Can someone tell me what Audio I am getting? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all.
I thought this would be the place to ask this question. I have the Mitsubishi Unisen Television with Soundbar built in. It decodes Dolby Digital and Dolby True, and pro Logic. I does NOT decode DTS or DTS MA. I have a Philips Blu ray player that can Bitstream the Dolby True and DTS MA though HDMI. Here is a description of the Philips

Unique design ; can output Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio in bit-stream format ; excellent video quality in 1080p/24 mode ; Profile 1.1 compliant

No onboard decoding for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio ; subpar image quality on Blu-ray Discs in standard 1080p mode ; lacks Profile 2.0 support ; no Ethernet jack for firmware upgrades


Dolby True sounds great. Regular Dolby, quite good. My question is,...what am I listening to when I play a DTS MA track.. It does play. ( Even though the Mitsubsihi Unisen does not to decode DTS ma). It sounds very good, but not quite as discrete a 5.1 as playing the Dolbys... if that makes sense. Am I still getting HD audio? Am I getting DTS MA nevertheless and it should sound "the same" as if it did decode it?


Thx in advance


Thx
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post #2 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 07:21 PM
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The blu-ray player is transcoding the DTS-Master Audio to multi-channel PCM, and then the audio decoder within the Mitsu display is decoding it..

Just my $0.01...
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post #3 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thx. Am I still getting Uncompressed Audio that way?
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post #4 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

Thx. Am I still getting Uncompressed Audio that way?

Yes..
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post #5 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 07:45 PM
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If the player really lacks DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, an obvious answer is that it plays back the DTS core. This would be a high rate, 1.5 Mbs compressed signal. If you look in the AVR FAQ, and find the stickied link to the lossless listening test, you will noticed they could not easily tell DTS 1.5 Mbs apart from DTS lossless.

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post #6 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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This is where I am confused. The Mirsubishi Soundbar says it does
not do DTS of any sort. When I play a regular DVD and chose dts,..no
sound at all. Then how come chosing DTS ma on a Blu Ray disc does play.
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post #7 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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That is kind of what I
though.

So I assume it is uncompressed, correct?

Would that explain, while very good, it doesn't sound quite as discrete or directional as Dolby or Dolby True?

Thx a lot all!!
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post #8 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 08:13 PM
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If not of your gear can decode DTS-HD Master Audio, you won't get lossless when playing DTS-HD Master Audio tracks. As I said above, you will get DTS core, which is lossy (but very high quality.)

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post #9 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 08:19 PM
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Frostylou - How are you connected and what settings are you using on the player? Also, what's the player model number?

If you are using HDMI, it is possible that the handshake tells the player that the TV lacks a DTS decoder and, as a result, the player then decodes and outputs multichannel PCM. If that is what's happening, you would be getting the DTS core, not the lossless dts-MA track. But, as previously noted, the core sounds great, often as good as lossless.

Does your soundbar/TV tell you the format of the audio it is receiving? Receivers do that. But, I don't know anything about your combo device.

btw, "transcoding" is not likely the proper term here. Transcoding means substituting one codec for another. If the player sends a Dolby track when playing a DTS track, that's transcoding (decodes and re-encodes to a new format). If it sends PCM, that's just decoding.
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post #10 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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B Islander. I have my BD7200 jooked up HDMI. Ther are two options in the Audio menu. Mix and Priamry. I have it set to Priamary. The Sound bar does not show what audio I am getting unfortunately, but here is a post from a forum, so I know the DVD is setp properly:


Well, I finally got a couple of disks that didn't have PCM for audio output.

Stargate Continuum with DTS HD Master Lossless Audio and Ironman with Dolby TrueHD.

My Yamaha RX-V1800 wasn't showing the DTS-HD or TrueHD symbols, just DTS or Dolby Digital....that that was weird.

The fix is to go into the BDP-7200 menu to the Advanced Setup - Blu-ray Disc Audio.

Change from "Mix Audio Output" to "Primary Audio Only".

Now the DTS-HD and TrueHD audio reaches my receiver.



So do I have this right. The Blu Ray player is sending out just the Primary PCM,( in the Dolby True track} and the Soundbar is decoding it, and properly ...as it is able with Dolby True Decodng.
When playing DTS ma...The DVD player is sending the PCM (inside the DTS ma) but as the Soundbar does not have DTS or DTSma encoding, it is just the primary PCM that I am listeing to? If so... Umcompressed PCM?


Thx again
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post #11 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 08:53 PM
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If primary sends bitstream, which sounds correct, then it won't send PCM if you select DTS-HD Master Audio, it will will send the DTS core audio. To send PCM, it would have to decode DTS-HD Master Audio, which you have led me to believe it can't do.

For TrueHD, if the player CAN decode TrueHD, it may detect, via HDMI EDID, that the soundbar can't decode TrueHD, and it may be decoding the TrueHD HD and sending PCM.

In general, it sounds like everything may be working fine. I am surprised you can't get more info from the soundbar on what sort of audio arriving, but does it really matter?

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post #12 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

B Islander. I have my BD7200 jooked up HDMI. Ther are two options in the Audio menu. Mix and Priamry. I have it set to Priamary. The Sound bar does not show what audio I am getting unfortunately, but here is a post from a forum, so I know the DVD is setp properly:


Well, I finally got a couple of disks that didn't have PCM for audio output.

Stargate Continuum with DTS HD Master Lossless Audio and Ironman with Dolby TrueHD.

My Yamaha RX-V1800 wasn't showing the DTS-HD or TrueHD symbols, just DTS or Dolby Digital....that that was weird.

The fix is to go into the BDP-7200 menu to the Advanced Setup - Blu-ray Disc Audio.

Change from "Mix Audio Output" to "Primary Audio Only".

Now the DTS-HD and TrueHD audio reaches my receiver.



So do I have this right. The Blu Ray player is sending out just the Primary PCM,( in the Dolby True track} and the Sound bar is docoding it ...as it is able with Dolby True Decodng.
When playing DTS ma...The DVD player is sending the PCM (inside the DTS ma) but as the Soundbar does not have DTS or DTS encoding, it is just the priamary PCM that I am listeing to? If so... Umcompressed PCM?

That's not quite how DD and DTS compression works. Dolby and DTS are really just zip files designed to squeeze PCM into smaller spaces. They must be decoded (unzipped) back into PCM so that they can be played. The DTS core is not PCM. It's good old fashioned DTS which still needs to be decoded somewhere.

The player will not send the lossless versions (TrueHD and dts-MA) when set to Mix because it has to decode the track first in order to mix in the extra audio. That's why the poster you quoted said he had to set the player to Primary. Then, it just sends the encoded track to the processor for decoding. With a dts-MA track, your player actually sends Dolby Digital 5.1 when set to mix. It decodes the lossy DTS core, mixes in the extra audio, and re-encodes the mixture using DD 5.1. That's transcoding. But, since you are using Primary, not Mix, none of that happens.

So, what model is your TV? I checked a Unisen manual and didn't see any sign that it actually does any decoding. But, perhaps I was looking at the wrong model.
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post #13 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

If primary sends bitstream, which sounds correct, then it won't send PCM if you select DTS-HD Master Audio, it will will send the DTS core audio. To send PCM, it would have to decode DTS-HD Master Audio, which you have led me to believe it can't do.

For TrueHD, if the player CAN decode TrueHD, it may detect, via HDMI EDID, that the soundbar can't decode TrueHD, and it may be decoding the TrueHD HD and sending PCM.

In general, it sounds like everything may be working fine. I am surprised you can't get more info from the soundbar on what sort of audio arriving, but does it really matter?

It's a goop point Michael. And yes, everything is working right. Dolby True sounds superb. Dolby Digital sounds really good. Just curious what I
was getting with dts ma.

Thx for everyones help..
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post #14 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

If primary sends bitstream, which sounds correct, then it won't send PCM if you select DTS-HD Master Audio, it will will send the DTS core audio. To send PCM, it would have to decode DTS-HD Master Audio, which you have led me to believe it can't do.

There's more to it than that with this player. The HDMI Normal setting he is using has two options - Primary and Mix. When set to Primary, the player uses the HDMI handshake to determine what to do. The player fallsback in the following order: DTS-HD, DTS, PCM, Mute. Since his soundbar has no DTS capability, the player outputs PCM. (There's another setting called PCM that forces player decoding. But, he's not using that one.)

So, to answer the original question, p36 of the BDP-7200 manual explains that he's getting PCM, which comes from the DTS core because the player can't decode the dts-MA lossless extensions. It is unclear whether he's getting a stereo downmix or all of the channels. That depends on whether the soundbar can handle multichannel PCM input.
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post #15 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

There's more to it than that with this player. The HDMI Normal setting he is using has two options - Primary and Mix. When set to Primary, the player uses the HDMI handshake to determine what to do. The player fallsback in the following order: DTS-HD, DTS, PCM, Mute. Since his soundbar has no DTS capability, the player outputs PCM. (There's another setting called PCM that forces player decoding. But, he's not using that one.)

So, to answer the original question, p36 of the BDP-7200 manual explains that he's getting PCM, which comes from the DTS core because the player can't decode the dts-MA lossless extensions. It is unclear whether he's getting a stereo downmix or all of the channels. That depends on whether the soundbar can handle multichannel PCM input.

JACKPOT. I kind of thought that was it, but in no way could I articulate it.


This is the television:

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...urround_sound/
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Frostylou - if you are only getting stereo, that would explain why it doesn't sound as good as the Dolby tracks, which are discrete 5.1. And, if you are getting stereo, you should set the player to Mix instead of Primary when playing a dts-MA track. The manual says it will re-encode to DD 5.1.
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post #17 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Bislander, I think you have totally nailed this. I think the DTS
is in stereo and thus sounds less discrete and directional. Ok, so I will set the Blu Ray to
mix for a DTS -ma. I don't quite understand what will happen now.
I should get a Dolby 5.1 from the DTS ma track now, and it should sound discrete and directional?
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post #18 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

Bislander, I think you have totally nailed this. I think the DTS
is in stereo and thus sounds less discrete and directional. Ok, so I will set the Blu Ray to
mix for a DTS -ma. I don't quite understand what will happen now.
I should get a Dolby 5.1 from the DTS ma track now, and it should sound discrete and directional?

The TV manual says it only accepts stereo PCM, not multichannel:

Quote:


These inputs accept digital 480i,
480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p video signals plus
PCM digital stereo signals.

The manual also makes no mention of TrueHD decoding, just DD 5.1. So, when you play a TrueHD track, the player will send the DD 5.1 track instead.

So, yes, you will be best off if you set the player to HDMI Normal / Mix. It will then send DD 5.1 when playing TrueHD tracks and DD 5.1 when playing dts-MA tracks. That particular player decodes the DTS track and re-encodes it for output as DD 5.1 when set to Mix, which is perfect for your TV. You'll get the same audio as Primary with Dolby sources and much better audio from dts-MA sources. You'll also get any secondary audio (menu sounds and audio for PIP commentaries).
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post #19 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

There's more to it than that with this player. The HDMI Normal setting he is using has two options - Primary and Mix. When set to Primary, the player uses the HDMI handshake to determine what to do. The player fallsback in the following order: DTS-HD, DTS, PCM, Mute. Since his soundbar has no DTS capability, the player outputs PCM. (There's another setting called PCM that forces player decoding. But, he's not using that one.)

So, to answer the original question, p36 of the BDP-7200 manual explains that he's getting PCM, which comes from the DTS core because the player can't decode the dts-MA lossless extensions. It is unclear whether he's getting a stereo downmix or all of the channels. That depends on whether the soundbar can handle multichannel PCM input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Frostylou - if you are only getting stereo, that would explain why it doesn't sound as good as the Dolby tracks, which are discrete 5.1. And, if you are getting stereo, you should set the player to Mix instead of Primary when playing a dts-MA track. The manual says it will re-encode to DD 5.1.

You just so nailed this. But now I am a bit more confused. I set the DVD player audio to mix. I think you are totally right. The DTS ma track sounds much better and discrete.. ok..

The DTS ma was turned into dolby 5.1 track. So, I assume it is not losless?? Is it a 440kbps or whatever
the standard is. It still sounds better than the DTS ma, with the player set the other way!!

BisaLlnader, thx SO MUCH
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post #20 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Bislander one more quick question.
And here it gets confusing. It says in this release
and I had heard a few other places that the Soundbar in the Mitubushi does get
Dolby True:
http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...urround_sound/


But. You are right. Nothing in the Manuel. Do you think
that means it gets the 640kbps of Dolby True, but it does not really
decode lossless Dolby True. And what I have actually been hearing is
the Blu Ray lagacy 640 Dolby tracks and not 'really' full Dolby True?
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post #21 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

The DTS ma was turned into dolby 5.1 track. So, I assume it is not losless?? Is it a 440kbps or whatever
the standard is.

No, it is not lossless. The player decodes the DTS core track, which is a lossy track. That produces PCM, which is run through a mixer to add in the other audio when available - menu clicks and PIP commentary for the most part. Then, the newly mixed PCM is re-encoded as DD 5.1 for transmission to your TV. The manual doesn't say what bitrate is used on the re-encode, however.

You aren't getting lossless with TrueHD either. Your TV doesn't have a TrueHD decoder. So, even when to Primary, the player will output lossy DD 5.1 instead of TrueHD. When set to Mix, of course, it decodes a hidden DD 5.1 track, does the secondary audio mixing, and re-encodes the mixture as DD 5.1.

Quote:


BisaLlnader, thx SO MUCH

Glad to help.
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post #22 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

Bislander one more quick question.
And here it gets confusing. It says in this release and I had heard a few other places that the Soundbar in the Mitubushi does get Dolby True:
http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...urround_sound/


But. You are right. Nothing in the Manuel. Do you think that means it gets the 640kbps of Dolby True, but it does not really decode lossless Dolby True. And what I have actually been hearing is the Blu Ray lagacy 640 Dolby tracks and not 'really' full Dolby True?

I tend to believe manuals over magazine reviews. The manual makes no mention of TrueHD. It explains how it handles various kinds of audio up to DD 5.1.

So, yes, I suspect you've been hearing DD 5.1, not TrueHD. But, the 640 kbps bitrate means the lossy audio is considerably less compressed than the version you get on DVD. It sounds great, many say it's as good as lossless. Besides, you're never going to get the best audio with a soundbar.
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post #23 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

No, it is not lossless. The player decodes the DTS core track, which is a lossy track. That produces PCM, which is run through a mixer to add in the other audio when available - menu clicks and PIP commentary for the most part. Then, the newly mixed PCM is re-encoded as DD 5.1 for transmission to your TV. The manual doesn't say what bitrate is used on the re-encode, however.

You aren't getting lossless with TrueHD either. Your TV doesn't have a TrueHD decoder. So, even when to Primary, the player will output lossy DD 5.1 instead of TrueHD. When set to Mix, of course, it decodes a hidden DD 5.1 track, does the secondary audio mixing, and re-encodes the mixture as DD 5.1.

Glad to help.

Just one last question Bislander. Dolby True set with
Primary out in the Blu Ray
audio sounds phenomonal. This press realease, and I have seen a few others,
that say the Mitsubishi Soundbar does decode Dolby True:

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...urround_sound/

But you are right. I just checked manuel, and it does not say it.

Have I been just hearing the 640 dd legacy core that is
on Blu Ray discs thinking it was Dolby True losless?
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post #24 of 28 Old 03-25-2010, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Bislander,
thanks for solving this huge complicated question!


Froadtylou
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post #25 of 28 Old 03-26-2010, 10:22 AM
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You had way more patience than I did, Islander. I had not noticed that the TV could not decode DTS. Very odd given how long DTS has been around, and the fact that it has a "sound bar" built in.

Sorry for being unhelpful, but someone else stepped in so all is well

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post #26 of 28 Old 03-26-2010, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

You had way more patience than I did, Islander. I had not noticed that the TV could not decode DTS. Very odd given how long DTS has been around, and the fact that it has a "sound bar" built in.

Sorry for being unhelpful, but someone else stepped in so all is well

You are right Michael..It is strange that there is no dts decoding at all, yet they claim to
decode Dolby True.

Thx for help as well
cheers!
Frosty
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post #27 of 28 Old 03-26-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostylou View Post

You are right Michael..It is strange that there is no dts decoding at all, yet they claim to
decode Dolby True.

In the end, it's still just a TV set and digital TV uses Dolby, not DTS. So, the lack of DTS decoding is not surprising. Nor is the lack of TrueHD decoding (which it does not appear to have despite what the magazine writeup says). Again, TV transmission does not include TrueHD.
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post #28 of 28 Old 03-26-2010, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Great advice Bislander.

Again many thx!
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