Receiver Capable of Handling 4 Ohms - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I am still rather new to the Home Theater scene, and I may have finally settled on speakers, but discovered they run at 4 Ohms (thanks to AVSForums - learning a lot - thanks).

I am/was leaning towards the Yamaha RX-V765 for my receiver, but is the 765 capable of handling a speaker(s) (L/R/C) at 4 Ohms? I checked the specs and could not find the Ohms rating (remember, I am new the game)???

What receivers are capable to handle a 4 Ohms speaker(s), in the <$600 range? Are there any?

If a receiver can handle 4 Ohms, does that mean it can still handle 8 Ohms?

Thanks in advance...
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post #2 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 07:21 AM
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THX labelled AVRs can do it. For < $600 you have to look at the refurbished/used market. Onkyo 805 is a THX AVR and I believe you can find it for under $600 online.

If an AVR handles 4 ohms then it definitely handles 8 ohms. You should be aware that the impedance value isnt just a specific value, its actually a curve and speakers can have 4 ohm impedance at one frequency and 10 ohms at another frequency.

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post #3 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 07:24 AM
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very few receivers I have seen are specifically rated for 4 ohms. Some people have used 4 ohm speakers with receivers successfully.

If it's only the front 3 speakers, that helps.

At moderate volumes, my guess is the 765 will run ok with 4 ohm speakers. At high volumes it could overheat and it's internal protection would then hopefully kick in and shut it down.

When you use 4 ohm speakers, more current will flow. You need to ensure plenty of air space for ventilation.

8 ohms is easier to drive than 4 ohms, so no worries there.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #4 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 07:25 AM
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If a receiver can handle 4 ohms it will handle 8 ohm speakers easily. The 4 ohm speakers are much harder to drive than 8 ohms. What speakers are these? Also how large an area are you putting this setup in? I would think that the 765 could handle 4 ohms, but I would look at something else as Yamah did drop their specs on this years offerings. If you look at their website and pull up the specs for this AVR it will give you the ratings for this receivers capabilities. Also there may be a full test report on it at Audioholics.com. Check out that site and see if there is. I would look for something that has a THX certification. The Onkyo 707/807 have these and should drive 4 ohms okay. The Denon don't have the certification but do usually come close to their specs. H/K is also known for either meeting their specs and in some cases surpassing them. Good luck and hope this helps in some way. Also give the Pioneer Elites a look. The 21/23 will have THX certification also.
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post #5 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the input so far.

The speakers in question are:

Martin Logan Encore TF (L/R/C) - the 4 Ohms issue...
Jamo Concert Series Surrounds (C400SUR)
Sub - not identified yet

The space is approx. 15'x15' open floor plan/vaulted ceiling (not an ideal acoustical situation).

(The receiver I really wanted was the Pioneer 9040 - but I can not find it anywhere (discontinued?). The 9040 was THX certified, so it would have handled the Encores; based upon the responses here.)

I was hoping to stay low dollar on my receiver to have better speakers, but if I chose the Encores, that theory may be shot to H E double hockey sticks.
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post #6 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:00 AM
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would you consider a separate amp to power those ML Encores properly?

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post #7 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean View Post

Thanks for all the input so far.

The speakers in question are:

Martin Logan Encore TF (L/R/C) - the 4 Ohms issue...
Jamo Concert Series Surrounds (C400SUR)
Sub - not identified yet

The space is approx. 15'x15' open floor plan/vaulted ceiling (not an ideal acoustical situation).

(The receiver I really wanted was the Pioneer 9040 - but I can not find it anywhere (discontinued?). The 9040 was THX certified, so it would have handled the Encores; based upon the responses here.)

I was hoping to stay low dollar on my receiver to have better speakers, but if I chose the Encores, that theory may be shot to H E double hockey sticks.

Get the speakers you want. You'll be unhappy for settling for something less in the long run. Step down on your receiver to one that has preouts (665) and then save for an Emotiva upa5/7 or even an XPA3/5. Let the AVR do the surround work. The fronts are by far the most important part of the setup. Nice choice on the speakers. Keep and build from there. Go to Emotiva website and check out the above mentioned amps and see if any are on sale now. Any of them should drive those speakers IMO.
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post #8 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

would you consider a separate amp to power those ML Encores properly?

This is were my ignorance steps in... I would love to, but how would it work/set-up?

- Could I down-grade the receiver if I get an separate amp?
- I haven't researched amps, what does a decent (clean?) amp run $-wise?
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post #9 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean View Post

I am still rather new to the Home Theater scene, and I may have finally settled on speakers, but discovered they run at 4 Ohms (thanks to AVSForums - learning a lot - thanks).

I am/was leaning towards the Yamaha RX-V765 for my receiver, but is the 765 capable of handling a speaker(s) (L/R/C) at 4 Ohms? I checked the specs and could not find the Ohms rating (remember, I am new the game)???

What receivers are capable to handle a 4 Ohms speaker(s), in the <$600 range? Are there any?

If a receiver can handle 4 Ohms, does that mean it can still handle 8 Ohms?

Thanks in advance...

For $80 over your budget you could look at an Onkyo TX-SR707. Onkyo certifies it for 4 ohm performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

THX labelled AVRs can do it.

I know that is or used to be part of the spec. But.....the Onkyo 608, which is THX Select 2 certified doesn't appear to be rated for 4 ohm operation. On this page you'll see that "4 ohm performance" is not checked and here the speaker impedance is listed as 6 to 16 ohms.
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post #10 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean View Post

This is were my ignorance steps in... I would love to, but how would it work/set-up?

- Could I down-grade the receiver if I get an separate amp?
- I haven't researched amps, what does a decent (clean?) amp run $-wise?

The amp would connect to the pre-outs on your receiver and then you would connect your speakers to the amp. Really simple to do. That's why I suggested the Yamaha 665 and an Emotiva amp. The 665/765 doesn't have enough power to drive the speakers of your choice like they need. The AVR + amp combo would do it easliy. Check out the link below to get an idea on the price of highly recommended amps from Emotiva.

http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm


Also look at the prices for the UPA series there.
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post #11 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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How do the channels work on an Amp - Mono, 2, 3, 5, etc. channel...?

Those may be great amps, but that added cost would kill my budget... Any less expensive lines out there - or - discontinued models?
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post #12 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:


Step down on your receiver to one that has preouts (665) and then save for an Emotiva upa5/7 or even an XPA3/5

The 765 actually cost less than the 665 when discounted on Saturday's at Newegg.com.

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post #13 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:46 AM
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Then do as suggested by someone else and look at the Onkyo 707 for now. Later if you feel you need more power still, then consider adding amps. The 707 should power those speakers okay. But I still say if those are the speakers you want, get them, they are the most important part of your system. The 707 is a very good AVR for the money. Check them out at Newegg. There are also refurbs at accessories4less you should consider. The 876 is there and I know it will power those speakers easily.
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post #14 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 08:56 AM
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post #15 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:04 AM
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Yamaha AVRs run very cool to start with - so long as you don't block the ventilation, they will work fine.

Denons, on the other hand, run very hot to start with and I wouldn't push them.

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post #16 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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The 707 is actually on my short list, I am just concerned about how hot they get - may or may not be a bad thing?

I was in a high-end audio shop yesterday, they pushed Integra - the Lexus of Onkyo's Toyota (so I am told). I felt the Integra and if I were to keep it there for longer than 5-8 second I would have be burnt. The rep basically said "so, that is fine, it has been on all day" in response to the heat. He basically said bigger power source, more power, more heat...?

I wonder does Newegg discount the 707 on Saturdays?
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post #17 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Yamaha AVRs run very cool to start with - so long as you don't block the ventilation, they will work fine.

Denons, on the other hand, run very hot to start with and I wouldn't push them.

Are you saying heat is the issue with running 4 Ohms?
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post #18 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Yamaha AVRs run very cool to start with - so long as you don't block the ventilation, they will work fine.

Denons, on the other hand, run very hot to start with and I wouldn't push them.

Not to go off topic here, but what Yamaha are you using that runs cool. I've used many Yamaha with plenty of ventilation and they all ran pretty damn warm to even hot. The Yamaha 2600 I replaced with the Onkyo 876 ran a lot hotter than the the 876 is running and Onkyo's have a history of running hot. Just a question and not a dispute by any means.
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post #19 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

For $80 over your budget you could look at an Onkyo TX-SR707. Onkyo certifies it for 4 ohm performance.



I know that is or used to be part of the spec. But.....the Onkyo 608, which is THX Select 2 certified doesn't appear to be rated for 4 ohm operation. On this page you'll see that "4 ohm performance" is not checked and here the speaker impedance is listed as 6 to 16 ohms.

thx,
I guess that is the Select 2 certification...I honestly don't follow THX that well, I did think it was 4 ohm certified at one time. Oh well.

707 would be beefy enough for him. I still think something like the 805 offers maybe more at a lower cost (if he can find one).

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post #20 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean View Post

Are you saying heat is the issue with running 4 Ohms?

Yes.

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post #21 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean View Post

This is were my ignorance steps in... I would love to, but how would it work/set-up?

- Could I down-grade the receiver if I get an separate amp?
- I haven't researched amps, what does a decent (clean?) amp run $-wise?

This depends on what you want.

Pro amps are higher powered, low cost choices but they are a little uglier so you are not going to have an audiophile look if you like to look at gear.

You can then not worry about your mains and get a lower cost AVR like the Yahama series that has pre-outs to connect to separate amps.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #22 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

what Yamaha are you using that runs cool.

The entire RX-Vx6x series which has been referenced in this thread runs almost cold to the touch and runs 4-ohm speakers without issue.

Note: leave the AVR switch at 8-ohms or else you reduce the available output power.

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post #23 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean View Post

The 707 is actually on my short list, I am just concerned about how hot they get - may or may not be a bad thing?

I was in a high-end audio shop yesterday, they pushed Integra - the Lexus of Onkyo's Toyota (so I am told). I felt the Integra and if I were to keep it there for longer than 5-8 second I would have be burnt. The rep basically said "so, that is fine, it has been on all day" in response to the heat. He basically said bigger power source, more power, more heat...?

I wonder does Newegg discount the 707 on Saturdays?

There's a lot that goes into the amount of heat a receiver generates. I will list the ones I think are important, but I should mention I am not an engineer -

* High power ICs; CPUs, DSPs, Video processors, etc. all generate heat - I suspect this is why receivers have gotten so hot, because of all the ICs being added for new features
* Bias; The output transistors can be biased in class A to varying degrees. This increases radiated heat as far as I know
* Transformer; A lot of current can flow through a transformer, this will generate heat
* Power transistors; Regardless of bias, these will convert a certain amount of electrical energy into heat; 7.1 receivers have at least 7 of these.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #24 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:19 AM
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MaxJean, you just posted in the speaker forum and I just clued into the fact that you have not purchased the MLs.

If $$$ are an issue maybe you should consider front speakers that are easier to drive?

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post #25 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:27 AM
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The Onkyo 703 and the 707 will not drive vintage nominal 4 ohm Infinities to moderately high levels (100 db peaks on orchestral music) without shutting down. Using the 4 ohm setting on the 703 reduces output by ~ 6 db and it will still go into protect mode if driven hard. It depends on how far below 4 ohms the speaker drops and how flat the impedance curve is.

I have not tried the 4 ohm setting on the 707.
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post #26 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

The entire RX-Vx6x series which has been referenced in this thread runs almost cold to the touch and runs 4-ohm speakers without issue.

Note: leave the AVR switch at 8-ohms or else you reduce the available output power.

Thank you good to know. Also look at this years offerings from Yamaha as compared to previous models. There seems to have been a pretty big drop in amps,power supply, and to me quality build that Yamaha was known for. What are they making now that compares to the 1900/3900 or even the 863? Maybe the 1065/2065 will but again to me the build quality is not there. I'm a huge Yamaha AVR fan and usually recommended them first, but not this year. Glad to hear the x65 series do run cooler though.
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post #27 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:43 AM
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Onecall.com has the TX-SR707 under your budget, you can probably even offer a tiny bit less with their "my price" option.
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post #28 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

MaxJean, you just posted in the speaker forum and I just clued into the fact that you have not purchased the MLs.

If $$$ are an issue maybe you should consider front speakers that are easier to drive?

You are correct, I have not purchased them (yet), but I have an itchy trigger finger and will most likely purchase them this week - based solely on recommendation/reputation, and value for quality. I know whatever I get will sound different to what I have now, especially since I do not currently run a sub; I have accepted that. (Current 5.0 set-up: Yamaha RX-V590, Klipsch KM-6, KMC, KG.5) That said, I can still be swayed, but sleep on the 5.0 system described above, and like it more today, so I am close to pulling the trigger (plus, I don't want to miss the sales).

I am seeking speaker suggestions in the speaker forum; that is how I found out about the ML Encores and Jamo surrounds.

I also, requested receiver suggestions in this forum (upgrade/down-grade thread), but it didn't generate much interest in terms of feedback/posts.
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post #29 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

This depends on what you want.

Pro amps are higher powered, low cost choices but they are a little uglier so you are not going to have an audiophile look if you like to look at gear.

You can then not worry about your mains and get a lower cost AVR like the Yahama series that has pre-outs to connect to separate amps.

With an amp <$150ish, I can probably swing it with the better half. Thanks for the info... Have to sleep on the amp idea - looks are not that important to me at this point.
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post #30 of 97 Old 04-29-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccaliban View Post

The Onkyo 703 and the 707 will not drive vintage nominal 4 ohm Infinities to moderately high levels (100 db peaks on orchestral music) without shutting down. Using the 4 ohm setting on the 703 reduces output by ~ 6 db and it will still go into protect mode if driven hard. It depends on how far below 4 ohms the speaker drops and how flat the impedance curve is.

I have not tried the 4 ohm setting on the 707.

While the impedance is a factor, the sensitivity (efficiency) of the speaker is the largest factor in getting adequate SPLs.

What is the sensitivity of your Infinitys?
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