The "Official" Pioneer VSX-1020-K Owner's Thread - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 4578 Old 07-18-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twarman17 View Post

My speaker wire is 16 gauge purchased a few years ago at ABT (abt.com standard speaker wire). It says on the wire "16AWG Hiflex Speaker Wire FT4".

I'm curious to see what gauge speaker wire Gelineau is using. If it's 28awg, he probably just need to try a thicker cable (at least 24awg).
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post #1082 of 4578 Old 07-18-2010, 11:43 PM
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I've swapped out the 1020 for another, but the white noise is even worse now! I'm convinced, as well as the Magnolia specialist, that the 1020 does process deep color mode. what a shame such a good sounding amp. I'm waiting on the new elite with the new video processor, see if that one is any better.

"Basically, what deep color does is expand the colors on the display from millions to billions. This gives the display a vividness and color accuracy which has never been seen before in display technology. Deep Color defines colors by using an algorithm that can specify any color in that is found in nature. Deep Color eliminates the on-screen color banding, for tonal transitions that are smooth and graduations of color that are very subtle. It enables increased contrast ratio, and may represent many times more shades of gray between black and white. Deep color with a color bit depth of 24 bit is usually called true color. However, some people use the term true color interchangeably with deep color."
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post #1083 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

I've swapped out the 1020 for another, but the white noise is even worse now! I'm convinced, as well as the Magnolia specialist, that the 1020 does process deep color mode. what a shame such a good sounding amp. I'm waiting on the new elite with the new video processor, see if that one is any better.

"Basically, what deep color does is expand the colors on the display from millions to billions. This gives the display a vividness and color accuracy which has never been seen before in display technology. Deep Color defines colors by using an algorithm that can specify any color in that is found in nature. Deep Color eliminates the on-screen color banding, for tonal transitions that are smooth and graduations of color that are very subtle. It enables increased contrast ratio, and may represent many times more shades of gray between black and white. Deep color with a color bit depth of 24 bit is usually called true color. However, some people use the term true color interchangeably with deep color."

I have no problem passing 30 bit and 36 bit to my 9g kuro via the 1020. help us understand a bit better source and display you have. i worry something else is wrong and the 1020 is being blamed.
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post #1084 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 06:10 AM
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Hi,
The question was asked, "How can you damage speakers by under-powering?"

I am more in the Pro Audio realm with Bands, etc.
The concept of damaging your speakers by under-powering them is because you will be tempted to push what little power you have,
to get the result that you want, in doing so many people will drive their power amps into clipping and fry the voice coil.
However as long as you are responsible, know your limitations and do not drive your amp to clipping then you will be fine.
How far you would have to go to do this with a home receiver I do not know,
does the Pioneer 1020 or any receiver for that matter actually have a "Clip" light?
If not, there in lies a lot of the danger, in that you could be clipping the amp section and not even know it.
Pioneer would be best to answer this theoretical question.
You would definitely want to match the speakers "Ohms" to the amp as correctly as possible.
You can find out about all of the Theory and practical usage at http://www.prosoundweb.com/
Please do not ask questions in their Forums...It is not for or about Home Use Receivers.
Still there is a lot of information available in regards to Speakers, Crossovers, Amps, and Equalization.
Theory that you can carry over into your home setting.
If you really want to go that deep.

Later,
Bud
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post #1085 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 06:36 AM
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twarman17:

It might be an issue with receiver's abilities to play loud noises at that level. -3 is a very high volume and, as winston has mentioned before, these units are respectively under-powered when compared to similar Onkyo models. I would ask winston to comment and/or check his web site (www.winstonreviews.com) for a more informed analysis.
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post #1086 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadrophenia View Post

twarman17:

It might be an issue with receiver's abilities to play loud noises at that level. -3 is a very high volume and, as winston has mentioned before, these units are respectively under-powered when compared to similar Onkyo models. I would ask winston to comment and/or check his web site (www.winstonreviews.com) for a more informed analysis.

the 1020 has adequate power for normal listening levels with efficient speakers. one should not rely on this receiver to push inefficient or low ohm speakers.

-3 is very loud and begs some questions as to the size of a room and what speakers need that much power to be driven.

in both my denon and pioneer setups, i tend to consider -20 loud enough for intense movie watching. normal tv watching hovers between -30 and -25 depending on the source. comparing the 1020 to my 9140, the 1020 does begin to show some distortion at -0, which is too loud for me to listen to for more than a few seconds.

the amps of the 1020 are very efficient, but remember they are only drawing 250 watts.
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post #1087 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I have no problem passing 30 bit and 36 bit to my 9g kuro via the 1020. help us understand a bit better source and display you have. i worry something else is wrong and the 1020 is being blamed.

I have a samsung 9600 3dbluray, samsung 8000 series plasma. when i bypass the 1020, connect from bd to tv, via hdmi and select "true color/deep color" to on there is no issue. when going form bd to 1020 and then to tv, there is white dots "snow" all over the screen.
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post #1088 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

I have a samsung 9600 3dbluray, samsung 8000 series plasma. when i bypass the 1020, connect from bd to tv, via hdmi and select "true color/deep color" to on there is no issue. when going form bd to 1020 and then to tv, there is white dots "snow" all over the screen.

how far of a stretch are you adding with the second hdmi cable?

snow or sprinkles is almost always indicative of an hdmi cable problems
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post #1089 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post

Hi,
The question was asked, "How can you damage speakers by under-powering?"

I am more in the Pro Audio realm with Bands, etc.
The concept of damaging your speakers by under-powering them is because you will be tempted to push what little power you have,
to get the result that you want, in doing so many people will drive their power amps into clipping and fry the voice coil.
However as long as you are responsible, know your limitations and do not drive your amp to clipping then you will be fine.
How far you would have to go to do this with a home receiver I do not know,
does the Pioneer 1020 or any receiver for that matter actually have a "Clip" light?
If not, there in lies a lot of the danger, in that you could be clipping the amp section and not even know it.
Pioneer would be best to answer this theoretical question.
You would definitely want to match the speakers "Ohms" to the amp as correctly as possible.
You can find out about all of the Theory and practical usage at http://www.prosoundweb.com/
Please do not ask questions in their Forums...It is not for or about Home Use Receivers.
Still there is a lot of information available in regards to Speakers, Crossovers, Amps, and Equalization.
Theory that you can carry over into your home setting.
If you really want to go that deep.

Later,
Bud

I'm aware of the clipping effect, just "damage by under-powering" is an improper way to describe that. In reality the clipping can kill speakers by over-powering and/or because the distorted signal has a full spectrum that puts more pressure on the speaker mechanically.
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post #1090 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

in both my denon and pioneer setups, i tend to consider -20 loud enough for intense movie watching. normal tv watching hovers between -30 and -25 depending on the source. comparing the 1020 to my 9140, the 1020 does begin to show some distortion at -0, which is too loud for me to listen to for more than a few seconds.

Same here, at least as to the Pioneer 1020. I will only take mine above -15 on very rare occasions when I'm trying to show the system off for someone. Otherwise, -35 to -25 is usually more than enough, and as winston said -20 for intense movie watching. But, I'm in a fairly small room (2200 cu. ft.) I'd guess that unless you're in a 5000 cu. ft. room or larger, -3 would be unpleasantly loud and you may need to take a look at your speakers if you need to crank it up that high to get an acceptable volume (I'm not at all familiar with the system you have, so sorry that I can't be of any help there). It's also possible that you have a defective unit if -3 volume is necessary.

If, on the other hand, you just like to play it really loud, the 1020 may not be capable of the power output you're looking for.
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post #1091 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 09:01 AM
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I thought that I'd inject some positivity into this thread lest a visitor think that everyone has a problem with their 1020.

Please note that I am NOT an audiophile. My money has always gone into the TV and I have often found that mediocre sound quality does not bother me nearly as much as bad video. My house is very open, sound really travels from my in-wall speakers and I have small children, so I rarely turn the volume way up. This explains why my TV is a 50" Pio Kuro 9G panel and my reciever has been, for the last 16 YEARS, a Pio Elite analog receiver (no HDMI, no component, no OSD, no digital audio, no 21st century bells and whistles. . . .). My speakers are a mixed bag: decent but old Paradigm center and subwoofer, crap builders' quality in-wall and in-ceiling LR fronts and rears. I have the Logitech Harmony One remote.

So with that in mind, and irrespective of the negativity in this thread (much of which deals with complicated receiver issues that are over my head), I purchased the 1020 and have been setting up and playing with it for 3 days. In short, I AM VERY HAPPY!

Setup was a breeze, the OSD is very user friendly and MCACC was amazing. I checked the settings after running the full auto MCACC, and it totally compensated for my unusual setup that has a right front speaker much further from center than the left, and a rear left speaker almost directly above the main viewing spot (told you I wasn't an audiophile!).

Even to my apathetic ears, I immediately noticed a real improvement in sound quality. Dialog is crisp, music has depth and richness and effects are cleaner and clearer. Because of proper calibration, the reciever's use of rears and sub are now much better and appropriate for the source; making for much more engaging viewing. I don't notice any difference in video quality, which is exactly as I'd hoped considering that before, all boxes were run separately to the plasma via HDMI, and now they are run through the receiver with one HDMI out to the plasma.

Remote setup using the Logitech software was a snap and took mere minutes. Thanks to those who went before me ensuring that Logitech had a workable database for the 1020.

The 1020 has more bells and whistles than I could ever want, and most will go unused and untested by me. While I'm sure I will play with the settings as my comfort level increases, so far I see no reason to change the Auto MCACC settings and no reason to switch from Auto Surround mode so the receiver detects the source and chooses the right format.

Finally, I know that it has been covered before, but I would like to reiterate how cool the box runs. I have no choice but to stack my components (or lose the subwoofer), so it was important to me that I not get a unit that gets very hot and needs supplemental airflow. I'm not sure it's 100% necessary, but I use 4 black plastic desk grommets from Lowes to elevate another 1.5" the DVD player that sits on the receiver. They are not noticeable at all and I don't think that I will have any heat problems given how relatively cool the unit runs.

Frankly, with the level of in-depth review, discussion and critique that you see in this thread, I am surprised that so many very knowledgeable people are interested in a non-Elite, <$500 receiver. IMO, this is the perfect box for the price range. Criticism will always be louder than praise, but I hope that this post can serve to balance it out just a bit and show that there are extremely happy 1020 owners out there.
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post #1092 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

how far of a stretch are you adding with the second hdmi cable?

snow or sprinkles is almost always indicative of an hdmi cable problems


i've switched cables; thought it was that at first. i'm using the chocolate 3 meters. i've used the Monoprice hdmi cable(1.4) as well.
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post #1093 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

i've switched cables; thought it was that at first. i'm using the chocolate 3 meters. i've used the Monoprice hdmi cable(1.4) as well.

and you're still getting sprinkles?

do you get the sprinkles on 2d 1080p signals? 24 and 60hz?
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post #1094 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

and you're still getting sprinkles?

do you get the sprinkles on 2d 1080p signals? 24 and 60hz?


the only time i have the noise is when the true color mode is on on the bluray player, the receiver is unable to distinquish whether the signal is 1080p, 24 or 60hz. when the tcm if off there are no issues.
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post #1095 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 11:04 AM
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ferky1:

Thanks for that -- good point on people getting the wrong idea about the Pioneer 1020. And, I can assure you that you're far from alone in being an extremely happy owner of a 1020. I think most here would agree that it is a great unit. I for one could not be happier with mine. It's definitely important for everyone perusing this forum to keep in mind that it's mainly a place for those with questions and/or issues to discuss and hopefully resolve them -- and for every one person who has a such an issue, there are many others (like you and me) who are very happy with this receiver.
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post #1096 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

i've switched cables; thought it was that at first. i'm using the chocolate 3 meters. i've used the Monoprice hdmi cable(1.4) as well.

what gauge cables?
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post #1097 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 11:55 AM
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Could anyone here who owns a Samsung XXc8000 please answer this question for me. If you are running everything (HDMI) through your receiver, what gauge cable are you using? I was previously using a 3311ci with 28awg hdmi 1.4 cable and was getting some serious banding issues. The only way I could fix it was to turn the Video Convert to OFF. Video Convert may be called something else on the Pio, but it basically lets the video processor on the receiver handle everything (upscaling non hdmi sources, as well as utilize the OSD).

So, could those of you running this similar setup please help me out here? I'm looking for a new receiver thats 3d capable, but my previous Denon seemed to have issues. Below are pictures of what I'm talking about.

Video Convert ON


Video Convert OFF



Thanks!
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post #1098 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadrophenia View Post

Same here, at least as to the Pioneer 1020. I will only take mine above -15 on very rare occasions when I'm trying to show the system off for someone. Otherwise, -35 to -25 is usually more than enough, and as winston said -20 for intense movie watching. But, I'm in a fairly small room (2200 cu. ft.) I'd guess that unless you're in a 5000 cu. ft. room or larger, -3 would be unpleasantly loud and you may need to take a look at your speakers if you need to crank it up that high to get an acceptable volume (I'm not at all familiar with the system you have, so sorry that I can't be of any help there). It's also possible that you have a defective unit if -3 volume is necessary.

If, on the other hand, you just like to play it really loud, the 1020 may not be capable of the power output you're looking for.


Thanks for the info. Here are the specs for my speakers, should these be able to handle -3? If the speakers can handle that volume (paid around $1000 for the set so I hope they can), then do I need to get a more powerful receiver to handle -3 without having an automatic noticeable reduction in volume during intense battle scenes? Thanks again, and let me say that I am very happy with the 1020-K in all other respects and recommend it.

Here are the specs for Canton 5.1 speaker system:

Manufacturer: Canton

MPN Movie150QXBK

Key Features
Speakers Function System
Nominal Power 120 Watt RMS
Connectivity Cable
Construction 2-Way
Magnetic Shielding Magnetically Shielded
Technical Features
Frequency Reponse 30 Hz - 14000 kHz
Sensitivity 88 dB
Impedance 8 ohm
Components
Subwoofer Power 120 Watt
Woofer Material Polymer Composite
Woofer Size 7.87"
Tweeter Size 3.54"


Manufacturer: Canton.
Part Number:Movie150QXBK. .
General
Product Type 5.1-channel Home theater speaker system .Dimensions (WxDxH) / Weight Details Satellite speaker : 4.3 in x 4.7 in x 6.3 in / 2.6 lbs , Center channel speaker : 11.4 in x 4.7 in x 4.3 in / 4.9 lbs , Subwoofer : 11 in x 16.5 in x 18.3 in / 28.7 lbs .Enclosure Color Black .Enclosure Material Aluminum , Cellulose/graphite .Available Body Colors Black , Silver .Speaker System
System Components Subwoofer , 5 speakers .Speaker Type 2-way - Active subwoofer, passive satellites .Sensitivity 88 dB .Crossover Frequency 3900Hz , 80 - 140Hz .Magnetic Shield Yes .Connectivity Technology Wired .Controls Subwoofer cut frequency , Subwoofer volume control .Additional Features Satellite magnetic shield .Speaker System Details
Speakers Included - Wall-mountable , 4 x Satellite speaker - 2-way - 120 Watt - 45 - 25000 Hz - 4/8 Ohm - Floor-standing - Wired , 1 x Center channel speaker - 2-way - 120 Watt - 45 - 25000 Hz - 4/8 Ohm - Wired , 1 x Subwoofer - 120 Watt - 30 - 140 Hz - Wired .Driver Details Subwoofer : 1 x Subwoofer driver - 200 mm - Cellulose/graphite .Driver Details Satellite speaker : 1 x Woofer driver - 90mm , Satellite speaker : 1 x Tweeter driver - 15mm - Aluminum .Driver Details Center channel speaker : 2 x Woofer driver - 90mm , Center channel speaker : 1 x Tweeter driver - 15mm - Aluminum

Sharp LC-80LE844U
Denon AVR-3312CI
Denon DBT-1713UD
Toshiba HD-A35
Sony Playstation 3
Canton MOVIE150SIL
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post #1099 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skooba View Post

what gauge cables?


not sure on the gauge size exactly, at least a 1/4" thick if not more.
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post #1100 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 02:15 PM
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Is it possible to run a 3.1 speaker setup (left, center, right, sub) with the 1020K? My room setup doesn't allow any rear speakers and surround is not really my main goal. But having a center dialog speaker and a sub would give me a better experience than just a 2 or 2.1 setup.

Can the 1020K support this?

Thanks!
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post #1101 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

not sure on the gauge size exactly, at least a 1/4" thick if not more.

see if you can find out. i've read that if passing through a receiver, you need at least 24awg, otherwise it can cause issues.
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post #1102 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JChin View Post

The Xbox 360 can have a second audio out if you purchase a Xbox 360 Audio Adaptor (now you can direct connect to RS130 using an optical cable if the Sennheiser RS130 accept optical connection).

That would certainly have worked (for the RCAs outputs only, Sennheiser 130s are pure analog). I programmed my Harmony to switch to HDMI pass-through for all the different sources, but just upgraded to a new monitor that lacks analog audio outputs, so that solution no longer works. It seems I can either keep my current kludge together with a $100 DAC, or just buy the $10 Xbox adapter and not worry about TV and movies with the phones. Or buy new optical-capable phones.
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post #1103 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twarman17 View Post

The auto setup made everything small - based on my specs my speakers should be set to large?

Just manually set all speakers to large, re-tested and the problem still exists. Do I need to re-run the auto MCACC setup after manually changing speakers to large?

The woofer spec is for your sub I looked up your speakers and there is no way they are larger than 5.25 they are only 4.3 inches tall. Small is right. I am running out of ideas. Did you try turning loudness on? Also what is your source? Could there be a dynamic range control on your source doing this?
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post #1104 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twarman17 View Post

Thanks for the info. Here are the specs for my speakers, should these be able to handle -3? If the speakers can handle that volume (paid around $1000 for the set so I hope they can), then do I need to get a more powerful receiver to handle -3 without having an automatic noticeable reduction in volume during intense battle scenes? Thanks again, and let me say that I am very happy with the 1020-K in all other respects and recommend it.

I'm not knowledgeable to analyze your speaker specs, but maybe someone who knows more about that will chime in. However, my suspicion is that, because your speakers are 8 ohms (which is good) and its a fairly new set (also good), my guess is that you're facing one of three scenarios:
1) Your receiver is defective and isn't driving your speakers at appropriate levels;
2) Your setup is in a very large room, requiring you to intentionally set the receiver at high volumes, in which case you may need a more powerful receiver; or,
3) You like listening at exceptionally high volumes, in which case you may need a more powerful receiver.

I'd caution you in thinking that there is nothing wrong with your receiver -- you could very well have a defective unit. Something just doesn't seem right about the need to turn the receiver all the way up to -3, so it may help to diagnose the problem if you could indicate how big your room is. In my 2200 cu. ft. room, -3 is literally unbearably loud, but I recognize that volume that high may be your preference.

In short, my guess is that the problem you're experiencing is somehow related to the receiver's lack of power and not your speakers. Whether that lack of power is due to a defect with your particular unit or its inability to power at the levels you want/need will require a little more info.
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post #1105 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skooba View Post

see if you can find out. i've read that if passing through a receiver, you need at least 24awg, otherwise it can cause issues.

it's much bigger than 24awg, it's somewhere around 14awg.
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post #1106 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubbamill View Post

Is it possible to run a 3.1 speaker setup (left, center, right, sub) with the 1020K? My room setup doesn't allow any rear speakers and surround is not really my main goal. But having a center dialog speaker and a sub would give me a better experience than just a 2 or 2.1 setup.

Can the 1020K support this?

Thanks!

Yes in MCACC you can setup and disable speakers in many configurations.
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post #1107 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

it's much bigger than 24awg, it's somewhere around 14awg.

I doubt it. Highest gauge HDMI cable I have seen is 22 AWG at 14 it wouldnt even bend with all those wires twisted together.
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post #1108 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by artmansr View Post

it's much bigger than 24awg, it's somewhere around 14awg.

no 14awg hdmi cables exist...

the comment about it needing to be 24awg or above to go through an avr is completely incorrect...

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post #1109 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


no 14awg hdmi cables exist...

the comment about it needing to be 24awg or above to go through an avr is completely incorrect...

Where do you find an 14awg hdmi cable. Even the 100 foot ones at monoprice are 22awg.
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post #1110 of 4578 Old 07-19-2010, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbamill View Post

Is it possible to run a 3.1 speaker setup (left, center, right, sub) with the 1020K? My room setup doesn't allow any rear speakers and surround is not really my main goal. But having a center dialog speaker and a sub would give me a better experience than just a 2 or 2.1 setup.

Can the 1020K support this?

Thanks!

It will work, but I don't think the receiver will be able to re-mix a 5.1 DVD/Blu-Ray Dolby/DTS track into a 3.1 track -- anything sent to the surrounds won't be re-integrated into the front left and front right. In other words, even though you can set it up as a 3.1 in MCACC, you'll still lose anything that gets sent to the surround speakers.

I agree with you that this is still a better option than 2.0 or 2.1, at least for movies.
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