraptions on, right?

Still hope the folks at Emotiva find that something was wrong with the amplifier, they promised to bench-test it when it comes back in. They are super nice and one thing I can say is that you can buy from them with confidence that you will have a fair opportunity to listen and decide for yourself. The return process was super easy, and I will still consider their stuff. I currently am using a USP-1 and really like it, even the MM phono stage.

Another feature I like about Emotiva is the pretty-much troll-free forum they have put together.

 

There are hundreds of ABX test results published on the Internet.  Here is a good link to get you started:

 

http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

And here's one by the renowned Sean Olive on why sighted listening tests (the sort usually referred to on AVS where people claim they can listen to two amps and hear 'night and day differences') are dishonest (his words):

 

http://seanolive.blogspot.ch/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html



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post #1712 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 09:37 AM
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That article from stereo review was awesome, blows me away that they would publish such a study. Feeling maybe I was to hasty in sending that bruiser back to TN, but time was ruining out on my thirty days trial. I live in the Bay area, and you can usually find a good Emotive amp (maybe not the XPA-5) on Craig's List, I am going to give the thing another try.

What was weird to me about my impression is that I expected the Emotiva to spank the Luxman, which looks rather unimpressively like my first Onkyo receiver from the 80's.

Anyone have any ideas on how to equalize the dB's in a home environment? I'll have to bribe my son to swap cables for me, with me sitting blindfolded on the couch.
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post #1713 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jhanken View Post

That article from stereo review was awesome, blows me away that they would publish such a study. Feeling maybe I was to hasty in sending that bruiser back to TN, but time was ruining out on my thirty days trial. I live in the Bay area, and you can usually find a good Emotive amp (maybe not the XPA-5) on Craig's List, I am going to give the thing another try.

What was weird to me about my impression is that I expected the Emotiva to spank the Luxman, which looks rather unimpressively like my first Onkyo receiver from the 80's.

Anyone have any ideas on how to equalize the dB's in a home environment? I'll have to bribe my son to swap cables for me, with me sitting blindfolded on the couch.

 

Equalise the dBs for a blind test?  It's very difficult to do at home - you need to match levels to ±0.1dB. Nobody can positively hear a change of one tenth of a dB but tests have shown that when the loudness of one of the two units under test is raised by that amount, it is enough to skew the results.  Just as important is the ability to instantaneously switch from Amp A to Amp B and back again on command - any delay here will negate the validity of any test since auditory memory is only a few seconds long - you need to be able to switch instantly between the units to reliably determine if one sounds different to the other. Swapping cables generally takes way too long.

 

The above issues are the reasons people swear they can hear differences between amps. They can surely hear differences - but the differences are a result of the flawed test procedures not the amps. For example if Amp A is 0.5db louder than Amp B, it may not sound any louder but it will almost always result in Amp A being the 'preferred' sound (ie identifiable as 'different' - for one amp to be preferred to another, obviously the first requirement is that they can be distinguished from one another). 

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post #1714 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That would be a sighted test, with no level matching to ±0.1dB and no instantaneous switching of units?  If so, I’d expect you to hear significant differences. Problem is, the differences aren't a result of differences between the amps, but differences due to the severely flawed 'test' procedure employed.

Properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another.

You sound like a (vinyl) record not working within its design parameters. All an ABX test does is prove the physiological limits of human auditory sensory (echoic) memory, not actual differences in amps. Furthermore, an ABX test does not take into consideration the subjects critical listening abilities or familiarity with source material when comparing amps. What is a properly designed amp? That in itself is a loaded question. I think you are doing a disservice to many by regurgitating this "an amp is an amp is an amp" philosophy. Maybe we should start requiring all members to undergo annual hearing exams to determine posting privileges in the audio forums, actually that's probably not a bad idea. Bottom line is there are differences between what you call properly designed amps, some people can discern them, others can't.

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post #1715 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That would be a sighted test, with no level matching to ±0.1dB and no instantaneous switching of units?  If so, I’d expect you to hear significant differences. Problem is, the differences aren't a result of differences between the amps, but differences due to the severely flawed 'test' procedure employed.

Properly designed, modern Solid State amps (which includes all of the amps we are discussing in this thread),  working within their design parameters and not driven into clipping, have been proven numerous times, in properly conducted blind ABX tests, to be sonically indistinguishable from one another.

You sound like a (vinyl) record not working within its design parameters.    

 

I wouldn't know.

 

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 All an ABX test does is prove the physiological limits of human auditory sensory (echoic) memory, not actual differences in amps.

 

That is incorrect.

 

 

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 Furthermore, an ABX test does not take into consideration the subjects critical listening abilities or familiarity with source material when comparing amps.

 

That is incorrect.

 

If you are going to try to pick me up on the nature of blind tests, at least get your points factually correct. Your remarks show that you don't understand the nature of ABX blind tests. The article I linked to above is a good starting point to develop your understanding.

 

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 I think you are doing a disservice to many by regurgitating this "an amp is an amp is an amp" philosophy. 

 

If you can find somewhere I said that "an amp is an amp" I’d be keen to see it. if not, I can't see the point of you arguing with something I didn't say ;)

 

BTW, it isn't a philosophy - the fact that people are unable to reliably distinguish between two amps in a properly conducted blind ABX test is a scientific fact, with literally hundreds, or even thousands, of such tests conducted, all with the same outcomes.

 

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 What is a properly designed amp? That in itself is a loaded question.

 

I explained that already.

 

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 Maybe we should start requiring all members to undergo annual hearing exams to determine posting privileges in the audio forums, actually that's probably not a bad idea. 

 

Not needed. Substantial experience in ABX testing shows that the 'golden-eared audiophiles' do no better than the regular guy in the street.

 

Quote:
 Bottom line is there are differences between what you call properly designed amps, some people can discern them, others can't.

 

Prove it. Show me the links to the tests where this has been demonstrated time and time again. Until you do, it's just hand waving.



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post #1716 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 11:49 AM
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The value of ABX audio testing which you rely on so heavily to form your arguments is a loaded test, a Kobayashi Maru. The brain is virtually incapable of passing such a test based solely on the fact of auditory retention, or lack there of. The impression sound leaves on us is very short. An ABX test is not the way to compare or audition amps or anything home audio for that matter, unless your only objective is to prove the brains limits.

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post #1717 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 11:57 AM
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Auditory memory is about 6 seconds IIRC. The whole point of rapidly switched ABX testing is to circumvent that issue. ABX has been proven over and over again a reliable means for distinguishing statistically significant differences among components. I don't think your argument holds for that. I read over and over how testing must be performed over time, in your own listening room, etc. but that simply doesn't fit the research I have read and performed over the past few decades. It seems a smokescreen meant to discourage anyone from trying, or believing prior research. As for proving the brain's limits, we do seem to do that rather often on AVS, mine included.

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post #1718 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 11:58 AM
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The value of ABX audio testing which you rely on so heavily to form your arguments is a loaded test, a Kobayashi Maru. The brain is virtually incapable of passing such a test based solely on the fact of auditory retention, or lack there of. The impression sound leaves on us is very short. An ABX test is not the way to compare or audition amps or anything home audio for that matter, unless your only objective is to prove the brains limits.

 

Sorry but you are just plain wrong.  I won't argue this to the death with you and all I can suggest is that you read some more about ABX testing methodology as your ideas are based on false premises.



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post #1719 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 12:14 PM
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Sorry but you are just plain wrong.  I won't argue this to the death with you and all I can suggest is that you read some more about ABX testing methodology as your ideas are based on false premises.

Let me get this straight, you've narrowed down the entire audio industry and all personal preference and experience down to a blind ABX test and everyone else is wrong?
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post #1720 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 12:30 PM
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Auditory memory is about 6 seconds IIRC. The whole point of rapidly switched ABX testing is to circumvent that issue. ABX has been proven over and over again a reliable means for distinguishing statistically significant differences among components. I don't think your argument holds for that. I read over and over how testing must be performed over time, in your own listening room, etc. but that simply doesn't fit the research I have read and performed over the past few decades. It seems a smokescreen meant to discourage anyone from trying, or believing prior research. As for proving the brain's limits, we do seem to do that rather often on AVS, mine included.

I've fooled my self a time or two while doing non scientific tests, but yet I have found that I prefer a certain amp and I gravitate towards separate amplification. Call it what you want, but to me audio is more than fooling my sense of hearing and it seems many are labeled crazy if not plain wrong for subscribing to that on this particular forum.
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post #1721 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 01:39 PM
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Sorry but you are just plain wrong.  I won't argue this to the death with you and all I can suggest is that you read some more about ABX testing methodology as your ideas are based on false premises.

Let me get this straight, you've narrowed down the entire audio industry and all personal preference and experience down to a blind ABX test and everyone else is wrong?

 

 

Making up stuff which you allege I have said isn't helping demonstrate that you know what you are talking about.



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post #1722 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 02:34 PM
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i can't say i blame people for not believing as they aren't audio engineers and everything they base their knowledge on is on the internet. Everyone knows you can't put something on the internet that isn't true. It's funny to me how long it took me to understand but what's even funnier is how stupid i looked before-hand arguing with people that have been in the industry for ever. The funniest thing is looking back and hearing some of the crap i would come up with to describe the sound. lmao LAME!

who do i talk to around here about changing my title from "advanced member" to "specialED member"
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post #1723 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 02:58 PM
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Making up stuff which you allege I have said isn't helping demonstrate that you know what you are talking about.

Not making anything up at all, just simply making an observation. Based on your posts it's seems pretty clear how you feel about audio gear, specifically amps. Almost without fail every time someone posts how an amp has improved their sound you are there with your same canned response, and argue them into the ground that they can't possibly have heard an improvement/difference because blind ABX testing trumps all so don't bother. You think you're enlightening people about amps, but you keep playing the same card.

It's as if everyone you encounter is supposed to setup a perfect blind ABX test with their equipment and when they are proven that they can't statistically hear a difference between amps the world somehow becomes a better place.

Even If I participated in a instantaneous blind ABX test with my own equipment and found that I was 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time, my amps would stay exactly where they are at, I would keep using them and my receivers internal amps would continue to sit idle, and yet my system would be better for it. I know you can't wrap your mind around that, but try.

Oh man, you'd really roll your eyes if you saw my cables.
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post #1724 of 2048 Old 12-05-2013, 04:13 PM
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There are hundreds of ABX test results published on the Internet. Here is a good link to get you started:



http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf

That is an interesting test / article. Blind testing is as important in A / V gear is it is in wine tasting. And level matching amps for testing would seem to be as important as brightness matching is for projector and screen comparison. Otherwise, the brightest projector / screen usually wins.

I honestly can't hear any difference between my Denon 4520 powering my front L / R speakers, and my Emotiva amp. I just needed 2 more channels powered for 11.2 !! And my Emotiva does the job just fine.
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post #1725 of 2048 Old 12-06-2013, 10:40 AM
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Making up stuff which you allege I have said isn't helping demonstrate that you know what you are talking about.
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Not making anything up at all, just simply making an observation.

 

Well I didn't say "an amp is an amp is an amp" and I didn't say I'd "narrowed down the entire audio industry and all personal preference and experience down to a blind ABX test". If you have deduced that from what I did actually say, then you need to go back and read the posts again. If you are always this sloppy in your reading comprehension it's no wonder you don't get what I am saying.

 

Quote:

Almost without fail every time someone posts how an amp has improved their sound you are there with your same canned response, and argue them into the ground that they can't possibly have heard an improvement/difference because blind ABX testing trumps all so don't bother. You think you're enlightening people about amps, but you keep playing the same card.

 

Again, you are just putting words into my mouth which I have never said. Quote me where I said "they can't possibly have heard an improvement/difference  [when auditioning two amps]".  In fact I said exactly the opposite. I will repeat it this once and then I will leave it because there is no point discussing anything with someone who continuously misrepresents what I said. I said that people DO hear differences all the time.  The problem is that the differences they hear are a result of their flawed so-called 'tests' not differences between the amps. Even if there were differences, the flawed test methods they use would invalidate what they heard anyway.

 

I linked above to two articles which you didn’t bother to read before you started arguing. The second article is written by Dr Sean Olive, one of the founding fathers of modern acoustics. In the article he explains why sighted tests - the tests you favour - are 'dishonest' and valueless. If you wish to argue that Olive is wrong and you are right, then good luck with that.  If you spent a little while reading the article you may learn something.

 

Quote:
 It's as if everyone you encounter is supposed to setup a perfect blind ABX test with their equipment and when they are proven that they can't statistically hear a difference between amps the world somehow becomes a better place.

 

Again, this is your invention not mine.

 

The world actually does become a better place when people stop wasting their money changing amps hoping to hear a difference in their SQ. Not only do they save money, but they might also then start to realise that they can spend it instead on the areas which do make huge differences in SQ:  the speakers, subs, speaker/sub placement and room treatments.

 

It is always amusing to watch people defend the indefensible and somehow try to show that a new amp will make a really big difference, while they ignore the sound-destroying effects of the 20-30dB frequency swings that commonly exist in typical domestic rooms. 

 

You offer no proof or evidence of your claims - you just keep on repeating your opinion. It cuts no ice. Show me some frequency response charts of modern SS amps, or their specifications even, and show me how they differ to the extent they will reveal audible differences. Show me the proof for your claims. Modern SS amps of the type we are discussing in this thread exhibit ruler flat frequency responses and levels of distortion way, way below the threshold of audibility. They simply take a signal in at one end and send it out the other end entirely unchanged except in amplitude. If you can show me that this is wrong, then do so instead of all the hand waving.

 

Quote:

Even If I participated in a instantaneous blind ABX test with my own equipment and found that I was 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time, my amps would stay exactly where they are at, I would keep using them and my receivers internal amps would continue to sit idle, and yet my system would be better for it. I know you can't wrap your mind around that, but try.

 

Explain how the system would "be better". Obviously you are free to keep any amp you wish in your system, but above you are saying that even if I can show that there is zero difference between one amp and the other, your system will; still be "better" for the external amp. That is so lacking in logic it defies belief.

 

Quote:
Oh man, you'd really roll your eyes if you saw my cables.

 

Yes, I probably would unless they are from Monoprice or Blue Jeans or similar. I rest my case.

 

This discussion has run its course. All you have to offer is opinion and hand waving. Please feel free to have the last word if that sort of thing is important to you, but understand that I won’t respond further.



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post #1726 of 2048 Old 12-06-2013, 11:10 AM
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There are hundreds of ABX test results published on the Internet. Here is a good link to get you started:



http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf

That is an interesting test / article. Blind testing is as important in A / V gear is it is in wine tasting. And level matching amps for testing would seem to be as important as brightness matching is for projector and screen comparison. Otherwise, the brightest projector / screen usually wins.

I honestly can't hear any difference between my Denon 4520 powering my front L / R speakers, and my Emotiva amp. I just needed 2 more channels powered for 11.2 !! And my Emotiva does the job just fine.

 

A perfectly good reason to have external amps. Incidentally, I own 4 Emotiva amps and am very happy with all of them. I bought them when I had some 4 ohm speakers that were especially difficult ('audiophile' speakers that I no longer have) and I kept the amps to partner my prepro, which I bought for its Audyssey Pro abilities as much as anything.



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post #1727 of 2048 Old 12-07-2013, 01:57 PM
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In the absence of treatments, the next best thing is Audyssey XT32. This will make a significant difference and, again, is vastly more influential on the final SQ than changing the amp or other electronics. Upgrading your AVR to the 4311 is a very sound (no pun intended) choice. It will drive your speakers very well.
Not having much luck finding any reasonably priced 4311s, I bought the X4000 locally for $1000 on sale to try out XT32 and subEQ. It had a 30 day return policy so I could get a refund if I didn't think it was worth the extra cash. 2 days later I found an ebay vendor on the other side of the country selling their last refurb'd 4311. I made an offer of $1050 and it was accepted so in all likelihood, the X4000 will go back to the store unopened and I will be reselling the XPA-5 and 3312 that I already have - barring some unforeseen event like a DOA 4311.
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post #1728 of 2048 Old 12-07-2013, 09:21 PM
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My guess is either way you will be very pleased.
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post #1729 of 2048 Old 12-08-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You offer no proof or evidence of your claims - you just keep on repeating your opinion. It cuts no ice. Show me some frequency response charts of modern SS amps, or their specifications even, and show me how they differ to the extent they will reveal audible differences. Show me the proof for your claims. Modern SS amps of the type we are discussing in this thread exhibit ruler flat frequency responses and levels of distortion way, way below the threshold of audibility. They simply take a signal in at one end and send it out the other end entirely unchanged except in amplitude. If you can show me that this is wrong, then do so instead of all the hand waving.

Have you ever experienced a shift in soundstage width or depth?

Have you ever experienced listening fatigue?

Do you reject the idea that an amp can have a warm, bright or neutral presentation?

These are examples of amplifier characteristics that I have personally experienced, even though the specifications of these amps showed a ruler flat response and vanishingly low distortion specs.

Am I the only person who can detect such differences?

Are these amps malfunctioning?

Is there a non scientific side of audio that lives outside the realm of ABX tests and specifications?

Woo Hoo
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post #1730 of 2048 Old 12-08-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingshane View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You offer no proof or evidence of your claims - you just keep on repeating your opinion. It cuts no ice. Show me some frequency response charts of modern SS amps, or their specifications even, and show me how they differ to the extent they will reveal audible differences. Show me the proof for your claims. Modern SS amps of the type we are discussing in this thread exhibit ruler flat frequency responses and levels of distortion way, way below the threshold of audibility. They simply take a signal in at one end and send it out the other end entirely unchanged except in amplitude. If you can show me that this is wrong, then do so instead of all the hand waving.

Have you ever experienced a shift in soundstage width or depth?

 

Oh yes. But amps don't create a 'soundstage'. Speakers and rooms do that. Amps amplify. The clue is in the name ;)

 

Quote:

 Do you reject the idea that an amp can have a warm, bright or neutral presentation?

 

Definitely not. It is easy to make an amp that has these characteristics. Properly designed amps are neutral - they amplify. The idea of using an amp as a tone control is absurd.

 

 

Quote:

 Have you ever experienced listening fatigue?

 

Oh yes. Usually this is  caused when an underpowered amp is driven into clipping. Is there a point to these irrelevant questions?

 

Quote:

 These are examples of amplifier characteristics that I have personally experienced, even though the specifications of these amps showed a ruler flat response and vanishingly low distortion specs.

 

So you have an amp that is 'bright' (ie it has a treble emphasis) or 'warm' (it has a lower midrange emphasis) yet these don't show up in the amp's frequency response charts? That would pretty interesting since it's impossible.

 

Quote:

 Am I the only person who can detect such differences?

 

What differences? Distortion caused by clipping? Soundstage and imaging issues?  No - many people have experienced these things.

 

 

Quote:

Are these amps malfunctioning? 

 

An amp driven into clipping isn’t really malfunctioning - it is being abused.

 

Quote:

 Is there a non scientific side of audio that lives outside the realm of ABX tests and specifications?

 

There is if you believe in magic.

 

EDIT: Damn. I said I was done with this pointless discussion. I've given you a couple of good links (which you haven't bothered to read) and I said I'd call it a day. I forgot - but I have called it a day now so if you reply again, you will be wasting your time if you expect a reply. Personally, if I were you, I'd spend my time reading some articles by people like Toole or Olive etc, and then you would be able to have a meaningful discussion about these things.

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post #1731 of 2048 Old 12-08-2013, 11:39 AM
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There is if you believe in magic.

EDIT: Damn. I said I was done with this pointless discussion. I've given you a couple of good links (which you haven't bothered to read) and I said I'd call it a day. I forgot - but I have called it a day now so if you reply again, you will be wasting your time if you expect a reply. Personally, if I were you, I'd spend my time reading some articles by people like Toole or Olive etc, and then you would be able to have a meaningful discussion about these things.

Do reading these articles change my perception of sound?

Personally I can't subscribe to your mindless automaton view of audio, and based on your responses to my questions I really think your missing out on the hobby.

And FYI I've never evaluated my system while clipping.

Woo Hoo
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post #1732 of 2048 Old 12-08-2013, 11:47 AM
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There is if you believe in magic.


Oh with that said now would be the perfect time to bring up sound quality differences in cables. lmao smile.gif
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post #1733 of 2048 Old 12-08-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by audioholicJeffL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There is if you believe in magic.


Oh with that said now would be the perfect time to bring up sound quality differences in cables. lmao smile.gif

 

Not to mention those little spiky doodahs that you place on top of the speakers. And those essential 'cable elevators' :)  it's quite hilarious to see people who refuse to understand that audio and acoustics are branches of science and actually seem to believe in 'magic' - unexplained changes, for example, to frequency response which do not show up in measurements!  I wonder where they think these things come from?  Only explanation is that they somehow believe that sound reproduction is some form of mysterious and unexplained or unexplainable phenomenon. Weird.

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post #1734 of 2048 Old 12-08-2013, 01:23 PM
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One of my favorites, and there have been many, was an article by some golden eared audiophool in the St. Pete times back in the 90's. This person claimed to be able to hear the difference in an amp that was unpainted vs a painted one. smile.gif ranks right up there with black markers on the edges of cd's and transports sounding different. lol!

Unpainted amps sound well....you know uncolored. LMAO smile.gif
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post #1735 of 2048 Old 12-09-2013, 03:17 AM
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One of my favorites, and there have been many, was an article by some golden eared audiophool in the St. Pete times back in the 90's. This person claimed to be able to hear the difference in an amp that was unpainted vs a painted one. smile.gif ranks right up there with black markers on the edges of cd's and transports sounding different. lol!

Unpainted amps sound well....you know uncolored. LMAO smile.gif

 

LOL. There have been so many. I especially like the one from many years back where every UK audiophool magazine suddenly jumped on the same bandwagon, which was that there should be no other speaker in the room other than the stereo pair. People were removing their TVs, their radios, their telephones (yes, honestly, it was claimed that the presence of a telephone speaker in the  room would audibly degrade the sound).  Then they swore they could hear these differences in the HF. "Night and day", probably. Even their wives could probably hear the difference just by walking into the room LOL.  The guys writing this drivel were the acknowledged gurus of hi-fi too - not some numbnuts who had found a typewriter. Incredible.



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post #1736 of 2048 Old 12-09-2013, 04:55 AM
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I once visited a dealer that specialized (supposedly) in room treatments. They had what looked like DIY diffusers. Very beautiful wood. They also sold very expensive speaker wire that was the diameter of spider web.
The owner gave me a few tips that cost nothing. My favorite was to loosen all the covers on light switches and plug receptacles. A room could be tuned by loosening/tightening various covers.
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post #1737 of 2048 Old 12-09-2013, 05:22 AM
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Do reading these articles change my perception of sound?

Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. But at least you would gain some knowledge from some well respected people in the audio world. I gave up trying to find the "perfect" amp to have in my system. When I read some of these articles that Keith mentioned I realized that many of the differences I thought I heard were more from expectation bias than anything else. I certainly do not have the auditory memory to tell the differences between solid state amps when factoring in the time it takes to swap amps out.

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Personally I can't subscribe to your mindless automaton view of audio, and based on your responses to my questions I really think your missing out on the hobby.

I think your above statement is so far from the truth that it is quite funny. So if someone like Keith "subscribes" to the all solid state amps sound the same is missing out in this hobby? I spent more than a year buying and selling amps awhile back. When I finally realized it was a waste of time I ended up with one of the original amps I bought. I still have the Boston Acoustics A7200 in my system and I have no plans to replace it. There certainly isn't anything wrong with trying many different components in ones system. But I've found lately that time spent listening to my system is much better than changing out amps or any other components that give minimal to no changes in the SQ of my system. In other words I find the best part of this "hobby" is actually listening to my system instead of chasing the holy grail of solid state amps smile.gif.

I'm amused by those that feel ABX tests are of no use. I also find it funny that those that think ABX testing are useless are not willing to step up and do the testing to show they can tell the sonic differences between solid state amps wink.gif.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #1738 of 2048 Old 12-09-2013, 05:32 AM
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The owner gave me a few tips that cost nothing. My favorite was to loosen all the covers on light switches and plug receptacles. A room could be tuned by loosening/tightening various covers.

Mud,

I'll have to try that wink.gif. How did you keep a straight face while he was giving you this valuable advice? I'm sure loosening all the plug receptacles behind the various pieces of furniture in my room will really help the SQ in my room smile.gif.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #1739 of 2048 Old 12-09-2013, 06:17 AM
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Mud,

I'll have to try that wink.gif. How did you keep a straight face while he was giving you this valuable advice? I'm sure loosening all the plug receptacles behind the various pieces of furniture in my room will really help the SQ in my room smile.gif.

Bill

Bill,
You can control standing waves with this method. They exit the room with the loosened covers.
I am sure you have read about the old method of putting quarters on top of your speakers to change the sound. smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #1740 of 2048 Old 12-09-2013, 06:20 AM
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The value of ABX audio testing which you rely on so heavily to form your arguments is a loaded test, a Kobayashi Maru. The brain is virtually incapable of passing such a test based solely on the fact of auditory retention, or lack there of. The impression sound leaves on us is very short. An ABX test is not the way to compare or audition amps or anything home audio for that matter, unless your only objective is to prove the brains limits.

That is not true at all. When there are audible differences, the bias controlled test points them out in the same way it points out a lack of audible differences. Since hearing bias is real, it is impossible to get a meaningful comparison without eliminating it.
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