The "Official" Onkyo TX-SR608 Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I am glad I am not alone in noticing this. I hesitated to post my concerns about the processing the receiver is doing in the event I just got a faulty unit. I am going to call Onkyo, but I have a feeling where the conversation will go...

This is a shame, waiting to see what they say.. maybe should have got the denon.... :/
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post #1172 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by allupons View Post

Yea, the 608 images are the ones labeled with 608, and the ones that run straight into the tv are labeled no608 at the very top in the URL once you select them.

The slight banding on the ones on the left are more a byproduct of turning them into a gif with only 256 colors for upload to the web, but you can trust me the difference when simply watching back and forth is unfortunately undeniable. I can also see some sort of smoothing, or anti-noise filter that is attempting to be applied which is added a subtle ghosting at times to the image. I would really love to just have 0 processing actually touch the image (to its detriment imo), because the sound is undeniably amazing.

if the degradation is similar to mine, i notice a loss in detail and the colors becoming a bit "ruddier." bit more orangey, clayish in peoples faces. once again, this was done with a paused blu ray with a hdmi splitter with the same brand of hdmi cable directly into the tv and one through the receiver into the tv.

I have mine boxed up going back to abt.
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post #1173 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 06:50 AM
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Winston.. since this was not mentioned in your review, was it something that just came up..??

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post #1174 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 06:53 AM
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I just got of the phone with customer support or lack there of. The C/S rep immediately said that he has a PS3 hooked up in the lab to a 608 and his does not stutter.

I really like this receiver and would hate to return it but if a solution is not possible, I need to shop around. Any recommendations (price range/feature wise) of the 608. I can actually go a little higher in price if need be.
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post #1175 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCruiser07 View Post

I just got of the phone with customer support or lack there of. The C/S rep immediately said that he has a PS3 hooked up in the lab to a 608 and his does not stutter.

I really like this receiver and would hate to return it but if a solution is not possible, I need to shop around. Any recommendations (price range/feature wise) of the 608. I can actually go a little higher in price if need be.

I have a FAT PS3 and 608 and PJ - no stuttering.
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post #1176 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

I have a FAT PS3 and 608 and PJ - no stuttering.

I've put quite a few hours on my 608 using a FAT PS3 and have to report none of the issues that have come up in the last few days ..

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post #1177 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 07:01 AM
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I actually haven't seen any stuttering as well from my ps3. This isn't a defect or anything like that. It simply is running its video processing on an image that I don't want altered. Some may even prefer what it is outputting, but to my eyes it is degraded when the source is a high quality blu-ray.
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post #1178 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Winston.. since this was not mentioned in your review, was it something that just came up..??

to be candid, i did not notice it until heavy use this weekend. I will say this is something that 1. not all people will notice; and 2. not all people will be bothered by it. The frame stuttering/dropping drove me insane, but is very random (roughly every 2-5 minutes). It took me about an hour of playing source components and re-configuring to actually confirm the onkyo was the culprit. Once I also saw it on hd cable, i then explored more heavily on what the receiver was doing to resolution and colorspace. it was then i discovered the colorspace upconversion bug.

A lot of these bugs are not noticeable without ample time of testing.

My review has been updated and the scoring will be updated once I have time to consider how to adjust it fairly.

Good news is the Pioneer 1020 has been operating in the other room for an equal time and i have encountered no such degradation or bugs (save a very finickly MCACC callibration process!).
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post #1179 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post

I actually haven't seen any stuttering as well from my ps3. This isn't a defect or anything like that. It simply is running its video processing on an image that I don't want altered. Some may even prefer what it is outputting, but to my eyes it is degraded when the source is a high quality blu-ray.

are you guys using an LCD tv? I have a theory that an LCD with a faster than 60hz refresh rate might be able to compensate for the frame stuttering better than a plasma like i am using.
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post #1180 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 07:18 AM
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I'm running my 608 into an LCD projector... before removing my H/K from my system (which had no HDMI), I ran both the H/K as well as the 608 concurrently. Using a FAT PS3 .. manual HDMI switcher, comparing the PQ between the 608 on pass through and then outputing the PS3 direct to the projector.

The PQ was identical and I saw no stuttering or frame drop, nor any change in color accuracy.

Can any of you elaborate further on what I'm looking for..??

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post #1181 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 07:40 AM
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I noticed that I only saw any visual degradation when the image was darker. Also, it only became more noticeable if among the dark look there was a light source to add a subtle gradient. That would cause the banding that shows up in the pictures i took. As for the ghosting (this is the best term i can think to describe what i saw, by which i mean it appeared as though subtle movements were perceived by the receiver as unwanted noise and it attempted to correct for them, but in the process it made movement appear slightly blurry) there was no absolute equation as for when it showed up, but I can say that in watching a few scenes where i noticed it, the problem went completely away once i ran the ps3 straight into the tv. I do believe that when a scene is very well lit though that none of these issues occur from what i could tell, and my guess would be that with very vivid light the onkyo believes less noise processing is required and thus the image is mostly unaltered.

As for my monitor, it is a simple 60 Hz LCD, that is running in 24 Hz mode during bluray playback.
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post #1182 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post

I noticed that I only saw any visual degradation when the image was darker. Also, it only became more noticeable if among the dark look there was a light source to add a subtle gradient. That would cause the banding that shows up in the pictures i took. As for the ghosting (this is the best term i can think to describe what i saw, by which i mean it appeared as though subtle movements were perceived by the receiver as unwanted noise and it attempted to correct for them, but in the process it made movement appear slightly blurry) there was no absolute equation as for when it showed up, but I can say that in watching a few scenes where i noticed it, the problem went completely away once i ran the ps3 straight into the tv. I do believe that when a scene is very well lit though that none of these issues occur from what i could tell, and my guess would be that with very vivid light the onkyo believes less noise processing is required and thus the image is mostly unaltered.

As for my monitor, it is a simple 60 Hz LCD, that is running in 24 Hz mode during bluray playback.

Last night, I watched Daybreakers, a very dark film. Perfect PQ. I don't know if the issues that are coming up are in a select group of owners or if it's widespread.. maybe we'll hear from more during the week.

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post #1183 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:04 AM
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UPDATE: I am at work and cannot test this myself, but after calling Onkyo tech support I was referenced to page 21 of the manual which offers this quote, "It is also recommended that you press VCR/DVR and RETURN on the AV receiver at the same time. Select “Skip” in the “VideoProcessor” setting by pressing RETURN repeatedly on the display. To reset back to the original setting, press the same button at the same time."

It appears there is a hidden sub-menu of sorts that should allow you to turn off any video processing at all! This is great news as long as it works. I won't be able to test this until I get off of work later this afternoon, but if anyone else has access now please take a look at this.
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post #1184 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuch View Post

Last night my receiver became totally unresponsive. Remote doesn't do anything and none of the buttons do anything. Unplugging the unit and plugging it back in doesn't do anything. It stays on the VCR/DVR input at volume 60. Abt is sending me a replacement when they get some more in stock. I can't belive this thing crapped out on me in less than a month.

Did you try to clear the settings with a factory reset? Hold VCR on the receiver and press power.
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post #1185 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post

UPDATE: I am at work and cannot test this myself, but after calling Onkyo tech support I was referenced to page 21 of the manual which offers this quote, "It is also recommended that you press VCR/DVR and RETURN on the AV receiver at the same time. Select Skip in the VideoProcessor setting by pressing RETURN repeatedly on the display. To reset back to the original setting, press the same button at the same time."

It appears there is a hidden sub-menu of sorts that should allow you to turn off any video processing at all! This is great news as long as it works. I won't be able to test this until I get off of work later this afternoon, but if anyone else has access now please take a look at this.

I'll try this later, although I have not noticed any visual degradation.
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post #1186 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post

UPDATE: I am at work and cannot test this myself, but after calling Onkyo tech support I was referenced to page 21 of the manual which offers this quote, "It is also recommended that you press VCR/DVR and RETURN on the AV receiver at the same time. Select “Skip” in the “VideoProcessor” setting by pressing RETURN repeatedly on the display. To reset back to the original setting, press the same button at the same time."

It appears there is a hidden sub-menu of sorts that should allow you to turn off any video processing at all! This is great news as long as it works. I won't be able to test this until I get off of work later this afternoon, but if anyone else has access now please take a look at this.

This sounds very promising.. winston.. care to unbox again? I can try out my cable box tonight when I get home.

Edit: on second thoughts, I wonder if this only referring to upconversion of the component/composite signals to hdmi? And skipping that?
I suppose if it works, I'll have to run components again for the wii.
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post #1187 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post

UPDATE: I am at work and cannot test this myself, but after calling Onkyo tech support I was referenced to page 21 of the manual which offers this quote, "It is also recommended that you press VCR/DVR and RETURN on the AV receiver at the same time. Select Skip in the VideoProcessor setting by pressing RETURN repeatedly on the display. To reset back to the original setting, press the same button at the same time."

It appears there is a hidden sub-menu of sorts that should allow you to turn off any video processing at all! This is great news as long as it works. I won't be able to test this until I get off of work later this afternoon, but if anyone else has access now please take a look at this.

I will un-box it and try this evening. The only thing that concerns me is I tried to reset the microprocessor via power/VCR last night. That said, are we sure this is just not resetting it to the factory default?

Anyone at home today that can try it and confirm it does not upconvert the colorspace on 8bit signals?
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post #1188 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I'll try this later, although I have not noticed any visual degradation.

it would be interesting to see if it would then just pass signals through without upconversion of colorspace...test would be very easy and definitive
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post #1189 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 08:54 AM
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I would imagine this is not simply a reset as the setting you change is called "VideoProcessor" and you change the value to "Skip", which means that skip is not the default. Therefore a reset would leave VideoProcessor turned on, and not select skip. Not to say I have tested it yet, but you have to admit the language certainly seems to imply an actual untouched passthrough.
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post #1190 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 09:06 AM
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Winston,

Just a theory, but is it possible your TV is doing the up conversion when it receives 8 bit signals and you are used to/prefer that up conversion? Maybe the 608 is up converting without changing the signal, but then your TV is receiving 10 bit signals and is no longer doing the up conversion you are used to. So the difference you are seeing is maybe just your TV no longer doing the up conversion?

This wouldn't account for any missing frames you mentioned, but could account for the color difference.

Edit:
Also winston, what does the output of the 608 look like when it is powered off and in hdmi through mode? Does it still up convert the color space out of curiosity?
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post #1191 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveHCYJ View Post

Winston,

Just a theory, but is it possible your TV is doing the up conversion when it receives 8 bit signals and you are used to/prefer that up conversion? Maybe the 608 is up converting without changing the signal, but then your TV is receiving 10 bit signals and is no longer doing the up conversion you are used to. So the difference you are seeing is maybe just your TV no longer doing the up conversion?

This wouldn't account for any missing frames you mentioned, but could account for the color difference.

either way, i still want to pass hdmi video through without the receiver touching it. there could be chroma upsampling errors and other problems introduced by the receiver messing with the colorspace
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post #1192 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 09:12 AM
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When powered off in hdmi through, the image is not degraded or processed at all from my observation. It is only when the receiver is powered on that it does its video processing, even if through is selected. I am very hopeful that this new hidden menu setting will fix all of that though. Not to mention, changing this setting is recommended by THX for the best quality in the paragraph that it is listed, so that is seemingly promising as well.
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post #1193 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post
UPDATE: I am at work and cannot test this myself, but after calling Onkyo tech support I was referenced to page 21 of the manual which offers this quote, "It is also recommended that you press VCR/DVR and RETURN on the AV receiver at the same time. Select Skip in the VideoProcessor setting by pressing RETURN repeatedly on the display. To reset back to the original setting, press the same button at the same time."

It appears there is a hidden sub-menu of sorts that should allow you to turn off any video processing at all! This is great news as long as it works. I won't be able to test this until I get off of work later this afternoon, but if anyone else has access now please take a look at this.
Got the page. Definitely will be trying this when I get home from work.

 

VCR DVR RETURN.pdf 53.6162109375k . file
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post #1194 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FJCruiser07 View Post

Got the page. Definitely will be trying this when I get home from work.

So, does this turn off component-to-HDMI conversion, or just upconversion?


No signature here...
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post #1195 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by FJCruiser07 View Post

Got the page. Definitely will be trying this when I get home from work.

Keep us posted. Mine is sitting at my door waiting for me when I get home. I contacted Onkyo customer support before purchasing because I wanted to confirm that it was possible for the receiver not to touch the HDMI video signal; they assured me that through mode would not touch it. I guess that was wrong though!

If there is no way to turn off the processing, I will return it and look elsewhere for a good receiver.

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post #1196 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by clarksonknight View Post

So, does this turn off component-to-HDMI conversion, or just upconversion?

No one knows yet the extent to which video signals are manipulated.

The thing we do know is that the default settings still allow for video degradation even in through mode.

We're hopeful that the vcr/return function will turn off all video processing.
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post #1197 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 11:42 AM
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I just tried vcr/return thing. With it set to skip it would still convert my component connected wii to 1080p. My hdmi connected ps3 outputing a 720p game was no being converted to 1080p. Also osd would not show for the ps3 put switching back to the wii it would.
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post #1198 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allupons View Post

When powered off in hdmi through, the image is not degraded or processed at all from my observation. It is only when the receiver is powered on that it does its video processing, even if through is selected. I am very hopeful that this new hidden menu setting will fix all of that though. Not to mention, changing this setting is recommended by THX for the best quality in the paragraph that it is listed, so that is seemingly promising as well.

I swear that I think I've seen that skip setting in the setup menu osd for the current hdmi port you are using, without needing to use the VCR/return command. It's under custom video settings.

Is everyone who is using "through", also using custom video settings? If either of those 2 video setup screens (osd overlay over picture, and just osd) are set to cinema, game, etc... then yes there will be processing going on.
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post #1199 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I swear that I think I've seen that skip setting in the setup menu osd for the current hdmi port you are using, without needing to use the VCR/return command. It's under custom video settings.

Is everyone who is using "through", also using custom video settings? If either of those 2 video setup screens (osd overlay over picture, and just osd) are set to cinema, game, etc... then yes there will be processing going on.

My issues were with "through" on the input assign (monitor) menu and "through" within the source setup submenu.
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post #1200 of 5292 Old 05-24-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I swear that I think I've seen that skip setting in the setup menu osd for the current hdmi port you are using, without needing to use the VCR/return command. It's under custom video settings.

Is everyone who is using "through", also using custom video settings? If either of those 2 video setup screens (osd overlay over picture, and just osd) are set to cinema, game, etc... then yes there will be processing going on.

Now that makes sense .. since I read winstons post this morning, I've suddenly gotten paranoid. In checking on Onkyos history, I can't find any past issues like this. It seems almost incomprehensible that Onkyo would NOT have a true, clean signal. I mean, I know some AVR's have had issues with BTB ansd clipping, but I'm confused on this one... and frankly, I have not visually seen it after quite a few hours ..

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