*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 391 / 591 / 1611 Owner's Thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum
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post #3421 of 4674 Old 07-30-2011, 07:26 PM
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Ohms is a measure of resistance. I can tell you how it pertains to voltage but I always forget how voltage relates to watts.

The one important thing to remember is to match the resistance of the speakers to what the amp can handle (most amps are not 1 or 2 ohm stable for example) . The wattage should be ball park. If amp is to much don't turn it up or you will blow the speakers. If amp is not big enough you will get clipping which will destroy the speaker as well. So just try to keep everything close.

Lastly it take 10x the wattage to double the decibals on average.

If I am wrong on anything here please correct me
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post #3422 of 4674 Old 07-30-2011, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR8TR View Post

however is where my confusion is,

At 6ohm, the denon claims to output 110watts per channel (Got it from the manual). I thought impedance was linear, which in that case, based on math, would mean that if the amp can ouput 75watts at 8ohm, than at 6ohm, it would output 100watts, not 110watts as it claims...or is the 110 based on a different frequency range? Where are they getting 110 watts from?

The 6Ω rating is only based on a 1khz frequency and a much higher THD of 0.7% as opposed to a 20hz-20khz frequency range and 0.08% THD for the 8Ω rating.

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post #3423 of 4674 Old 07-30-2011, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 6Ω rating is only based on a 1khz frequency and a much higher THD of 0.7% as opposed to a 20hz-20khz frequency range and 0.08% THD for the 8Ω rating.

Oh, so at 6ohm, down at 20hz, the power rating might be different, they didn't specify. 1Khz is very high so its not hard to do higher power, I'm wondering the power at lower frequencies.

I can probably connect 4ohms to this amp, just make sure to keep the volume down so it doesn't blow.
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post #3424 of 4674 Old 07-30-2011, 08:08 PM
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Correct. If you keep the volume below -20db you should be fine. If the speakers do draw too much current the AVR will simply shut down in protection mode and you'll know that is the max volume the AVR is capable of with those speakers. If you can get to -20db without issue, you'd be wise to set the Volume Limit (p. 53) setting to -20db to ensure no one can raise the master volume above that level.

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post #3425 of 4674 Old 07-30-2011, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Does the PC work when connected directly to the TV? Sounds like you may have not unplugged the PC in time. Do you have another PC you can test with?

No the PC does not recognize the TV directly connected via HDMI either. I can't find it as a second monitor as I have before. I don't have another PC with an HDMI port I can test it with unfortunately. What exactly do you mean by I might have not unplugged the PC on time? The video card seems to be working fine with the regular monitor though, however it seems as if something goofed up with the HDMI port all of a sudden...
Any ideas, suggestions?

Thanks.
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post #3426 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobdude View Post

Ohms is a measure of resistance. I can tell you how it pertains to voltage but I always forget how voltage relates to watts.

The one important thing to remember is to match the resistance of the speakers to what the amp can handle (most amps are not 1 or 2 ohm stable for example) . The wattage should be ball park. If amp is to much don't turn it up or you will blow the speakers. If amp is not big enough you will get clipping which will destroy the speaker as well. So just try to keep everything close.

Lastly it take 10x the wattage to double the decibals on average.

If I am wrong on anything here please correct me

Minor clarification: The 6-8 ohm is actually an AC reactance measurement, while resistance is a DC impedance. Both are measured in ohms.

Fred
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post #3427 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todordd View Post

No the PC does not recognize the TV directly connected via HDMI either. I can't find it as a second monitor as I have before. I don't have another PC with an HDMI port I can test it with unfortunately. What exactly do you mean by I might have not unplugged the PC on time? The video card seems to be working fine with the regular monitor though, however it seems as if something goofed up with the HDMI port all of a sudden...
Any ideas, suggestions?

Thanks.

If the PC cannot connect to the TV, then you can't expect it to connect to the AVR. You may not have unplugged the PC in time to have prevented the storm from causing damage to the PC HDMI jack. Either that or there is simply a setting on the PC that needs to be changed. Either way, this is a PC issue.

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post #3428 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 05:27 AM
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I hate to ask such an elementary question, but I can't find it anywhere. I see users referring to "music mode" and "movie mode".

I understand that I can press "standard" and cycle through the surround formats & that the Denon remembers what format I prefer for each source signal. I also understand that some formats won't be available based on my speaker setup (however, I have 7.1 using surround backs, not front heights.) I notice on a 2.0 stereo source, I can cycle through the formats, but the music formats are not there (PLII music, DTS Neo: 6 Cinema, etc.) I've seen people refer to switching to music mode, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to do it?


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post #3429 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 06:06 AM
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^^
Refer to pp. 24 (Standard - DD PLIIx), 44 (Mode), and 45 (S. Back) in your manual to see the discussion on the "Cinema" and "Music" modes.

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post #3430 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Refer to pp. 24 (Standard - DD PLIIx), 44 (Mode), and 45 (S. Back) in your manual to see the discussion on the "Cinema" and "Music" modes.

Yep, I've read those several times. I cannot pull up a music format. Only the cinema formats.


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post #3431 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 06:55 AM
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Additionally, when playing Blu Ray's via my PS3 (fat), I have the Denon set to multi channel and I've got the PS3 sending over LPCM. This, I understand is optimal for enjoying the HD codecs. However, as I cycle through the "Standard" button, I see I have options such as "MULTI + DOLBY EX, MULTI IN + PLIIxC" What does that mean? Does it mean that it'll ouput the lossless format when available and downmix to the selected lossy format when lossless is not available?


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post #3432 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120inna55 View Post

Additionally, when playing Blu Ray's via my PS3 (fat), I have the Denon set to multi channel and I've got the PS3 sending over LPCM. This, I understand is optimal for enjoying the HD codecs. However, as I cycle through the "Standard" button, I see I have options such as "MULTI + DOLBY EX, MULTI IN + PLIIxC" What does that mean? Does it mean that it'll ouput the lossless format when available and downmix to the selected lossy format when lossless is not available?

Those options will matrix a 5.1 PCM signal to utilize your rear surrounds to simulate 7.1 surround via different methods.
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post #3433 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120inna55 View Post

... I see I have options such as "MULTI + DOLBY EX, MULTI IN + PLIIxC" What does that mean? Does it mean that it'll ouput the lossless format when available and downmix to the selected lossy format when lossless is not available?

"Downmix" means a reduction in the number of channels - taking a 5.1 source and reducing it to the stereo, for example, by folding the surrounds into the two front channels. Downmix has nothing to do with lossless and lossy. As Vampidemic explained, the options you are seeing are ways to expand stereo and 5.1 sources to 7.1. Those options can be applied to both lossless and lossy sources.
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post #3434 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120inna55 View Post

Yep, I've read those several times. I cannot pull up a music format. Only the cinema formats.

First, change the mode to PLIIx (using the Standard button) and then you go into the Surround Parameter menu to change it to "Music" mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 120inna55 View Post

Additionally, when playing Blu Ray's via my PS3 (fat), I have the Denon set to multi channel and I've got the PS3 sending over LPCM. This, I understand is optimal for enjoying the HD codecs.

It's not only optimal, it's your only option with the PS3 fat as it cannot bitstream the HD audio codecs.

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post #3435 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

First, change the mode to PLIIx (using the Standard button) and then you go into the Surround Parameter menu to change it to "Music" mode.

That's what I was looking for. Thanks!



Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

It's not only optimal, it's your only option with the PS3 fat as it cannot bitstream the HD audio codecs.

Oh, yeah. I'm firm on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampidemic View Post

Those options will matrix a 5.1 PCM signal to utilize your rear surrounds to simulate 7.1 surround via different methods.

So, what will happen if the source is an HD codec such as DTS-MA 5.1. Will it attempt to simulate 7.1 in that scenario? Ultimately, I would prefer is leave the HD codecs alone, be it 5.1 or 7.1. When I'm watching a Blu-ray, I don't want it messed with. However, if on the PS3 I'm watching a ripped DVD with Dolby Digital 2.1, etc., I would like it to "bump it up", if you will, to Neo 6 or PLIIx.

I noticed that if I use the "Standard" button switch to PLIIx while watching a Stereo or 2.0 video, the Denon remembers my choice for that codec while leaving a DD5.1 or HD codec alone. I was just curious what the "MULTI + DOLBY EX, MULTI IN + PLIIxC" setting will do.

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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

"Downmix" means a reduction in the number of channels - taking a 5.1 source and reducing it to the stereo, for example, by folding the surrounds into the two front channels. Downmix has nothing to do with lossless and lossy...

Yep, poor choice of words on my part. Thanks.


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post #3436 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 120inna55 View Post

So, what will happen if the source is an HD codec such as DTS-MA 5.1. Will it attempt to simulate 7.1 in that scenario?

Yes, of course it will as you have 7 speakers and the audio is only discrete for 5 of them. The discrete 5.1 HD audio plays to those speakers and the rear surrounds get simulated audio.

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post #3437 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 11:52 AM
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Just wanted to add that music and movie modes for Neo and Dolby can only be changed by buttons on the machine. The remote can only move the audio to Neo or Dolby. I keep one on music and one on movie so I don't have to get up
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post #3438 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 120inna55 View Post

Ultimately, I would prefer is leave the HD codecs alone, be it 5.1 or 7.1. When I'm watching a Blu-ray, I don't want it messed with.

You can certainly do that, although I am not sure why you object to matrixing a lossless source. PLIIx does nothing to the front channels and intelligently extracts some elements from the surrounds and re-routes them to the rears. Effects that would phantom image behind the listener get anchored in actual speakers.
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post #3439 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yes, of course it will as you have 7 speakers and the audio is only discrete for 5 of them. The discrete 5.1 HD audio plays to those speakers and the rear surrounds get simulated audio.

Gotcha. Then I will not use the "MULTI + DOLBY EX" or other such settings. I'll just leave it on MULTI CH IN, and only change the "lesser" codecs. Thanks.


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post #3440 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

You can certainly do that, although I am not sure why you object to matrixing a lossless source. PLIIx does nothing to the front channels and intelligently extracts some elements from the surrounds and re-routes them to the rears. Effects that would phantom image behind the listener get anchored in actual speakers.

It just seemed like it would muddy up the intended discrete nature of the HD Codecs. Kind of like a user insisting on stretching/zooming a 1.33 image to utilize every square inch of their 16:9 screen. Perhaps my logic was flawed. It's probably just a ridiculous sense of betrayal to the lossless codec.

When installing my 7.1 setup years ago, I only expected the surround backs to be utilized on rare occasions when the (at the time) 6.1 lossy codecs were available on DVDs. I later came to appreciate Neo 6 when watching older DVDs with only 2.1. 5.1 has sounded great with my system, although since getting the Denon, it feels like an entirely new system. I suppose I'll try as you suggested, though.


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post #3441 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120inna55
It just seemed like it would muddy up the intended discrete nature of the HD Codecs. Kind of like a user insisting on stretching/zooming a 1.33 image to utilize every square inch of their 16:9 screen. Perhaps my logic was flawed. It's probably just a ridiculous sense of betrayal to the lossless codec.

When installing my 7.1 setup years ago, I only expected the surround backs to be utilized on rare occasions when the (at the time) 6.1 lossy codecs were available on DVDs. I later came to appreciate Neo 6 when watching older DVDs with only 2.1. 5.1 has sounded great with my system, although since getting the Denon, it feels like an entirely new system. I suppose I'll try as you suggested, though.
Firstly, remember that lossless and discrete are two distinct concepts. Dolby Digital 5.1 is lossy, but it is still discrete.

That having been said, it sounds like you understand the implications of the modes you asked about. The matrix 7.1 modes will preserve the front three channels, but they can introduce unexpected or unusual imaging in the surround channels just like you will get when using matrix modes to convert a 2.0 stereo signal to 5.1 (though perhaps with a lesser impact overall).

I normally leave the rear surround unused for 5.1 as you described because it saves me the trouble of evaluating which matrix option will work best or not cause problems with whatever I am watching at the time and it still sounds great.
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post #3442 of 4674 Old 07-31-2011, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Vampidemic View Post
Firstly, remember that lossless and discrete are two distinct concepts. Dolby Digital 5.1 is lossy, but it is still discrete...
Yes, I understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampidemic View Post
...The matrix 7.1 modes will preserve the front three channels, but they can introduce unexpected or unusual imaging in the surround channels just like you will get when using matrix modes to convert a 2.0 stereo signal to 5.1 (though perhaps with a lesser impact overall)...
Now, you're at the meat of why I'm reluctant to use it on Blu-rays. While watching broadcast television and satellite, I don't expect perfection by any means. Thus, I have no problem turning on the matrixing while watching those sources, and the results are favorable 99% of the time. However, in terms of a well-authored Blu-ray, I don't want to risk any intended imaging or directionality just to utilize the surround backs. With 5.1, I never get a sense of emptiness, so my setup and acoustics are apparently adequate. Ultimately, after all this discussion, I'm back to my original stance, and that is I don't think it's worth risking muddying-up a well-authored soundtrack for a system that sounds great in 5.1. I want the Blu-ray to be as pure as possible.

Ultimately, my original question stemmed from the fact that I use my PS3 to both stream ripped Family Guy and Simpsons DVDs as well as to watch Blu-ray's. I think the easiest way to accomplish what I want is to use the "Standard" button while watching a 2/0/0 video to get to PLIIx or DTS Neo:6, but leave it at "MULTI CH IN" while watching a Blu-ray. I'll just avoid the "MULTI + X" options on my PS3, but I will use it for satellite viewing.

I appreciate everyone's patience with me on this.


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post #3443 of 4674 Old 08-01-2011, 08:25 PM
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Whats the current model equivalent of the AVR-591? I cant find the 591 anymore.
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post #3444 of 4674 Old 08-02-2011, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TheOnion View Post

Whats the current model equivalent of the AVR-591? I cant find the 591 anymore.

Second post of this thread. The first page of this thread is an essential read. Lots of good info there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
...

Q. OK, what are the specific differences between the AVR 391, 591 and 1611?


The AVR 391 is a very stripped down budget model that is missing some critical features, most importantly Audyssey MultEQ, Dynamic EQ, and Dynamic Volume. Although the basic platform and amp section are the same as that of the 591/1611 models, it should really not be considered for any serious home theater setup.

The AVR 591 and AVR 1611 are "twin" models. The only differences between the two (beyond cosmetics) are:

(1) The AVR 591 is a 5.1 model -- it has only 5 built-in amp channels, with pre-outs to expand to 7.1 (if you want to add "height" or "surround back" speakers)

(2) The AVR 1611 is a "true" 7.1 model, with 7 built-in amp channels, of which the last two can be "assigned" to any of the following tasks: surround back, front height, or Zone 2 speakers

(3) The AVR 1611 has a 2nd zone (but ONLY if you are running 5.1 in Main Zone, as you are required to use the "amp assign" to power the Zone 2 speakers)

(4) The AVR 1611 has a "Room-to-room" remote control jack so you can hard-wire an infrared remote extender for your 2nd zone

IN ALL OTHER RESPECTS, THE AVR 591 AND 1611 ARE IDENTICAL!...



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post #3445 of 4674 Old 08-02-2011, 04:48 AM
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Whats the current model equivalent of the AVR-591? I cant find the 591 anymore.

Hi TheOnion, new current model would be 1612 for the 591 and 1712 for the 1611.
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post #3446 of 4674 Old 08-03-2011, 01:00 PM
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Something has changed and its strange.......

All of a sudden, when I now try and use my Sony BDRS270 player hooked up to the Denon AVR 1611 thru the HDMI cable......"basic" video signals do not play???

What I mean by that is, when you turn on the BD player, the screen is blank, even though the player is now sitting at Home with the ability to do setup, disc, netflix, etc.

When you throw a DVD in it, it is still a blank screen. Press the play button on the player enough and it typically will start to play the disc, sometimes with video and audio, other times, just audio. Commercial discs seem to play both the video and audio after enough button pushing, while non commercial DVDs only end up having audio playback.

The set up was working fine until I went to set it up in a new stand, and hooked everything back up the same way (I have checked). I have a Dune player on another input and it works OK. I have tried swapping cables, swapping inputs, with no luck.......However, when I connect the BD player directly to the TV (Panasonic), everything seems to work fine, including the Home screen on the player shows up.

ANY ideas, questions, suggestions would be appreciated


I have to assume that somehow, I must have accidently changed some setting on the Denon, but in reviewing the manual, cannot figure out what it might be.
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post #3447 of 4674 Old 08-03-2011, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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there is no setting that could cause this on the Denon, it is some weird HDMI glitch. These AVR's can't even do any video processing on HDMI input signals so they should just be "plug and play".

I would try unplugging ALL the HDMI cables, powering off all components and unplugging them for 10+ minutes, then plug everything back in and power back up again.

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post #3448 of 4674 Old 08-03-2011, 02:16 PM
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Not to change the subject, but will the 591 put the menu over the top of over-the-air broadcasts? I can't get it to do that, not that I really watch much of it. I have everything hooked up with HDMI. The only way I can see the menu on screen is while using the BD player, which is the only other thing I have hooked up to the 591, besides the TV.

Thanks,

Jon
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post #3449 of 4674 Old 08-03-2011, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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no, it will not....

if you are tuning OTA (I assume you mean the coaxial cable is plugged in to the TV and you are using the built-in tuner) then the video never passes through the AVR, so there is no way for it to send the menus.

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post #3450 of 4674 Old 08-03-2011, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toshu View Post

The set up was working fine until I went to set it up in a new stand, and hooked everything back up the same way (I have checked).

Try the following settings:

Output Video = HDMI
Deep Color Output = OFF

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