*Official* Denon AVR-1911/791 & AVR-2311CI/891 Owner's Thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 02:54 AM
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Owlish,
Sorry am not following how chaining is a solution for mixing ARC with switching goals..What ever it takes Please,please clear me up!

With this basic chained configuration:

cable box ->TV->AVR<-BD player (tv HDMI-CEC enabled)
AVR switches from BD player input to ARC source material when BD is powered down because cable box is to be kept on? (which I prefure for dvr purposes). With cable box off I assume it would turn TV to it's tuner.
Now with TV's HDMI-CEC disabled I assume AVR can still hear cable audio via ARC and switch itself to it when the BD player is powered down but the receiver under this configuration has no video input from cable box to pass and it can't adjust TV's source neither cause that function has been turned off.. so I will have to manually switch TV's video source from AVR to cable regularly to go between BD and cable....If this is how it works then the technology be about useless..
With TVhdmi-CEC enabled will any AVR's switch TV's source to user defined selection.. aka-my hdmi HD cable?


What happens if I go Cable->AVR<-BD player with TvHdmi-CEC disabled? AVR stays on BD player?

...too confusing
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post #212 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Owlish is a smart dude if you followed the xx10 owner's threads we dealt with HDMI-CEC stupidity constantly. The "magical switching to the TV input" issue was brought up literally dozens of times; every single time the confused individual was saved by turning off HDMI-CEC in the TV.

Basically, I recommend ALWAYS turning off HDMI-CEC unless you have some specific reason to have it on -- it generally causes more harm than good. You are much better off getting a good universal remote to deal with the input switching for you and making your own decisions, not letting some stupid "default priority" input switching that the manufacturers decided for you. If you want to leave "HDMI-Control" enabled in the Denon so you can do the "standby passthrough" thing, and that works flawlessly, by all means go for it... but at the minimum turn that crap off in all your other devices!

HDMI-CEC... HDMI passthrough... ARC... it's all IMHO a bunch of gimmicky garbage that is best turned off and replaced with a couple of extra cables and a Harmony remote

I get all this but in my case, I fished and pre-wired and wall mounted my tv. Adding an optical cable is not easy. I replaced my Pioneer for the Denon partly for ARC and now I can't really use it.
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post #213 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by torontodude View Post

I get all this but in my case, I fished and pre-wired and wall mounted my tv. Adding an optical cable is not easy. I replaced my Pioneer for the Denon partly for ARC and now I can't really use it.

I've noticed no one has asked you this, but are you sure your TV can do ARC? I thought none of them have the capability yet.

Life is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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post #214 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by torontodude View Post


I get all this but in my case, I fished and pre-wired and wall mounted my tv. Adding an optical cable is not easy. I replaced my Pioneer for the Denon partly for ARC and now I can't really use it.

Let's assume your TV can do ARC. What do you actually need it for? There are 2 possible reasons - you watch something that originates at the TV (internal tuner or some network-connected stuff on new TVs), or you have something plugged into TV's HDMI inputs.

I am assuming it is the former, since for the latter it would be easy to just run cables straight into AVR.

If Denon does not allow "partial HDMI CEC" to have ARC without stupid switching, you are SOL. The only thing you can do is replace it with Onkyo 608. That one does.
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post #215 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like Vanns.com has the 1911 and the 2311 (along with the 3311) for preorder. I still don't see them at Best Buy.com (even in the Magnolia section).
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post #216 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm911 View Post

Owlish,
Sorry am not following how chaining is a solution for mixing ARC with switching goals..What ever it takes Please,please clear me up!

With this basic chained configuration:

cable box ->TV->AVR<-BD player (tv HDMI-CEC enabled)
AVR switches from BD player input to ARC source material when BD is powered down because cable box is to be kept on? (which I prefure for dvr purposes). With cable box off I assume it would turn TV to it's tuner.

It will switch to TV's tuner regardless of cable box status. If you don't have anything there, too bad. You can disable HDMI-CEC on BD to prevent that, but it will also prevent automatic switching to BD input when you start playback.

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Originally Posted by ktm911 View Post

Now with TV's HDMI-CEC disabled I assume AVR can still hear cable audio via ARC and switch itself to it when the BD player is powered down

No to ARC audio with HDMI-CEC disabled. The receiver will not switch either. Will stay where it was (BD input).

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Originally Posted by ktm911 View Post

but the receiver under this configuration has no video input from cable box to pass and it can't adjust TV's source neither cause that function has been turned off.. so I will have to manually switch TV's video source from AVR to cable regularly to go between BD and cable....

This configuration makes no sense to begin with. If you have HDMI-CEC off, you just connect all sourced into AVR and from there out to TV. You do all switching manually, but on the AVR. There is no need to switch TV's inputs, unless you want to watch TV's internal tuner.

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Originally Posted by ktm911 View Post

If this is how it works then the technology be about useless..
With TVhdmi-CEC enabled will any AVR's switch TV's source to user defined selection.. aka-my hdmi HD cable?

Onkyo and Samsung can assign HDMI port to "TV input". Maybe Denon can too, I don't know. Sony can't. Pioneer can, but only when HDMI-CEC is disabled.

You're generally right about how useful this feature is. If you watch broadcast TV and BD/DVD discs, it's good for you. If you have anything more, you're better off turning it off and using Harmony remote. Only thing you'd miss is volume indicator on TV, but that you can have from some AVRs via OSD.

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Originally Posted by ktm911 View Post

What happens if I go Cable->AVR<-BD player with TvHdmi-CEC disabled? AVR stays on BD player?

Yes.
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post #217 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 09:46 AM
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Thanx Owlish. Apparently it seems my confusion is due to not realizing that although the technology is in the AVR, BD player, and TV it is the individual components initiating and taking control of AVR rather than AVR making main decission on its own. If manufactures suggest such chaining as you mentioned how come they not make the components using such technology able to select a defined source of their own when it sees other components outside its chain trning off/on? Is it too much to ask that a TV sees the signal of a BD going off and switches the avr to ARC channel and turns it's own source to what I tell it to? To say it another way.. With the bd going off situation obviousely there is handshaking going on between avr and bd.. at this point does it become avr gains control and forces tv to turn to its tuner or does avr just pass things off for tv to decide? It's dumb without customizable overriding..They had better build something into these new tv's hdmi-cec technology such that when chained they pick at least one main user defined source. Prefurably they give me ordered list capability like a drop down menu to do it in. Cable to AVR seems logical for purpose of keeping the V in avr but so the avr's are too dumb to see basic signals coming from it such that it will switch to it without the cable box having the technology on board?..geez i must be dumb and missing the modern ages limitations. Ahh well.. I'll power on all components and run it all out throuigfh avr and use input selection on remote. Oh wait did I hear somethign about a machine not having input selection on the remote because of this dumb new switcing technology? yikes


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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm911
but the receiver under this configuration has no video input from cable box to pass and it can't adjust TV's source neither cause that function has been turned off.. so I will have to manually switch TV's video source from AVR to cable regularly to go between BD and cable....

This configuration makes no sense to begin with. If you have HDMI-CEC off, you just connect all sourced into AVR and from there out to TV. You do all switching manually, but on the AVR. There is no need to switch TV's inputs, unless you want to watch TV's internal tuner.

Again, with hdmi-cec off on tv I didn't realize BD or AVR has no power to make a switching decission to go to a user defined avr input source (ARC via the avr hdmi out cable) So back to square one with the technology being useles and manufactures making useless chaining suggestions. Best solution is as we're both saying: CABLE->AVR<-BD
Guess I should search out receivers with greater consideration given to it's remotes capabilities and ease of setting them up. I assume there are still receivers being offered with at least a couple reprogramable input buttons? I have an old Sansui receiver's learning remote floating around here somewheres. It was handy back in the day but at same time was retarded in having to post little labels on it so I knew what the buttons selected. They had a name for being able to tell a button to do a few different things back then back when that technology was new..haha
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post #218 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Onkyo and Samsung can assign HDMI port to "TV input". Maybe Denon can too, I don't know.

on Denons, you can assign an HDMI input to the "TV" name but ONLY if HDMI Control is turned OFF. When HDMI Control is on, the "TV" input is "locked in" at the default assignment (because it assumed you are using either s/pdif digital audio back out from the TV, or ARC). This is noted in the "Input Assign" section of the manual under HDMI (e.g. page 46 in the 1911 manual).

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
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post #219 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

on Denons, you can assign an HDMI input to the "TV" name but ONLY if HDMI Control is turned OFF. When HDMI Control is on, the "TV" input is "locked in" at the default assignment (because it assumed you are using either s/pdif digital audio back out from the TV, or ARC). This is noted in the "Input Assign" section of the manual under HDMI (e.g. page 46 in the 1911 manual).

This sounds like they saying avr would then indeed switch itself then to start playing my cable audio as desired but tv's too dumb to turn it's own source regardless of avr hdmi control being on?

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"at the default assignment"

Avr's default right? that usually the arc?...
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post #220 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 10:03 AM
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seriously, get a Harmony remote. the "automatic" input switching you desire will NEVER work correctly if you count on HDMI-CEC to do it for you. a good universal remote will be a million times more effective, trust me

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
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post #221 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

seriously, get a Harmony remote. the "automatic" input switching you desire will NEVER work correctly if you count on HDMI-CEC to do it for you. a good universal remote will be a million times more effective, trust me

You see that one on amazon the other day on sale for like $137?
ps- wow just looked and they got so many different remotes it's like picking an audio receiver!!
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post #222 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 10:54 AM
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they all do the same thing, and use the same software. The only differences between the remotes are:

1 - ergonomics / style
2 - regular batteries or rechargeable (USB or docking cradle)
3 - style of LCD screen
4 - max number of devices it can control

In the current lineup:

Harmony 300 = basic universal remote, regular batteries, no LCD screen, controls 4 devices max
Harmony 650 = regular batteries, 4-button LCD screen, controls 5 devices max
Harmony 700 = same as 650 but has rechargable batteries (via USB cable), and controls 6 devices max
Harmony One = color touchscreen, docking charge cradle, better build quality, controls up to 15 devices
Harmony 900 = same as Harmony One but with RF (in addition to IR)

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
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post #223 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 11:33 AM
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An older model, the rechargeable Harmony 880, is now @Costco for $89.


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post #224 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

on Denons, you can assign an HDMI input to the "TV" name but ONLY if HDMI Control is turned OFF. When HDMI Control is on, the "TV" input is "locked in" at the default assignment (because it assumed you are using either s/pdif digital audio back out from the TV, or ARC). This is noted in the "Input Assign" section of the manual under HDMI (e.g. page 46 in the 1911 manual).

Awesome. Just like Pioneer. It may have to do with both of the using ABT chips.
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post #225 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

on Denons, you can assign an HDMI input to the "TV" name but ONLY if HDMI Control is turned OFF. When HDMI Control is on, the "TV" input is "locked in" at the default assignment (because it assumed you are using either s/pdif digital audio back out from the TV, or ARC). This is noted in the "Input Assign" section of the manual under HDMI (e.g. page 46 in the 1911 manual).

That is the key piece of info I needed to complete the picture painted by owlish in post #210 (many thanks, owlish).

So if CEC is enabled on everything, and only the 1911 and TV are on, the Denon will switch to its Optical-1 ("TV") input for audio (if the TV doesn't support ARC) or the "return" audio via its HDMI connection to the TV (if the TV supports ARC). And the TV will switch to its internal tuner.

If you wanted to watch TV, the above would be OK if your cable-coax/cable-box/sat-box were connected to the TV. But if you had a cable/sat box connected via HDMI to the 1911 that's where CEC would need to be disabled on the Denon and TV.

Did I get that right?


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post #226 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owlish View Post

The behavior will be pretty retarded if you have all components from one vendor too.

The basic idea of HDMI-CEC is that user never ever should need to switch inputs manually.

- You turn TV on, receiver switches to some designated (by manufacturer) "TV input". Does not matter in what order you turn then - it will happen anyway, I have checked. If you turn TV first and receiver second, for the first few seconds you will actually get your last selected input, so you will see picture and sound, and then voila - you are suddenly on "TV input".
- You turn BD player on, receiver switches to designated BD input.
- You turn BD player off, the TV switches to the internal tuner. Yes, *internal* tuner, not some sat/cable box.

Why all of that nonsense? Of course, because sat/cable boxes don't do HDMI CEC, so they don't exist. It is meant for TVs, receivers and BD players. So if you're not watching BD player, you must be watching TV. From the internal tuner, naturally, since there's nothing else.

Logical isn't it? In the Universe where HDMI-CEC was conceived, that is.
Of course there are few good bits too. You can control your receiver's volume with TV remote. And receiver's volume level will show up on TV screen. And you can turn everything off with one button. And the ARC seems to be inexplicably linked to that too (I am guessing receiver does not want to assume TV is supplying ARC, so it needs HDMI CEC to find out). But to get the good bits, you have to live with the switching assumptions.

What manufacturers actually recommend is keeping HDMI-CEC devices on a separate HDMI chain (TV-AVR-BD), and plugging other devices directly into TV. The audio goes to the receiver through ARC (you can do optical too, but typically only stereo will be passed from HDMI inputs of TV to its SPDIF output, or you have to run optical directly from cable/sat/whatever directly to receiver and switch receiver inputs manually - that will give you DD5.1, but more switching involved, which may be ok with Harmony).

This way everything works as designed. HDMI-CEC devices will switch each other as they are meant to. And you can switch the rest of TV inputs manually. This sounds awkward, but that really is the only way to make HDMI-CEC work in general.

Thanks for making it clear that there is a paradigm HDMI-CEC assumes about how your home theater is connected.

I actually don't have a cable box. The cable TV coax goes directly into the back of my TV. So I fit the CEC paradigm and ARC will work for me.

To give users of cable/sat boxes more flexibility, it seems HDMI-CEC should be changed to provide a user-option in AVR's and TV's. That option would let the user choose where inputs will come from when CEC senses only the TV and AVR are on.

HDMI 1.5?


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post #227 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hydrogin View Post

That is the key piece of info I needed to complete the picture painted by owlish in post #210 (many thanks, owlish).

So if CEC is enabled on everything, and only the 1911 and TV are on, the Denon will switch to its Optical-1 ("TV") input for audio (if the TV doesn't support ARC) or the "return" audio via its HDMI connection to the TV (if the TV supports ARC). And the TV will switch to its internal tuner.

I suspect it will switch to TV input either way. And sounds like (just like on Pioneer) you can't make that input use HDMI port when HDMI CEC is enabled. The interesting question is whether it will pick ARC audio, or whatever TV input is set to. I would not be surprized if it ignored ARC, because AVR is not switched to a HDMI input.

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If you wanted to watch TV, the above would be OK if your cable-coax/cable-box/sat-box were connected to the TV. But if you had a cable/sat box connected via HDMI to the 1911 that's where CEC would need to be disabled on the Denon and TV.

Did I get that right?

Yes. If you used component cables, you could run them to the AVR as well, and assign them to the "TV input".

Bottom line, you can get AVR to switch to BD and TV inputs as you need automatically. What you can't do is prevent TV from switching to the internal tuner when BD goes off. Not without disabling HDMI-CEC somewhere.

What I'd like to know is whether any TV model allows to assign what input to switch to when HDMI-CEC tells it to.
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post #228 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 12:41 PM
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Thanks for making it clear that there is a paradigm HDMI-CEC assumes about how your home theater is connected.

I actually don't have a cable box. The cable TV coax goes directly into the back of my TV. So I fit the CEC paradigm and ARC will work for me.

To give users of cable/sat boxes more flexibility, it seems HDMI-CEC should be changed to provide a user-option in AVR's and TV's. That option would let the user choose where inputs will come from when CEC senses only the TV and AVR are on.

HDMI 1.5?

Lucky you, it will. It will also switch AVR back to TV input when BD player goes off (along with switching TV to its internal tuner).

You don't need HDMI 1.5 to make it more generic. You just need TV manufacturers to let users select "default input" for HDMI-CEC.

Reality is that this industry is doing very poor job of allowing interoperability and smooth integration. Gives life to whole market of custom installers.
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post #229 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owlish View Post

I suspect it will switch to TV input either way. And sounds like (just like on Pioneer) you can't make that input use HDMI port when HDMI CEC is enabled. The interesting question is whether it will pick ARC audio, or whatever TV input is set to. I would not be surprized if it ignored ARC, because AVR is not switched to a HDMI input.

In the latter scenario (Denon and ARC-compliant TV are both on with CEC enabled) are you assuming the optical out of the TV is connected to the Denon's TV input (which according to the manual is the optical-1 input) and wondering whether the optical audio or ARC audio would be selected?

Otherwise, if the optical connection weren't there, I would think the Denon must use the audio received via ARC's HDMI connection from the TV. That's the way ARC is supposed to work, right?


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post #230 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hydrogin View Post

In the latter scenario (Denon and ARC-compliant TV are both on with CEC enabled) are you assuming the optical out of the TV is connected to the Denon's TV input (which according to the manual is the optical-1 input) and wondering whether the optical audio or ARC audio would be selected?

On the contrary, I am not assuming anything. In particular, I am not assuming that AVR will "know" that it needs to take audio input from ARC. But you are

If i were you, I'd walk to a store and ask them to set this up to try.

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Otherwise, if the optical connection weren't there, I would think the Denon must use the audio received via ARC's HDMI connection from the TV. That's the way ARC is supposed to work, right?

It would be a logical thing to do, and I hope it does that. And maybe that's why ARC is tied up to HDMI-CEC. But I would not assume anything anymore, when it comes to HDMI-CEC. It might simply switch to "TV input" and take audio from whatever is connected to that input, regardless of ARC. After all it is switching to TV input, so it might try to be "consistent" and take both video and audio from the same source.

Then again, perhaps this is exactly the reason why they disallow assigning HDMI ports to TV input when HDMI-CEC is enabled. If they allowed that, it would put AVR into scenario where it can't be certain where your video signal is supposed to come from - on one hand you're switching to HDMI input, on another you have ARC coming in from TV, so which picture do you want to see? Disallowing HDMI assignment prevents this uncertainty for video. For audio it can then take ARC, and assume video is coming from TV itself.

I will try this, just to have complete understanding. Eventually it will all make sense
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post #231 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

.....


In the current lineup:

Harmony 300 = basic universal remote, regular batteries, no LCD screen, controls 4 devices max
Harmony 650 = regular batteries, 4-button LCD screen, controls 5 devices max
Harmony 700 = same as 650 but has rechargable batteries (via USB cable), and controls 6 devices max
Harmony One = color touchscreen, docking charge cradle, better build quality, controls up to 15 devices
Harmony 900 = same as Harmony One but with RF (in addition to IR)

since you've brought it up here -- do you have an opinion on the pluses and minuses of regular batteries vs. rechargeable in real world use? do regular batteries require frequent changing in these harmony remotes or is it like other remotes where they last a long time?

...i'm thinking the rechargeable is a nice idea, but in practice would be a pain to keep putting it in the cradle, making it a solution looking for a problem ...

thanks
bc

iirc afaik fwiw imo
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post #232 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 03:56 PM
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On the contrary, I am not assuming anything. In particular, I am not assuming that AVR will "know" that it needs to take audio input from ARC. But you are

I may not have worded that clearly. What I meant to ask was, when you made your statement, were you envisioning the situation where there is an optical cable connecting the TV's SPDIF output to the Denon's TV optical input at the same time the TV and Denon are connected via HDMI?

That seems to be an interesting scenario because with CEC enabled, there are two potential paths for audio to move from the TV to the AVR.

That said, I have a new Panasonic HDMI 1.4 plasma and will have to see if there's anything in the manual which addresses that scenario. Perhaps there's a setting which says which of the two audio out paths should be used when under CEC control.


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post #233 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hydrogin View Post

I may not have worded that clearly. What I meant to ask was, when you made your statement, were you envisioning the situation where there is an optical cable connecting the TV's SPDIF output to the Denon's TV optical input at the same time the TV and Denon are connected via HDMI?

That seems to be an interesting scenario because with CEC enabled, there are two potential paths for audio to move from the TV to the AVR.

That said, I have a new Panasonic HDMI 1.4 plasma and will have to see if there's anything in the manual which addresses that scenario. Perhaps there's a setting which says which of the two audio out paths should be used when under CEC control.

I was not envisioning that. Just pointing out that there are potentially many choices manufacturers can make there, and what seems most logical to you or me is not always what they do. Even without the optical cable in the picture, there are multiple potential choices.

But enough speculation. More experimentation is in order
Btw, since you got new Panasonic, I'd like to hear your experimental results too. For example, if you turn on TV, will that turn on AVR (with HDMI-CEC enabled on both ends)? Samsung TV will not send "on" command to AVR (by design). And obviously, look in the settings if there's any way to control what HDMI-CEC does with input switching there...
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post #234 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by owlish View Post

But enough speculation. More experimentation is in order
Btw, since you got new Panasonic, I'd like to hear your experimental results too. For example, if you turn on TV, will that turn on AVR (with HDMI-CEC enabled on both ends)? Samsung TV will not send "on" command to AVR (by design). And obviously, look in the settings if there's any way to control what HDMI-CEC does with input switching there...

I wish I could! My AVR is over 10 years old. That is why I'm here, looking for a new AVR


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post #235 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by hydrogin View Post

I may not have worded that clearly. What I meant to ask was, when you made your statement, were you envisioning the situation where there is an optical cable connecting the TV's SPDIF output to the Denon's TV optical input at the same time the TV and Denon are connected via HDMI?

That seems to be an interesting scenario because with CEC enabled, there are two potential paths for audio to move from the TV to the AVR.

That said, I have a new Panasonic HDMI 1.4 plasma and will have to see if there's anything in the manual which addresses that scenario. Perhaps there's a setting which says which of the two audio out paths should be used when under CEC control.

I was not envisioning that. Just pointing out that there are potentially many choices manufacturers can make there, and what seems most logical to you or me is not always what they do. Even without the optical cable in the picture, there are multiple potential choices.

But enough speculation. More experimentation is in order
Btw, since you got new Panasonic, I'd like to hear your experimental results too. For example, if you turn on TV, will that turn on AVR (with HDMI-CEC enabled on both ends)? Samsung TV will not send "on" command to AVR (by design). And obviously, look in the settings if there's any way to control what HDMI-CEC does with input switching there...
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post #236 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 04:22 PM
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since you've brought it up here -- do you have an opinion on the pluses and minuses of regular batteries vs. rechargeable in real world use? do regular batteries require frequent changing in these harmony remotes or is it like other remotes where they last a long time?

...i'm thinking the rechargeable is a nice idea, but in practice would be a pain to keep putting it in the cradle, making it a solution looking for a problem ...

thanks
bc

having owned / used many Harmony's.... the docking cradle is awesome, it is the furthest thing from an inconvenience. It's not like you need to dock it every day, maybe once a week... and even if you do, at least you always know where the remote is. Just plug the dock into an outlet in the room, so the remote will "live" on the A/V console or a end table or something, within easy reach.

Having to change batteries every couple of months is more inconvenient (and more wasteful) by far. the LCD screen sucks batteries so they don't last forever like with a typical remote.

If you want a charging dock but don't want to splurge on the One, I highly recommend the older Harmony 720 model (available for $80-100 on ebay and the like). Nice dock, great build quality, pretty good ergonomics, 6-button LCD screen.... I greatly prefer it to the 880, personally, but either is solid.

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post #237 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 04:58 PM
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I may not have worded that clearly. What I meant to ask was, when you made your statement, were you envisioning the situation where there is an optical cable connecting the TV's SPDIF output to the Denon's TV optical input at the same time the TV and Denon are connected via HDMI?

That seems to be an interesting scenario because with CEC enabled, there are two potential paths for audio to move from the TV to the AVR.

That light bulb been trying to flash on and off in my face for this whole last little bit then reality sets in again. It doesn't matter which path because the optical logically has to be spitting out same content as what the hdmi ARC would and vica versa. The tv/monitor/tuner/processor/or whatever we call it is only processing one source at a time and would be splitting only that content around at any given time. Affirms what I suggested about things perhaps needing to be user defined to allow for the non CEC stuff and chaining....fun times, thanx for the brain warp in bringing all this up mang!!
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post #238 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 06:30 PM
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That light bulb been trying to flash on and off in my face for this whole last little bit then reality sets in again. It doesn't matter which path because the optical logically has to be spitting out same content as what the hdmi ARC would and vica versa. The tv/monitor/tuner/processor/or whatever we call it is only processing one source at a time and would be splitting only that content around at any given time. Affirms what I suggested about things perhaps needing to be user defined to allow for the non CEC stuff and chaining....fun times, thanx for the brain warp in bringing all this up mang!!

You could have your cable/sat box hooked to AVR via optical, to the "TV input". In that case it does matter which path AVR takes audio from. Even if both come from TV, ARC can potentially be 7.1, while SPDIF can only be 5.1. So it does matter.

Suppose AVR will take ARC path, as normally HDMI wins. What's not clear to me is what should HDMI-CEC do with AVR input selector in that case. In such scenario AVR's input is basically irrelevant, since neither audio nor video would be coming from it. So maybe input won't switch at all. Or maybe it will switch to TV anyway.

I guess the fundamental question is whether ARC can coexist with video over HDMI at the same time, or it's one direction (video to TV or audio from TV) at a time. I am starting to think the latter, since that would totally explain/justify disabling HDMI input reassignment when ARC is active (except on Pioneer, which does not have ARC but does this anyway).
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post #239 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 07:35 PM
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Suppose AVR will take ARC path, as normally HDMI wins. What's not clear to me is what should HDMI-CEC do with AVR input selector in that case. In such scenario AVR's input is basically irrelevant, since neither audio nor video would be coming from it. So maybe input won't switch at all. Or maybe it will switch to TV anyway.

Now i had kind of a light bulb moment. What if you want to explicitly "switch" to ARC audio? It's a legit use case, since you could be on any input and then decide you want to watch TV with audio over ARC. But there isn't any explicitly named input you can select to do that, it's kinda "hidden input", activated "implicitly" as result of some other action. It looks as if the only way to actually do that is to make HDMI-CEC do it for you, by switching TV to internal tuner, with HDMI-CEC enabled on TV and AVR (or switching TV to some input where something else supporting HDMI-CEC is connected, such as PS3).

This would mean ARC can't pass audio from HDMI inputs of TV back to AVR, unless whatever you have connected to HDMI inputs of TV also supports HDMI-CEC (not your cable/sat box).

That would kinda make sense and explain everything:
- why ARC is only enabled if HDMI-CEC is enabled (otherwise there is no way to switch to it)
- why HDMI inputs can't be reassigned when HDMI-CEC is active (HDMI-CEC can switch you to ARC anytime)
- why TV has to switch to internal input when BD goes off (so that it can tell AVR to switch to ARC).

I don't see how else can it possibly work. It's like the string theory - can't quite prove it yet, but it would be a mathematical atrocity if it was wrong, that's how well it makes sense of things.

Now, if only cable/sat boxes supported HDMI-CEC, and TVs allowed users to select "default" input or prioritize inputs, it would be not bad
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post #240 of 5070 Old 06-16-2010, 10:14 PM
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I have the Onkyo 608 and we have now confirmed it is causing issues with Directv 3d Signaling to the Panasonic VT Series 3d tv's.. When you tune to channel 106 3d , the Tv goes split screen and not into the proper mode when connected through the Onkyo..

When you connect the directv receiver direct to the TV , it works fine..

We opened a ticket with Onkyo and apparently they are in trouble with this.. They are not sure if they can fix it.. The work around is that you have to manually change settings on the tv each time.. Not good.

So I bought the 891 today at best buy and I am going to try the same thing tonight.. I am praying denon is doing a better job and is fully compatible..

More to follow - -

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