How to DIY ; TX-SR576/TX-SR606/etc HDMI daughterboard repair (for dummies?) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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--------------------------------- PART 1 ----------------------------------
Did your ONKYO work great for a year or more and then start exhibiting difficulty locking or remaining locked on your HDMI stream ? Do you need to warm it up like a 1957 television and it keeps getting longer ? Some of you instead lose component video sources or On Screen Display from its HDMI out.
Well my unit finally became unbearable and after a few hours of time well wasted on the internet, the uncertain deed was attempted. This post is an effort to enlighten those who may be interested too. I figured that eventually as these AVRs age beyond warranty, some of you may want to also take matters into your own hands.
This guide is based on my own '576, but should benefit other models in the design family with HDMI related failures provided that you extrapolate the concepts to fit your application.

A must read, especially for 606 owners, later in this thread (circa 3 months later); http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18993413 It takes some of the guesswork out of what I didn't know when this thread was started (TYVM mycotopian !)

Now for your amusement, some visual aids.....


_____________WARRANTY VOID PAST THIS POINT______________

*Besides the obvious required shell removal, the HDMI board is secured by a screw on each port and a plastic riser
*Power ribbon release requires you to press down on the plug's top surface ( See below pic; push before and until ribbon has been easily liberated or you may damage it like others will sadly report )
*Higher end models will have other interconnects to remove thanks to the A/D+upscaler+OSD
*Daughterboard will detach from the host at the three sockets. Something like a large flat blade screwdriver being twisted (wrap with tape to avoid gouging the vertical board) can be used as a wedge between the two boards in conjunction with pulling. There is room near the front-most socket. Just be sure that you have missed no HDMI port screws first )
Attachment 174313





*We are ,at a minimum, interested in removing/replacing all caps marked '100'(uF)
*It's easiest to just break the leads using a 1/16 turn, twisting motion
Attachment 174314





*Just repeat a back and forth motion until it eventually lets go (a dozen or more 'twists')
*It's important to not overtorque the traces as complications result (don't make me post video )
Attachment 174315





*Comparitive size of the offenders highlights the dexterity involved
*My board only had six (top+bottom) but higher end versions are fully populated and seem to have eight or ten
Attachment 174316





*I suggest using non-SMD replacements as they allow for improved soldering access
*Be sure to get polarized, 'radial', 100uF/10V (6.3 minimum)/105`C rated caps (I see 85`C versions on the board underneath ) <-('S3K' edit within)
-- for the purests out there, this is close to OEM; http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...t%252bxg%3d%3d -- <-(added thanks to 'NoAVsense')
*Match the new cap's negative (shorter lead or ' - ' marking) to the square side of the silkscreened outline on the board (where the black marked side of the old cap was) ; or refer to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...6&postcount=15 and note that, for the most part, the points of the red arrows are touching the negative terminal. <-(added thanks to 'navtek'/'chupinsky27')
*The old cap's terminal stubs preferably should be desoldered otherwise watch out for bridges (shorts) should one wander
*My iron's tip is fatter than I would have preferred
*minimize heating time to prevent trace or cap damage
Attachment 174317


It would be ideal to replace all the caps on this board ( or AVR for that matter ) We are hoping to narrow that down considerably by doing some analysis coupled with good old trial-and-error.

Your situation may be less advanced ; same problem but less symptomatic. Your troubles could be multiple ; beyond the scope of this guide.( ie EEPROM ) Also, a higher valued model further justifies the cost of a professional repair. Early adopters who report positive results could help you decide.

[ UPDATE;December 2011: Common theme among positive feedback is that restoring just the HDMI switch is easier than achieving OSD and Upconversion. Brute force replacement seems to be more effective than keeping the parts count low... but YMMV. To those who seemed to have or will join AVSforum just to express gratitude, I say the effort is greatly received! ]

Use common (?) sense with patience and you'll probably have a much more cooperative piece of equipment once it's put back together...what do you mean you can't remember how it goes together? (lol) Good Luck !

[ to be continued...addressing the root cause ]
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post #2 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 12:57 AM
 
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So replacing the caps will solve the HDMI issues? Wow...
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post #3 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 12:59 AM
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Cool thread. Thanks for sharing, even though I hope I never need it for my Onkyo (805).

-Max
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post #4 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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ping runnin' : Most likely* able to solve the common degenerative 'issues' ; won't improve something that never worked, just to be clear. ( *first attempt, need more feedback )

ping maxcooper : I can't be 100% on which model/build dates are applicable, but you are surely kind for expressing that.
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post #5 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 04:09 AM
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What led you to key on the caps?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #6 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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------------------------- PART 2 -----------------------------
OK, so you have tried PART 1 and it's working - congratulations - but don't be silly and put that cover back on.....we won't be needing that anymore, unless you want to perpetuate the grief. Ridonkulous, you're thinking, where else are you going to pile those DVD cases . Fine, just as long as you complete the repair by adding active ventilation/circulation !. I'm not going to elaborate on what other resourceful forum members have already put out there....just remember you've already crossed that line and have warmed up the iron. I'm currently wrestling with an elegant solution for a PART 3...

in the meantime ;

*Here is the re-capped board as viewed from the top. No improvement after these initial two were changed
*I added a CPU cooling fan connector (previously enjoyed) to an unpopulated capacitor pad ('606 and others won't be empty). It supplies around 9-10 volts (thru the 2 1N4007 diodes) which should quiet the eventual internal fan
Attachment 174320





*This is the bottom view and worth noting is that after replacing the two uppermost caps, all malfunctioning ceased (tested after every second cap). They reside in an area directly above the smokin' hot transistor/heatsink seen in the image that follows this - coincidence ???
*optional: a small dab of RTV silicone, colour of your choice, will keep these new caps secure during any rough rides
Attachment 174321





*While apart, I added a 'previously enjoyed' heatsink to the Bridge Rectifier ('cause it burnt my finger). Although silkscreened on the PCB, this likely was omitted on the '576 due to the absent processor/components on the HDMI board.
*This area is just begging for circulation IMO
Attachment 174322




*I came across the following manufacturer's suggested design circuit example. These boards use this verbatim as the initial supply for the regulators we are ultimately targeting. The 470 and 220uF caps involved are not on the hot underside and as such are a lower priority on the replacement wish-list.
Attachment 174323



If you've read this far, great, but this has become more FYI than DIY.
Many have observed how temperature affects the faulty ONKYO but I can elaborate. While my unit would be on the verge of instability with artifacts in the video, I'd barely cool* the chip SiI9185' (3to1 HDMI switch) and the signal disappeared until it warmed. Same conditions, cooling* neighbouring chip SiI9013' (HDMI receiver) and the signal became flawless temporarily. IOW change a chip's tolerance to noisy power by means of temperature. (Initially I feared faulty chips!) This helps explain the commonly reported wait times after first powering on.
( *with an inverted can of 'electronics duster' - yes, a third use ;-)

[ to be continued....bullet-proof or bust ]
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post #7 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What led you to key on the caps?

Logical question Chu Gai. Within the novel I read on the subject ( actually a series of 1328 short stories, aka posts ) there were 2 or 3 references to 8-10 capacitors on repair invoices. One vic actually quoted a long ONKYO part number...g00gled it to one Euro site which added (something)4V100M or so and that finally focused me. No single post, but the sum of the parts.

( I'll try to fill missing info/questions regularly )
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post #8 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 07:10 AM
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It all boils down to heat. What's your elevation where you live in Alberta? I've had Rotel gear that would not work here in NM at 5,000 ft (1,525 m) but worked perfectly when sent back to Rotel in New Jersey (or wherever they are). I don't think the manufacturers test at high altitude for proper cooling.

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post #9 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 07:20 AM
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Quote:


I don't think the manufacturers test at high altitude for proper cooling.

Its it harder to cool things at 5,000ft? I guess, since I remember something about boiling being different at 5,000ft. Sorry I have forgot a lot about that stuff from 25 years ago.

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post #10 of 860 Old 04-29-2010, 07:32 AM
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Lower air density at altitude reduces heat transfer. Projectors have a high altitude setting that cranks up the fan to compensate. If the hardware is marginal at sea level there can be problems at altitude. Onkyo units are famous for running hot already.

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post #11 of 860 Old 04-30-2010, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Penngray, for the purposes of dissipating heat in our electronics, the boiling of water instead has more of an effect on my macaroni and cheese....which by the way, I could almost cook on top of this onkyo some days. Water does boil at a measureably lower temperature at higher altitudes.
OTOH, as petew's point is valid in principle (barometric pressure+relative humidity=mass), but it won't make or break an epic fail design. PIXAR is currently producing an animation for this thread but in the meantime they sent me this sneak peak; Attachment 174398



>>>>>>>> TX-SR5xx/6xx/xx layout, cross-section looking left2right <<<<<<<<br /> HS = Heat Sink ( Heat Source )

Notice on the left side there is dead air space where heat accumulates between the three horizontal boards. IMO, impedance to airflow and/or environment ambient temperature becomes more of a factor here then it's 'mass'.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm looking forward to hearing from anybody who attempts or verifies this thread.....TIA
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post #12 of 860 Old 04-30-2010, 10:38 AM
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Forgot about humidity. As my drunk friend Marvin likes to say:
"It's dryer'n a popcorn fart in New Mexico"

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post #13 of 860 Old 04-30-2010, 05:10 PM
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Thanks for the post and the research done. I'm looking forward to reading more on this before I attempt it myself.
How much of a difference in the syncing have you observed after change the caps?

[quote=CZ_the_DAY;18557196]------------------------- PART 2 -----------------------------
OK, so you have tried PART 1 and it's working - congratulations - but don't be silly and put that cover back on.....we won't be needing that anymore, unless you want to perpetuate the grief. Ridonkulous, you're thinking, where else are you going to pile those DVD cases . Fine, just as long as you complete the repair by adding active ventilation/circulation !. I'm not going to elaborate on what other resourceful forum members have already put out there....just remember you've already crossed that line and have warmed up the iron. I'm currently wrestling with an elegant solution for a PART 3...
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post #14 of 860 Old 04-30-2010, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post

Forgot about humidity. As my drunk friend Marvin likes to say:
"It's dryer'n a popcorn fart in New Mexico"

lol, sounds like your friend knows how to compensate for the dryness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lummy View Post

Thanks for the post........How much of a difference in the syncing have you observed after change the caps?

lummy, this OiNK' now behaves like I remember. Typically 5 seconds from cold power up or input switching until picture. I exclusively run my PC (ATI HD4650) on a 47PFL3603D Philips. At it's worst it wouldn't sync cold and once 'warm' it had varying amounts of visual noise and audio snaps when it wasn't losing it altogether. Hopefully yours goes well!
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post #15 of 860 Old 05-01-2010, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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--------------------------------------------PART 2.5----------------------------------------------
UPDATE; December 2011: Although the following exerpt is an insight towards the adding of auxilliary capacitors, there are more examples littered throughout this thread. I soon describe how to determine if your situation requires this additional measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macks1974 View Post

Work Performed
Replaced C8072, C8096, C8602, C8609 and added 4 TF caps on HDMI board per Onkyo tech bulletin #10012702. Checked operation with a Blu-Ray player and a 1080p TV monitor.

- - - - -{in regards to a TX-sr606 with handshaking issues }



*top/bottom of daughterboard; TX-SR576 version
Attachment 174496



I'm taking the liberty of assuming C8602 should have read C8607 - as in the case of my version of board, I couldn't locate the former. Of the four listed above, two apply to mine. As it happens I had only replaced C8607('C8602'), tested;unchanged, then replaced two not listed(C8162+C278), tested;good! then finally replaced one listed + one not, testing;redundant. There should never be any regrets if a few extras get replaced IMO
.
*UPDATE; December 2011/aka 19 months later...Unit repaired with repurposed parts as described - powered 24/7 - still flawless (AFAIK running @1080P , non-HDCP, various audio formats*
*Please note that my contributions contain much speculation and therefore posts by others who own your specific model (search each page for it, ie "606") should supercede the former*
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post #16 of 860 Old 05-01-2010, 08:52 PM
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Good stuff CZ_the_DAY!

SEGA! was seriously injured, but the soul still BURNS!

Fixed my ONKYO HTS-6100\HTR667:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnHxThGxasQ
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post #17 of 860 Old 05-04-2010, 06:21 PM
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Thank you for contacting me, i will try as soon as my onkyo comes back from the repair shop.

They quoted me $449 on a message on my phone, guess they want to replace the board, i'm not going for that, can buy a brand new one for cheaper.

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post #18 of 860 Old 05-16-2010, 02:49 PM
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I tried the approach offered by CZ on my 606. I replaced all 10 100 uF Caps with 105 degree 10V components. My results are that I have OSD using 480P output and sound from both composite and component sources while displaying OSD. However, I have no video or audio from any sources HDMI/Component/Svideo/composite. When I remove OSD, the sound from the selected source (in the case of my component and composite sources) also stops leaving the black screen. I have also noticed that when cold, there is a great deal of cracking and popping in the audio that I can hear that seems to dissapate when warmed up.
I know many of these results are consistent with other posters. Just wanted to see if there was any feedback before I go about replacing the rest of the caps on the board haphazardly. Here are some shots of my board in case anyone was wondering what the 606 difference were.

Might also be worth noting that I am only using TV audio through HDMI, not speakers attached to receiver
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post #19 of 860 Old 05-16-2010, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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navtek; good to have your feedback! It's just unfortunate that there was no happy ending.
-Could you clarify what if any improvement this repair made
-Also, if possible, carefully measure the main supply to the board (5 wire ribbon*) both without and with a viable signal being output. Mine varies from 11 to 10+ Vdc respectively. I have been accepting these values because it has been behaving anyways. (*connector silkscreened as 'gnd/12v/gnd/12v/gnd')
-I can't tell from the pics if your new caps have polarity markings; are they installed PC ? (polarity correct :-)
PM me if you prefer

[ Updated! Our common experiences, as our units change temperature, really make me think there is a similar mechanism involved> Degenerative Capacitor Syndrome
As my posts are kept as fresh as possible (which would explain the incontinuities ;p ), we have learned that more parts are involved than in my case. It comes down to the luck of the draw. Under duress, some components outshine their life expectency and some fall short. Focus on what is under fire first (the underside of the board), replace; if all seems well then improve its living conditions from now on. ]
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post #20 of 860 Old 05-17-2010, 11:46 AM
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CZ,
First of all, thanks for your interest in this effort. I think if we can build up some data, most everyone will be able solve their problems with these boards.

1. As far as I can tell, there is no difference at all. All the symptoms are the same as before the repair was attempted. So, the good news is that I guess I did no harm. As I said before, I am able to display the OSD in 480P only and hear audio from the selected source (non HDMI only) in the background (with crackling and popping until warmed up). I haven't tried the canned air test but maybe this would be a good idea.

2. I will measure the power supply feeds tonight and post results. The only question I have on this is that I don't see how filtering issues will be determined using a DVM, wouldn't I need an O-scope to derive how much noise is on the DC signal? Of course, I don't have access to one so that presents its own issues.

3. I would expect the voltages to read 10-11 when under load so that seems like a good thing. If you have a blown IC, maybe that would read a full 12V open. Concur? Maybe that was what you were going for anyway

4. I couldn't really tell from the diagram you posted, but it seems that the 470 uF caps are in LC networks with the 470 inductors which I would think would handle the AC filtering aspect. Maybe I'm way off here. Just thinking out loud. In any case I have measured the coils and they seem to be good. Perhaps this could rule out the transformer.

Anyway, I'll carefully check the power input (five wire cable) and report back this evening.

PS: My caps did not have Polarity indicators on the leads so hopefully that means there was no difference. However, there were different lead lengths on the components.
I could not determine the polarities of the sockets, maybe you could enlighten me? Thanks again!
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post #21 of 860 Old 05-17-2010, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navtek View Post

CZ,
...I don't see how filtering issues will be determined using a DVM, wouldn't I need an O-scope....

Absolutely, would prefer to scope this but if DC was lower than expected, we might suffer unpredictable operation.
Quote:


...If you have a blown IC, maybe that would read a full 12V open. Concur? Maybe that was what you were going for anyway...

I was going for excessive leakage via caps/chips/etc pulling down the 12v. We'd need to be sure it's healthy first.
Quote:


...it seems that the 470 uF caps are in LC networks with the 470 inductors which I would think would handle the AC filtering aspect...

Since the 3 DC-DC circuits operate at 300khz, there is great opportunity for introducing noise to the downstream regulators.
Quote:


....there were different lead lengths on the components. I could not determine the polarities of the sockets, maybe you could enlighten me?...

After looking at my new caps; +++=long lead. The board's printed cap outlines will have a bevelled end; that is +++. At the moment I dont know what effect using a non-polarized cap has. Try and sort this aspect out before proceeding. (crossing fingers + drinking beer for luck)

I am happy to assist anyone willing to further this effort...
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post #22 of 860 Old 05-17-2010, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ_the_DAY View Post

Absolutely, would prefer to scope this but if DC was lower than expected, we might suffer unpredictable operation.

I was going for excessive leakage via caps/chips/etc pulling down the 12v. We'd need to be sure it's healthy first.

Since the 3 DC-DC circuits operate at 300khz, there is great opportunity for introducing noise to the downstream regulators.

After looking at my new caps; +++=long lead. The printed cap outline will have a bevelled end; that is +++. At the moment I dont know what effect using a non-polarized cap has. Try and sort this aspect out before proceeding. (my fingers are crossed)

I will likely edit this later, too rushed! But I am happy to assist anyone willing to further this effort...

OK, test results from voltage across the 5 wire connector.

In standby, both + leads measure .67 volts.
Power on, no display both + leads measure 12.45 V.
Power on, OSD in 480P on screen, + leads measure 12.46 V.

very consistent eh?


One more observation, I used the ground connector on the side of the board to measure GND. BTW, the 5V test point measured 3.9 which thought was kind of low for TTL. But maybe this is normal.
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post #23 of 860 Old 05-18-2010, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navtek View Post

OK, test results from voltage across the 5 wire connector.
In standby, both + leads measure .67 volts.
Power on, no display both + leads measure 12.45 V.
Power on, OSD in 480P on screen, + leads measure 12.46 V.....5V test point measured 3.9 which thought was kind of low for TTL. But maybe this is normal.

You have 2 ( leftmost edge ) of the 5 primary ICs 'active' while the AVR is performing that function - and not fully either - whereas my scenario below uses 4 briskly.
My results referenced to ground plane near power connector;
STANDBY @ 12vIN=.56v
No HDMI active @ 12vIN=11.4v
1080p HDMI IN/OUT w/LPCM audio @ 12vIN=10.4v
< I don't have 5v to compare :-( ....but yours seems sub-par; unfortunately I couldn't find where '5v' originates from on the first attempt but note that its part of an unmarked 4 pin connector next to HDMI out (significant?, documented?, dunno) >
Seeing your voltages has me questioning my supply. It has just a bridge rectifier and 10,000uF cap, but does feed areas besides the HDMI board.

I was curious as to the source of the new caps ? Any more info on their type or orientation board-wise ?
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post #24 of 860 Old 05-18-2010, 02:56 PM
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the test point area you mentioned, I believe will work. That is where I measured mine. I would be curious to see what yours is especially since your overall voltages are lower.

Is there a stripe on your caps? since my leads have been cut, I can no longer use that as a guide. I think we are moving in the right direction. Thanks!
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post #25 of 860 Old 05-19-2010, 12:17 AM - Thread Starter
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navtek, the 576 is stripped of the functions in that corner of the board, hence the lack of testing on my part.

I read that some capacitors are marked only by lead length. If those were non-polarized aka bipolar, they should be inherently larger than same spec polars or at least have an 'NP' marking. Perhaps the printing on each cap is the 'stripe'(?) If you cannot locate a datasheet from the supplier, then the only recourse might be to remove one and try to measure DC leakage in both directions. The test need not be destructive; the in circuit exposure could be eventually :-(

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R . . . . C . . . . . .
5 to 7V Pos > -----/\\/\\/\\/----] [-------- < Neg
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .1k-ohm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Apply DC only long enough to measure steady voltage across R and if lower (near zero) in one direction, assume cap good and prefers that orientation. No difference would indicate bipolar or failed.

Hope remains!

[I'm tempted to remove this soon...way too specific to your predicament]
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post #26 of 860 Old 05-19-2010, 05:21 PM
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OK, I've verified that the stripe on my caps means -. As it turns out, I had two installed reverse polarity. Shame on me! So, although I might need to replace them anyway, I went ahead and reinstalled correctly, just to test.

Two things.

1. Some improvement! In the "through" setting under hardware settings on the OSD, I am able to fairly consistently get component and composite video over HDMI. TV says it is coming in at 480i. Image quality appears stable.

2. After a considerable amount of warmup time, audio for component and composite also kicks in. These are preceded with a long period of silence...crackling...stuttering audio...solid audio.

OK, now the real question, why is the temperature factor so huge? A TTL logic board operating with 5V and 12V doesn't generate much heat on its own. Could it be that we are looking in the wrong place entirely? What if the real problem lies in a faulty power supply sending very dirty voltages that caps are struggling to filter and possibly blowing HDMI boards. This would explain the repeat failures of some users and the temperature operational differences. Just trying to think big picture! Thoughts?
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post #27 of 860 Old 05-19-2010, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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(Heh, I was just checking for an update)
I may have underestimated the amount of variables (flaws if you may) that any give ONKYO might be stricken with.

To sum up the temperature issue; the ICs seem to become more (or less - refer to end of "PART 2") tolerant to noise with heat. The individual regs may also improve with heat.

There must be a deficiency in one or more replaced caps if you experienced an improvement; not to say there isn't more noise to filter - as you suspect.

My complete turnaround on my first attempt (10 buck investment) may have been a best-case-scenario in which I am leading most to false expectations. But if one simply makes the same mistake by replacing the same board into the same 'oven', history will repeat itself. (refer to beginning of PART 2)

If you truly duplicated my repair (granted, more caps) without any 'complications' we would focus forward - perhaps on those 470uFs - otherwise the tiny decoupling caps serving the two leftmost chips (the analog to HDMI path, AFAIK). Oh, for the opportunity to scope, eh?

Won't produce heat? My 'TTL' 4 core AMD CPU runs on 1.3 volts but has a huge heatsink! Although 3.5Ghz vs <1Ghz makes a big difference. Food for thought

I must consider a 'what next' now.....add visual aids as well
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post #28 of 860 Old 05-19-2010, 06:36 PM
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Okay, I couldn't let your last comment slide Wouldn't the amount of heat that your PC's video card produces be more comparable than the CPU? Besides, you know what I am trying to say

One more thing I noticed. When I switched to HDMI and gave it a couple of minutes to test and see if it would sync, I switched back to my component and composite sources and noticed that the sound went back to crackling for a couple of minutes before sound finally kicked back in clearly. Hmmmm.... When switching, I noticed relays engaging/disengaging which I assume is to apply power to a different part of the receiver. Could this account for the delayed restoration of sound?

But ultimately, I agree. I really want an Oscope.
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post #29 of 860 Old 05-23-2010, 10:11 AM
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Hey CZ_....

What about replacing whole hdmi board? I replaced power board on one of my plasma displays once with good succes....
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post #30 of 860 Old 05-24-2010, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medmike View Post

Hey CZ_....

What about replacing whole hdmi board? I replaced power board on one of my plasma displays once with good succes....

All the 'talk' has these boards costing $250 or more which in my case is over 75% of original purchase. Thanks for your input just the same.
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