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AVR Sound Comparison

15K views 167 replies 31 participants last post by  maxjean 
#1 ·
I am very surprised I was actually able to here a difference between the following receivers:


Yamaha RX-V765

Onkyo TX-SR707

Pioneer VSX-21TXH


I visited a Magnolia studio and listened to the above AVRs with the same speakers and exact scene (fight scene) in Gladiators - then some music. I started with the 707, sounded good; and then tried the 765. The cling of the swords drastically reduced with the 765. The distinct cling came back with the 21, and it seemed to have more surround sound.


Is the cling of the sword being very distinct on the 707 & 21 mean they are bright receivers (trying to get a grasp of that term - bright)?


The 765 almost seemed muffled compared to the 707 & 21. This is actually consistent with my current Yamaha (RX-V590). That said, when I listen to the music, I started with the 765, then the 707, then the 21 - each AVR change resulted in a cleaner sound. The 21 sounded the best with the movie & music - in my opinion. The 707 wasn't far behind, but I was actually disappointed with the 765, in comparison.


Another point of worth noting, my better half did not like the heat produced by the 707 and actually said she didn't want to get the 707 because of that (the 707 has gravitated to the top of my short list, previous holder of this spot was the Pioneer VSX-9040TXH, but I am a few months too late). Heat-wise the 707 was hands down the winner (hottest), followed by the 21, and then the 765 (coolest).


Those who have followed my story, both in the speaker and AVR forum, I am still torn between a beefy AVR or a decent AVR with an external amp (running 4 ohms-ed L/R/C). I believe the 707 and the 21 (or 9040) would handle the load, but wife is currently against the Onkyo
, so leaning towards Pioneer.


Do all receivers in the same line sound the same, i.e. a Yamaha sounds like a Yamaha at $300 or $800?


What would be a good pairing of AVR (at least 4 HDMI inputs) & external amp in the
 
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#127 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean /forum/post/18589097


Well, I am not agonizing, I am researching
. And scientifically, there are very few AVRs that can run these speakers, just check the specs.



Sure, many people say most AVRs will run 4ohms speakers no problem; but, I have yet to see scientific evidence that the run-of-the-mill AVR can effectively run a 4ohms speaker, let alone 3 of them at the same time
to the speakers recommended specification.


If I am wrong, please show me the AVRs that are rated to run 4 ohms speakers. Please include the link to the specs when posting an AVR; "I run five 4 ohms speakers with 'AVR' no problem" will not suffice.


(The 707 is 4ohms certified - the only one that falls into my budget, I think. Any others?)

Hey, I agree with you. I never said and don't belive that any AVR can runn 4ohm sepeakers.
 
#128 ·
There is no doubt in my mind that those speakers need separate amps. Hence why I think they are not a good purchase. Also based on their designs they power hungry distortion monsters when it comes to higher HT dynamics. (again Im sorry if this is causing you greif). Electrostats or similar are not remotely the best choices for HT.
 
#129 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean /forum/post/18589097


Well, I am not agonizing, I am researching
. And scientifically, there are very few AVRs that can run these speakers, just check the specs.



Sure, many people say most AVRs will run 4ohms speakers no problem; but, I have yet to see scientific evidence that the run-of-the-mill AVR can effectively run a 4ohms speaker, let alone 3 of them at the same time
to the speakers recommended specification.


If I am wrong, please show me the AVRs that are rated to run 4 ohms speakers. Please include the link to the specs when posting an AVR; "I run five 4 ohms speakers with 'AVR' no problem" will not suffice.


(The 707 is 4ohms certified - the only one that falls into my budget, I think. Any others?)

An Onkyo 805 could do it. An Onkyo 876 can do it(accessories4less, but still more).


http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?class=Receiver&m=TX-SR805


http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=i



Test review for 805:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html
 
#130 ·
Penn,

I agree. No reason to say sorry
 
#131 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18589009


That's right, sorry I forgot about your thread in the speaker forum.


Those speakers definitely need a separate amp. Not a great HT choice but you love their sound so its your purchase (unless you can take them back?
)


I would recommend the Emotiva XPA-3 (it has enough power to drive them properly and its one of the best low cost choices outside of pro amps which are the best choices for pure power!!) and then find a low cost, high performance 2 year old AVR that has pre-outs (ie...Onkyo 805 or Denon 2809). I suggest 2 years old because you still get the latest HD formats and you save money. There is zero reason to buy a 2010 AVR over a 2008 AVR unless you want the High and Wide Dolby matrixing (PLIIz).



The AVR can power your surrounds (assuming they are normal designs that do not need HUGE watts and do not have low impedance curves).


Maxjean, I agree with most of this advice, my only alternate thought is that it may be hard to get a two year old model new, and you may be reluctant to get a factory reconditioned model. But some models are older releases and haven't been replaced yet.


I didn't realize you were looking for a 3 channel. I have the Emotiva model as well, and once you run the room correction program in the receiver everything would balance out for the most part. As long as you don't run your system into clipping you will be fine. The UPA-5 might still be an alternative over the XPA-3, as 185 watt peaks at 4 ohms will give you extremely loud performance.


I don't know if you've gotten any advice on subs yet, but two highly regarded brands around here are SVS and HSU subs. These are both internet direct, as is Emotiva, and you get more for your money over a traditional store.


BTW, speakers that are rated at 92 db, or decibels, achieve that volume level at 1 watt. It takes a fair amount of volume just to get up to one watt output per channel. To get 3 more decibels of volume, the speakers need double the wattage. The 125 watts of the UPA-5 will give you 21 more decibels over the 92, for a total of 113 decibels. I doubt you'll want it much louder than that, your wife will want to leave the room!
 
#132 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover /forum/post/18589131


notwithstanding your cute analogy above. I have stated in the past that I have 10K for anybody, including you, that believes they can pick out different AVR's in a controlled test. If you or anybody "really" believes what you are posting I am baffled as to why not a single soul has ever taken my money. If the differences are "clear" "factual" "huge" "any idiot can hear the difference" and the myriad other descriptive phrases to hammer home their points, then why not make a little easy money.
Most have seen this but in case you have not:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm


Just one example. I have access to an ABX box and it is an eye opening experience once one uses one. I used to be passionate about speaker burn in, better cables, different sounding DACS, amplifiers that add bass or treble, jitter, THD then I learned through DBT's and ABX that most all of those beliefs where just not valid. I also used to believe in the Easter bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and monsters, then I grew up.


It takes courage to turn away from the pack. It's just so damn comfortable surrounded by a group that all believes the same. It may appear, by this site, that most don't believe in the subjectivity of audio, but the vast majority are with you. There's comfort in that, right?

I stated my argument either for or against your argument (I generally do not follow what individuals say what in the threads, just what is said).


I do believe no two people hear the same thing (for whatever reason), and to me, that kind of makes the 'someone hearing the difference between receivers' argument mute to me.


What I am striving for is a speaker being powered appropriately, to get the true desired sound from the speaker.
 
#133 ·

Quote:
BTW, speakers that are rated at 92 db, or decibels, achieve that volume level at 1 watt. It takes a fair amount of volume just to get up to one watt output per channel. To get 3 more decibels of volume, the speakers need double the wattage. The 125 watts of the UPA-5 will give you 21 more decibels over the 92, for a total of 113 decibels. I doubt you'll want it much louder than that, your wife will want to leave the room!

runnin' good points but those dB levels will drop if the listening distance is longer.


How far back will he sit?


Movies can have > 20dB peaks so we are not listening at 90dBs we are listening at 80dB and want to make sure we do not clip the amp or have speaker distortion during the > 20dB peak.


I always use the 1/100th value when deciding on amps. I figure out what Watts I need for my average dB levels then I multiply by 100 to get the power I need. If I need only 1 Watt for average listening then i need a 100Watt/ch amp.
 
#134 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18589347


runnin' good points but those dB levels will drop if the listening distance is longer.


How far back will he sit?


Movies can have > 20dB peaks so we are not listening at 90dBs we are listening at 80dB and want to make sure we do not clip the amp or have speaker distortion during the > 20dB peak.


I always use the 1/100th value when deciding on amps. I figure out what Watts I need for my average dB levels then I multiply by 100 to get the power I need. If I need only 1 Watt for average listening then i need a 100Watt/ch amp.

That's true penngray, and I also didn't account for three front speakers putting out 92 decibels as I am not familiar with the math!
 
#135 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 /forum/post/18588404


Case in point (of course y'all will bash the hell out of me because I have not posted a link to my findings
) when I bought my Denon AVR-789 and brought it home, connected and calibrated everything to the same specs as my Onkyo TX-DS595, and the Denon sounded differently (better) with the same speakers, using the same demo material passage, in the same room (my "controlled environment"). I heard the difference, my wife heard the difference (and she was in a different room while this was going on) and all because THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE. A difference that was HEARD and not measured.

No one is going to "bash" you, I don't think, but those those kinds of comments are (again) anecdotal and not particularly persuasive, especially against the weight of evidence that we know to be true.


On the other hand, if you used automatic equalization and calibration, then it would be perfectly reasonable to suspect that your resulting response curves might have been different, which is certainly going to result in a difference in tonal balance, which is easy to hear and measure. This is what tone controls do, after all. But the idea that receivers like that Denon and the Onkyo (which invariably measure the same) "sound different" is wholly unsupported by any evidence I've ever seen. (There's also the form of placebo effect known as the "satisfaction period" -- people tend to find value in their "new stuff.")


Anyway, anecdotal evidence is never going to persuade anyone with an objective perspective.
 
#136 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' /forum/post/18589392


That's true penngray, and I also didn't account for three front speakers putting out 92 decibels as I am not familiar with the math!

Yeah, there is multiple speaker gain, room gain, variable drop in dBs.


Its actually hard to be entirely accurate so I would do the ballpark calcs since we have lots of room to be inaccurate with the Watt value because the difference between a 125Watt and a 250Watt amp is only 3dB anyways.
 
#137 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18589472


Yeah, there is multiple speaker gain, room gain, variable drop in dBs.


Its actually hard to be entirely accurate so I would do the ballpark calcs since we have lots of room to be inaccurate with the Watt value because the difference between a 125Watt and a 250Watt amp is only 3dB anyways.

Penn, what would be the difference when a Speaker drops to 4ohms and the 125w amp stays at 125w @ 4ohms, compared to the 250w amp that delivers 500w @ 4ohms?


Thanks
 
#138 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18589138


There is no doubt in my mind that those speakers need separate amps. Hence why I think they are not a good purchase. Also based on their designs they power hungry distortion monsters when it comes to higher HT dynamics. (again Im sorry if this is causing you greif). Electrostats or similar are not remotely the best choices for HT.

On paper, they're definitely less-than-ideal for HT and well designed dynamic loudspeakers/horns are better, but some "stats" work quite effectively in that application with sufficient power. Plus, if your HT space plays double-duty, they're really tough to beat for vocals/jazz/acoustical music.
 
#140 ·
OK, "Electrostats or similar are not remotely the best choices for HT."


I am a rookie, remember, I bought the Encores because they are a respected name and were a great deal.


Are they good centers? Like I mentioned, I replaced my Klipsch KMC with a Encore when I received them, and there was/is a noticeable improvement.


I have 30 days (less 7) to return, what speakers are better (yes, I know it is subjective)? I have been living with under-powered Klipsch speakers for a long time, with no sub. So, I think any speaker will be an improvement. My requirements are:


- must be wall mountable

- no small satellites (I compared satellites vs. the elongated ?? type)

- the width can not exceed 6.5 inches

- I guess the budget is approximately $199 per, as that is what I paid for the Encores (note: I justified that amount because they are MSRP $499, remember value for dollar - even if only perceived).
 
#141 ·
OK, if I stick with the Martin Logans for my L/C/R, I will go with an external amp. If I go with an external amp, I must reduce the budget for the AVR.


Here are my AVR requirements:

- HDMI inputs 4 minimum, either format

- good/better calibration (i.e. multi vs.2)

- compressed music enhancer

- volume control, so commercials don't blow your mind

- pre-outs for L/C/R

-
Do I need up conversion, if everything I send will be in HD via HDMI already?


What will be attached to the AVR:

- Cable Box

- DVD (normal)

- PS3 in the near future

- external amp


So, what is the lowest cost AVR that meets those requirements?


I researched for a long time last night and the Denon 591 comes very close (MSRP $349), but couldn't identify if it had pre-out, and it didn't have the compressed music enhancer - I think (read a lot last night).
 
#142 ·
Lowest cost with pre-outs would be the Yamaha 665/765. Uses YPAO for an Eq program. Better choice for what you want is still the Onkyo 707 IMO. Audyssey Multi-EQ for an Eq program. As for the Denon line it would have to be last years model the 2809CI. Though it may still be out of your budget. They may have refurbs of these at Dakmart. Check them out there.
 
#143 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjean /forum/post/18591036


OK, "Electrostats or similar are not remotely the best choices for HT."


I am a rookie, remember, I bought the Encores because they are a respected name and were a great deal.


Are they good centers? Like I mentioned, I replaced my Klipsch KMC with a Encore when I received them, and there was/is a noticeable improvement.


I have 30 days (less 7) to return, what speakers are better (yes, I know it is subjective)? I have been living with under-powered Klipsch speakers for a long time, with no sub. So, I think any speaker will be an improvement. My requirements are:


- must be wall mountable

- no small satellites (I compared satellites vs. the elongated ?? type)

- the width can not exceed 6.5 inches

- I guess the budget is approximately $199 per, as that is what I paid for the Encores (note: I justified that amount because they are MSRP $499, remember value for dollar - even if only perceived).

Take a breath. Slow down. Return the speakers. Then start over. First come up with a total budget. Once you get that budget, take the majority of it and look at speakers. Audition them if possible or research them if you perfer. Try to look for speakers easy to drive with high SPL numbers. There are quite a few and you already know the companies. Once you get your speakers squared away, then go looking for electronics. For example, If I had $2,000 to spend (arbitrary number) I'd be spending $1,500 of it on speakers and $500 on electronics. At $200 a pair it would appear that you are looking at spending $500-$800 on speakers (including sub) and then $1,000-$1,500 on electronics. For somebody searching for the best sound this is just backwards. IMO it makes no sense to have to blow that kind of money on electronics just to power hard to drive speakers that you "believe" you got a deal on. It's no deal if you have to invest twice as much just to drive them. Spend half as much on your AVR and get better, easier to drive, speakers. But this is just my opinion. There are a lot of threads around here with people looking for good 5.1 speaker selection for under $1,500. Read them. There are some really good choices for wall mounted, speaker packages in that range. Then get yourself one of the under $500 receivers from one of the many "get me a receiver for under $500" threads running, and you will be much better off than what you are doing now. I'd much rather have a set of $1,500 speakers with a $500 AVR than a set of $500 speakers with $1,500 of electronics.
 
#144 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover /forum/post/18592641


Take a breath. Slow down. Return the speakers. Then start over. First come up with a total budget. Once you get that budget, take the majority of it and look at speakers. Audition them if possible or research them if you perfer. Try to look for speakers easy to drive with high SPL numbers. There are quite a few and you already know the companies. Once you get your speakers squared away, then go looking for electronics. For example, If I had $2,000 to spend (arbitrary number) I'd be spending $1,500 of it on speakers and $500 on electronics. At $200 a pair it would appear that you are looking at spending $500-$800 on speakers (including sub) and then $1,000-$1,500 on electronics. For somebody searching for the best sound this is just backwards. IMO it makes no sense to have to blow that kind of money on electronics just to power hard to drive speakers that you "believe" you got a deal on. It's no deal if you have to invest twice as much just to drive them. Spend half as much on your AVR and get better, easier to drive, speakers. But this is just my opinion. There are a lot of threads around here with people looking for good 5.1 speaker selection for under $1,500. Read them. There are some really good choices for wall mounted, speaker packages in that range. Then get yourself one of the under $500 receivers from one of the many "get me a receiver for under $500" threads running, and you will be much better off than what you are doing now. I'd much rather have a set of $1,500 speakers with a $500 AVR than a set of $500 speakers with $1,500 of electronics.

You are correct, I just have to slap myself and follow a budget. My problem is I am a miser; I like the idea of finding a good deal and absolutely hate paying retail.


OK, let's say my budget is $800-$1000 for speakers (5.1), and
 
#145 ·
The problem with finding a great deal in the speaker world is that speaker value is a completely different beast. Value of a speaker is measured by how well it performs for you with all your requirements.


Hypothetical...... You can get speakers worth $3K for $500 but if they do not have specific design requirements (constant directivity, Clean high SPL, easy impedance curves etc). Then they really are not going to be the best value speaker compared to maybe another 2 speakers retailing for $500.
 
#149 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR /forum/post/18592909


Gents, Encore TF's are neither electrostats nor, looking at the photos, dipoles. They use a combination of Advanced Thin Film (ATF) and cone drivers.


Dunno whether the ATF drivers share the same current hungry attributes of ML electrostats.

Why didn't I say that??? Thanks...


Are you guys putting down the Encores based on an assumption
?


Here is the sales pitch from Martin Logan, on the Encore TF:

"High-Resolution Front (Left/Right), Center or Surround Speaker

Designed to serve as a high performance speaker for front left and right, center channel, or surround sound for home theaters, the compact Encore TF delivers exceptional detail. An Advanced Thin Film driver, long-excursion low-mass woofers, and sophisticated crossover engineering combine to produce sound with a lifelike clarity and openness. Encore TF delivers compelling audio reproduction whether mounted beneath a high definition flat screen or used with the included table top stand."


http://www.martinlogan.com/products/encoretf


"sophisticated crossover engineering" = 4 ohms????
 
#150 ·
Emotiva UPA5 $575 shipped. Onkyo 707 under $500(refurbed at accessories4less. Also check the the prices for the Yamaha 665/765 and the Onkyo 707 on Saturday at Newegg for their sales. If those are the speakers you want to keep, do it. Yes I also feel you should have spent more for your speakers and then gone from there. But sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. That's why I say keep your speakers if you love 'em and go from there. It may cost you more than you want to spend for the AVR and amp but it would be senseless in my opinion to buy something that won't power those speakers properly. So take your medicine and accept it. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
#151 ·
Max, you really should ask this question @ the ML Club forum http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/ since that's where all the owners hang out.


I did a quick search yesterday and found a couple of guys running Encores with Onkyo 807's and a guy using an old Sony AVR. Probably a lot more to be found and certainly plenty of good advice for the asking.


Been an ML owner for 21 years and loved every minute.



/Ken
 
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