Which receivers accept DSD via HDMI, but don't convert it to PCM? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Being that the 2010 models aren't available yet, let's start with the 2009 ones.
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post #2 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 07:41 AM
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Yamaha RX-V1900/RX-V3900, in Pure direct mode. 1701 DAC?

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post #3 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Being that the 2010 models aren't available yet, let's start with the 2009 ones. I know some feel that pure DSD isn't worth the extra money and for many, it's impossible, but my fronts, rears, and center each have a 6&1/2" woofer and 3/4" tweeter. My subwoofer is 10". However, the rest of my speakers sound so good that I actually sometimes think my subwoofer is on when in reality, it's not! So once again, starting from 2009, what receivers can do pure DSD without the 50-KHz filter? P.S. I don't think it's possible to make a thread sticky myself. If any moderator is reading this, I think this thread could be a good database for future reference and should be made sticky.

What do your speaker sizes have to do with DSD? If your sub is properly crossed over from your speakers, DSD/PCM/analog is not going to make it sound like it is on when there is nothing going to it.
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post #4 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 08:52 AM
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which would automatically convert DSD to PCM and I'd lose the highs.

how does that make you lose the highs? Please explain.

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post #5 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

What I mean is that being my fronts, rears, and center each have a 6&1/2" woofer and 3/4" tweeter, they sound like full-range speakers, and I can get fine results with all my speaker sizes set to large. Therefore, I don't need bass management, which would automatically convert DSD to PCM and I'd lose the highs.

Do you really believe that imposition of a 50 KHz filter will affect your perception of high frequencies?

A 6.5" woofer will maybe go down to 40 Hz on a good day. Iwould be willing to bet that your 3/4" tweeter has a significant roll off above 20 KHz. Couple that with your (unknown) age and high frequency hearing accuity, a 50 KHz filter makes zip difference.
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post #6 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 10:07 AM
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I thought your name and topic sounded familiar:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1235600

Seems to me that all your questions were addressed in the other thread and now you are just posting the same stuff in a different forum because you didn't like the answers you got in the other thread. Big waste of time in my opinion.

I'm done with this discussion.
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post #7 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Some receivers have Zone B speaker outputs. I also happen to have two extra speakers, each with a 3" woofer and 1/2" tweeter. If I connect those speakers to the Zone B terminals and stack them on top of my two larger front speakers, would that give me a natural expansion in the frequencies above 20 KHz?

That does not seem like a good idea.

Many years ago, someone came up with the idea of super tweeters, but that idea always seemed dumb to me. Maybe you could look for something like that.

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post #8 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Big C View Post

I agree that we're going off-topic. I did not create this particular thread for the purpose of comparing DSD and PCM, nor did I create it to discuss the cutoff filter. I created this topic simply for the purpose of creating a database of receivers that can digitally accept DSD without converting it to PCM. The second post is a perfect example of what I originally had in mind. I don't mean this negatively, but the posts after the second one asked questions which happened to shift this topic in the direction as discussed in the above link.

So you edited your original question to remove irrelevant information.
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post #9 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Yamaha RX-V1900/RX-V3900, in Pure direct mode. 1701 DAC?

Anything under $1K? If not, I'll have to compromise and settle for a receiver that converts DSD to 176.4KHz PCM, as opposed to 88.2KHz PCM. Of course, if that is still going to cost $1K or more, then I guess I have no choice, except to settle for DSD as 88.2KHz PCM. My intent is to upgrade my system to HDMI components, but it seems that pure DSD receivers are out of my price range.
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post #10 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Anything under $1K? If not, I'll have to compromise and settle for a receiver that converts DSD to 176.4KHz PCM.

Why are you obsessed with this? If you want direct DSD to analog, it is simplest to use the analog outputs of the player fed to an analog preamp or through the MCH analog (bypass) inputs on a receiver. This would, of course, bypass bass/channel management in the receiver.

However, if you do use the bass/channel management in the receiver with the DSD/HDMI input, ALL receivers will convert to PCM anyway.

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post #11 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

If you want direct DSD to analog, it is simplest to use the analog outputs of the player fed to an analog preamp or through the MCH analog (bypass) inputs on a receiver.

This is also assuming the player doesn't do a DSD>>>PCM>>>analog conversion, i.e. Oppo BDP-80. I'm still trying to figure out whether Sony's new Blu-ray players do such a conversion.

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post #12 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ematcion View Post

This is also assuming the player doesn't do a DSD>>>PCM>>>analog conversion, i.e. Oppo BDP-80. I'm still trying to figure out whether Sony's new Blu-ray players do such a conversion.

Right........if you care.

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post #13 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Right........if you care.

Which I do....and why I chose the Onkyo DV-SP506 over the similarly priced Oppo 980 when I purchased it last November.

With the disappearance of the analog multi-channel inputs on new HT receivers, I think the issue of whether there's a PCM conversion before analog in both players and receivers is becoming more important. At least to me, since I would like a one cable connection as well.

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post #14 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ematcion View Post

Which I do....and why I chose the Onkyo DV-SP506 over the similarly priced Oppo 980 when I purchased it last November.

With the disappearance of the analog multi-channel inputs on new HT receivers, I think the issue of whether there's a PCM conversion before analog in both players and receivers is becoming more important. At least to me, since I would like a one cable connection as well.

OK. I do not see this as an important issue since PCM conversion is necessary for bass/channel management and I regard those functions as obligatory for multichannel.

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post #15 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

OK. I do not see this as an important issue since PCM conversion is necessary for bass/channel management and I regard those functions as obligatory for multichannel.

Oh, regarding the DSD/PCM conversion issue, I was coming from a 2 channel stereo perspective. On the other hand, you're completely correct about the multi-channel surround aspect of the conversion. On top of that, I suspect many DSD>>>PCM>>>analog conversion is transparent enough that most of us can't really tell such a conversion was taking place.

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post #16 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ematcion View Post

Oh, regarding the DSD/PCM conversion issue, I was coming from a 2 channel stereo perspective. On the other hand, you're completely correct about the multi-channel surround aspect of the conversion. On top of that, I suspect many DSD>>>PCM>>>analog conversion is transparent enough that most of us can't really tell such a conversion was taking place.

I agree but did not want to introduce a potentially inflammatory point.

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post #17 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I agree but did not want to introduce a potentially inflammatory point.

That trait puts you into a very small minority of the posters here. My hat is off to you! (seriously!)

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post #18 of 24 Old 03-26-2010, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Right now, I use a Pioneer Elite DV-58AV universal SD player connected via Composite video and multi-channel analog audio to a Yamaha HTR-5935 receiver. After all the research, I have discovered that it's the best pure DSD I could get for the money. However, when I upgrade to Blu-ray, I will more than likely need to upgrade my receiver and player. If I keep my current receiver and swap the DV-58AV for an Oppo BDP-83, that would be an economicly efficient approach of getting Blu-ray and SACD, but I would only be getting DSD up to 50 KHz because of the cutoff filter the Oppo uses via analog. However, if there is no pure DSD receiver for under $1000, I would connect an Oppo BDP-80, have it send DSD via HDMI and accept a DSD-to-176.4-KHz-PCM conversion because that way, I'd have a frequency response of up to 80 KHz, which is close to 100 KHz, as opposed to a DSD-to-88.2-KHz-PCM conversion, which would only provide a frequency response of up to 40 KHz. So are there receivers for under $1000 that convert DSD to 176.4 KHz PCM?
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post #19 of 24 Old 03-27-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Right now, I use a Pioneer Elite DV-58AV universal SD player connected via Composite video and multi-channel analog audio to a Yamaha HTR-5935 receiver. After all the research, I have discovered that it's the best pure DSD I could get for the money. However, when I upgrade to Blu-ray, I will more than likely need to upgrade my receiver and player. If I keep my current receiver and swap the DV-58AV for an Oppo BDP-83, that would be an economicly efficient approach of getting Blu-ray and SACD, but I would only be getting DSD up to 50 KHz because of the cutoff filter the Oppo uses via analog. However, if there is no pure DSD receiver for under $1000, I would connect an Oppo BDP-80, have it send DSD via HDMI and accept a DSD-to-176.4-KHz-PCM conversion because that way, I'd have a frequency response of up to 80 KHz, which is close to 100 KHz, as opposed to a DSD-to-88.2-KHz-PCM conversion, which would only provide a frequency response of up to 40 KHz. So are there receivers for under $1000 that convert DSD to 176.4 KHz PCM?

Do you really think that you can discern a FR to 100KHz from a FR to only 80KHz? Are you a bat?

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post #20 of 24 Old 03-27-2010, 08:37 AM
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"Do you really think that you can discern a FR to 100KHz from a FR to only 80KHz? Are you a bat?"

More to the point... do you really think DSD has any useful signal to noise ratio up that high? Unlike PCM, DSD's noise floor increases with frequency.

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post #21 of 24 Old 03-27-2010, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Do you really think that you can discern a FR to 100KHz from a FR to only 80KHz? Are you a bat?"

More to the point... do you really think DSD has any useful signal to noise ratio up that high? Unlike PCM, DSD's noise floor increases with frequency.

Shawn

DSD SNR up at about 80kHz is still about 60 dB, about the level of vinyl.
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post #22 of 24 Old 04-06-2010, 11:02 AM
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In case anyone is wondering about the just announced Onkyo 308, 508 and 608 HT receivers, here's a reply I just received from Onkyo regarding those receivers' ability to decode DSD (or not)....

Quote:


DSD Stands for DIRECT STREAM DIGITAL it is only available through HDMI Multichannel and is the format used to store digital audio on Super Audio CD's (SACD). This mode can be used with SACDs that feature Multichannel audio. DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM. The A/V receiver can input DSD signal from HDMI IN. Setting the output setting on the player side to PCM might obtain a better sound according to the player. If you can select PCM or DSD output on your SACD player, in some cases, selecting PCM will provide the best sound quality.


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post #23 of 24 Old 05-31-2010, 01:33 PM
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for my basement office I picked up the TX-SR308 receiver from onkyo. it's a 2010 model and it's 3D ready, does all HD audio codecs and yes, it does DSD from SACD via HDMI with no PCM conversion. i'm very happy with it in my basement office and it's got plenty of power for the space and of course i got it for $230.oo and free shipping from newegg so you just can't beat that. it doesn't have pre-outs for an external amp but i don't care about that cause it's in a room that doesn't need an amp to power the speakers. other than that, it's price to performance is of a ratio that's very high!

hope this helps!

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post #24 of 24 Old 05-31-2010, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ematcion View Post

In case anyone is wondering about the just announced Onkyo 308, 508 and 608 HT receivers, here's a reply I just received from Onkyo regarding those receivers' ability to decode DSD (or not)....

there are also SACD's in stereo only that are DSD capable so it's not just limited to multichannel SACD's. i have a ton of stereo DSD SACD'S.

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