Pioneer VSX-1120 TXH HDMI V1.4 Receiver Owners' Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum

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Receivers, Amps, and Processors

John M Miller's Avatar John M Miller
03:24 PM Liked: 10
post #121 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 110
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VERY interesting. So how does the external amp know what impedance to output?

Every time I think I know a little about this hobby I find out I don't know sqwat.
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj
04:32 PM Liked: 90
post #122 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 21,915
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keeping this simple...

amps don't output "impedance"...

speakers present a "load" (known as "impedance") to the amplifier...

the amp doesn't have a choice in the matter...

well... technically it does... if you present too much of a load for too long of a time, the amp says "enough is enough" and if you are lucky, engages protection before eating itself...
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj
04:35 PM Liked: 90
post #123 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 21,915
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john, google "ohms law"...

read some of the results...

it will help your understanding of this hobby greatly...
opus123's Avatar opus123
06:50 PM Liked: 10
post #124 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Just cancelled my abt order - found the same price at buy.com thru amazon and was tired of waiting. should have it by week's end and will post a review and unboxed pics.

I look forward to reading it... really enjoyed your shootout of the 1020 vs Denon & Onkyo counterparts on your site.

I'm thinking the 1120 will suit my needs, but i still have a few more weeks before i HAVE to buy something, so your insight will be much appreciated.
srt8-in-largo's Avatar srt8-in-largo
07:26 PM Liked: 10
post #125 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 165
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subscribed
Grendaizer's Avatar Grendaizer
08:13 PM Liked: 10
post #126 of 5042
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I've been on the fence between the Pioneer 1020 and the Onkyo 608 for while a while now. I thought I had settled on the 1020 until I saw at least 2 active members in the 1020 owners thread return their 1020 because it wasn't powerful enough. I'm very interested to hear your experiences with regard to sound quality on the 1120 (much more so if possibly compared with the 1020 and the Onkyo 608)
Grendaizer's Avatar Grendaizer
08:17 PM Liked: 10
post #127 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

keeping this simple...

amps don't output "impedance"...

speakers present a "load" (known as "impedance") to the amplifier...

the amp doesn't have a choice in the matter...

well... technically it does... if you present too much of a load for too long of a time, the amp says "enough is enough" and if you are lucky, engages protection before eating itself...

Forgive the ignorance as i'm very new to the A/V scene but does this mean it's possible to "fry" a receiver by attaching speakers with big loads (what characterizes a big load by the way?) I thought it was possible to blow speakers by applying too much amplification but not the other way around.
hernanu's Avatar hernanu
08:40 PM Liked: 234
post #128 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 2,645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendaizer View Post

Forgive the ignorance as i'm very new to the A/V scene but does this mean it's possible to "fry" a receiver by attaching speakers with big loads (what characterizes a big load by the way?) I thought it was possible to blow speakers by applying too much amplification but not the other way around.

Not by applying big loads, but the reverse - if you apply a smaller load (say a 4 ohm speaker) to an amplifier that is limited in its ability to deliver current, sooner or later, depending on the volume applied, the current demanded exceeds the amplifier's (receiver's) abilities and the receiver self destructs or shuts down.

Ohm's law is Voltage = Current X Resistance

In the speaker world, and in the Electrical Engineering world, resistance is really impedance.

So if you have an 8 ohm speaker, applying a voltage of 10 volts, the current demand is:

Current (I for us geeks) = Voltage.. 10 in this case / 8 ohms = 1.25 Amp.

The same for a 4 ohm speaker is:

Current = 10 / 4 ohms = 2.5 Amps.

So the smaller the impedance for a given voltage (volume, eventually), the higher the current required. The larger the voltage applied (volume), the more current is demanded. Eventually, you reach the maximum possible for a given amplifier / receiver, and bad things happen, since Ohm's law has to be satisfied.

One extra kicker is that speakers are not static, but active loads; the impedance varies over a given applied frequency range, so a given speaker may be 8 ohms at one frequency, but 6 ohms at another. At a constant volume (voltage).

This means that your speaker may have one value (and demand X current) at one frequency (say midrange music) and quite another (say 1.5X) at another frequency (say at the higher ranges of music).

Your receiver had better be able to handle the impedance range of a particular set of speakers.
ot1s31337's Avatar ot1s31337
08:41 PM Liked: 10
post #129 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 13
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I got mine today! pretty sweet so far, i'm a newb, but this is a lot better than the HK 335 it replaced.

Anyone know a good place for internet radio stations? Turns out all the ones i listen to are flash based. The vsx 1120 can only play mp3 or wma streams, thats my only let down thus far. My local stations are only 24kbps mp3, or use the new flash player that this does not support. Sound quality is much better using an antenna.
Grendaizer's Avatar Grendaizer
09:54 PM Liked: 10
post #130 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

Not by applying big loads, but the reverse - if you apply a smaller load (say a 4 ohm speaker) to an amplifier that is limited in its ability to deliver current, sooner or later, depending on the volume applied, the current demanded exceeds the amplifier's (receiver's) abilities and the receiver self destructs or shuts down.

Ohm's law is Voltage = Current X Resistance

In the speaker world, and in the Electrical Engineering world, resistance is really impedance.

So if you have an 8 ohm speaker, applying a voltage of 10 volts, the current demand is:

Current (I for us geeks) = Voltage.. 10 in this case / 8 ohms = 1.25 Amp.

The same for a 4 ohm speaker is:

Current = 10 / 4 ohms = 2.5 Amps.

So the smaller the impedance for a given voltage (volume, eventually), the higher the current required. The larger the voltage applied (volume), the more current is demanded. Eventually, you reach the maximum possible for a given amplifier / receiver, and bad things happen, since Ohm's law has to be satisfied.

One extra kicker is that speakers are not static, but active loads; the impedance varies over a given applied frequency range, so a given speaker may be 8 ohms at one frequency, but 6 ohms at another. At a constant volume (voltage).

This means that your speaker may have one value (and demand X current) at one frequency (say midrange music) and quite another (say 1.5X) at another frequency (say at the higher ranges of music).

Your receiver had better be able to handle the impedance range of a particular set of speakers.


Excellent explanation!

Some clarifications:

Does the voltage applied increase as one raises the volume? How does one compute for voltage applied? If I have 5 speakers at 8 ohms each and an applied 10 volts, does that mean a current of 5 amps (8 ohms x 5 speakers / 10 volts)? The Pioneer 1020 I think is rated at 2.5 amps. Does this mean it could hypothetically self destruct or shut down with such a load?

It's great learning new things everyday
Brad Horstkotte's Avatar Brad Horstkotte
11:30 PM Liked: 57
post #131 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 5,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendaizer View Post

I've been on the fence between the Pioneer 1020 and the Onkyo 608 for while a while now. I thought I had settled on the 1020 until I saw at least 2 active members in the 1020 owners thread return their 1020 because it wasn't powerful enough. I'm very interested to hear your experiences with regard to sound quality on the 1120 (much more so if possibly compared with the 1020 and the Onkyo 608)

Just ordered my 1120 today, so can't be much help there - but you'd need to keep in mind several factors to try to understand someone stating a receiver is "not powerful enough" - such as what is their speaker sensitivity, room size / listening distance, and what volume level they're trying to reach (relative to reference level). For example, 95 db sensitivity speakers would probably have plenty of power, 86 db sensitivity would be very different.
Grendaizer's Avatar Grendaizer
11:55 PM Liked: 10
post #132 of 5042
07-26-2010 | Posts: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Just ordered my 1120 today, so can't be much help there - but you'd need to keep in mind several factors to try to understand someone stating a receiver is "not powerful enough" - such as what is their speaker sensitivity, room size / listening distance, and what volume level they're trying to reach (relative to reference level). For example, 95 db sensitivity speakers would probably have plenty of power, 86 db sensitivity would be very different.

Oh yeah, that's yet another thing to add in the equation. The Paradigm monitor 9's are rated at 96db. Would that mean it should be easier for the Pioneer 1020 and 1120 to run/power them versus speakers of lower db sensitivity?

I guess i'll have to revisit the threads I read and check what speakers they paired with the receivers then research what db sensitivities those speakers had.

One thing clear is the Onkyo 608 is more powerful than the Pioneer 1020. Would you guys say that the Pioneer 1120 is as powerful as the Onkyo 608? I know i'm using the word "powerful" a bit loosely here but that's as far as my understanding of the lingo will take me at the moment

It's nice to be learning with all the reading i'm doing but it's also turning out that the more I read and learn, the more I find out that that there's tons more to read and learn about.
zman519's Avatar zman519
12:06 AM Liked: 10
post #133 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckhunt View Post

Could someone send me the $568 info too? Thanks.

me too please
plissken99's Avatar plissken99
01:55 AM Liked: 20
post #134 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 3,309
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Question about MCACC. I had a Denon before this, and with the Denon set up, you placed the mic at all listening postions(up to 6), and at the end the tones, it would average them all out and calibrate audio for all seating positions.

With the Pioneer, the manual says you can calibrate 6 listening postions, and save them as memory 1-6. But then you can only listen to 1 memory mode at a time. Is there no way to combine all the measurements, so all 6 positions can enjoy calibrated audio?
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj
06:35 AM Liked: 90
post #135 of 5042
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no.
hernanu's Avatar hernanu
07:28 AM Liked: 234
post #136 of 5042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendaizer View Post

Excellent explanation!

Some clarifications:

Does the voltage applied increase as one raises the volume? How does one compute for voltage applied? If I have 5 speakers at 8 ohms each and an applied 10 volts, does that mean a current of 5 amps (8 ohms x 5 speakers / 10 volts)? The Pioneer 1020 I think is rated at 2.5 amps. Does this mean it could hypothetically self destruct or shut down with such a load?

It's great learning new things everyday

Yes it does, with a couple of caveats. The volume is kind of a subjective thing, unless backed up with a meter to measure actual dB's being generated.

Decibels (dB) are the way sound is measured. In the case of human and receiver / speakers sound, the typical range we're talking about is approximately 0 to ~120 (for the masochistic). The range most people are comfortable with falls about 60 to 90.

Decibels are nonlinear (logarithmic, base 10). so to increase the decibels by 10 dB, from say 70 dB to 80 dB requires much more than 10 watts of power.

The equation for this is: dB = 10 * Log(Pout / Pin) where Pin is the power in and the Pout is the output. dB's are always differential, not absolute measurements. Since it's differential, in the special case of the Pout and Pin being applied across the same impedance (the speakers), you can substitute voltage. So the equation becomes dB = 10*Log(Vout/Vin).

So you can see that to increase by 1 dB, the Vout vs the Vin currently, you need to apply much more voltage (10 V). The louder you go, the higher the power demand, the more voltage applied and the more stressed the amplifier will get.

This sounds ominous, but remember, you are not demanding this of all speakers at all times. The typical movie / song moves sound around, so the amplifiers are never drawing an equal amount of current. Most typical use of a receiver falls around the 5 Watt area, maybe pushing to 20 or 30 in normal usage. So most receivers are just fine when being used in normal applications. As someone mentioned, this is also made easier if your speakers are more efficient (>= 90), so the receiver doesn't have to work as hard to put out the same amount of sound.
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj
07:34 AM Liked: 90
post #137 of 5042
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^^^

good solid explanation...

although i'm sure you meant "watts", not "amps" in your last paragraph...
John M Miller's Avatar John M Miller
07:37 AM Liked: 10
post #138 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

john, google "ohms law"...

read some of the results...

it will help your understanding of this hobby greatly...

That clears things up. Thanks!
plissken99's Avatar plissken99
10:37 AM Liked: 20
post #139 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 3,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

no.

Well thats lame considering a Denon 3806 from 2005 could do that.
Smackrabbit's Avatar Smackrabbit
10:51 AM Liked: 32
post #140 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

Well thats lame considering a Denon 3806 from 2005 could do that.

It's a philosophical difference rather than a technical one really. If you talk to Pioneer, with MCACC they are looking to correct the audio for an ideal listening location, as they feel the majority of the time someone is enjoying music, TV, or a movie on their own. Audyssey tries to correct issues for a wider area, but in trying to do so, they are going to have to make compromises for each of those individual locations that you are calibrating for to give the best overall result for all six of those locations.

It's hard to say that one is fundamentally better or worse than the other, since they have different goals in mind, and are taking their own approach to that goal. Pioneer also has said that they think that current AVR's don't have the processing power to do as much calculation as they would want to do an Audyssey-style area correction (and given that Audyssey has a pro version of their processing that has far more filtering and sells for a few thousand dollars on it's own, that's certainly possible), but it also means they might move to something similar in the future as processing power increases.

So, it's not that MCACC can't do what Audyssey does, it's that they are taking a different approach, and you can decide for yourself if you like that approach, or if you prefer the Audyssey approach from a different vendor.
plissken99's Avatar plissken99
10:57 AM Liked: 20
post #141 of 5042
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I had a feeling that was the case. The selfish side of me is glad to have MCACC, I do feel a bit sorry for people sitting outside the sweet spot... but I still sit there.

BTW, audio is indeed tighter than it's ever been. Of course with the Denon only being able to pass through the lossless surround codecs, this is the 1st time I've had truely balanced audio.
hernanu's Avatar hernanu
11:21 AM Liked: 234
post #142 of 5042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

good solid explanation...

although i'm sure you meant "watts", not "amps" in your last paragraph...

Lack of Oxygen from overtyping... damn that Red Bull!!!
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj
11:26 AM Liked: 90
post #143 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 21,915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

I had a feeling that was the case. The selfish side of me is glad to have MCACC, but I feel a bit sorry for people sitting outside the sweet spot... but I still sit there.

BTW, audio is indeed tighter than it's ever been. Of course with the Denon only being able to pass through the lossless surround codecs, this is the 1st time I've had truely balanced audio.

well, it's not like mcacc destroys the sound outside the sweet spot... it's not inherently evil to those sitting outside the magic seat...

i've used mcacc (extensively) and audyssey (more limited, my 9.9 is my first "home" equipment with it, i use it in my cars as well)... to be completely honest, my preference is for mcacc... neither result is objectionable (even outside the sweetspot ), but audyssey allows for no adjustments to it's curve, whereas mcacc allows you to have at it...

ymmv...
Brad Horstkotte's Avatar Brad Horstkotte
11:28 AM Liked: 57
post #144 of 5042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendaizer View Post

Oh yeah, that's yet another thing to add in the equation. The Paradigm monitor 9's are rated at 96db. Would that mean it should be easier for the Pioneer 1020 and 1120 to run/power them versus speakers of lower db sensitivity?

Yup.
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj
11:29 AM Liked: 90
post #145 of 5042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

Lack of Oxygen from overtyping... damn that Red Bull!!!

been there... too much caffeine makes my fingers get ahead of my brain...
ultrajones's Avatar ultrajones
05:59 PM Liked: 10
post #146 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 8
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Has anyone been able to obtain the RS232 command reference for the Pioneer VSX-1120-K Receiver?

Regards,
Ultrajones
palehorse's Avatar palehorse
08:18 PM Liked: 12
post #147 of 5042
07-27-2010 | Posts: 2,393
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Are there any special tricks to setting this system up in a 3.1 speaker configuration instead of the standard 5.1/7.1?
ot1s31337's Avatar ot1s31337
08:21 AM Liked: 10
post #148 of 5042
07-28-2010 | Posts: 13
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the Auto MCACC setup should detect which speakers you have connected
winston9332's Avatar winston9332
08:46 AM Liked: 31
post #149 of 5042
07-28-2010 | Posts: 5,822
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so when are we going to get some user pics in? mine is not due for delivery until monday!
John M Miller's Avatar John M Miller
09:27 AM Liked: 10
post #150 of 5042
07-28-2010 | Posts: 110
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It doesn't seem like the 1120 does 9.1. Or more specifically it doesn't seem like it is possible to have surround backs and front heights outputting sound *at the same time*, even if either set is hooked up to an external amp.

Although the 1120 manual clearly shows a 9.1 setup, the VSX-32 manual says later on in the "Listening in surround sound" section that Pro Logic IIz is "Up to 7.1 channel sound (front height)". None of the surround modes list 9.1 as an option.

But I thought I'd ask if anyone has tried this yet...

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