The **Official** Denon 3311CI/ 991 Owner's Thread NO PRICE TALK - Page 104 - AVS Forum
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post #3091 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
MLP = Main Listening Position, yes

Sub recommendations will depend on budget

In terms of crossovers, definitely stick with 80Hz for the RC-10's. The RC-30's / RC-LCR can take a 60Hz crossover but there is really no downside to 80Hz, and more of the bass will be shifted to the subwoofers.... but with your current "inferior" subwoofer, you might find it actually sounds better with the front 3 speakers at 60Hz since they probably produce cleaner bass.

Remember also that you can set a separate crossover for multichannel vs. 2-ch stereo on the Denon AVR's (Manual Setup > Audio Setup > 2CH Direct/Stereo). So you could go 80Hz all around for movies, but switch to 60Hz for critical 2-ch music (for example).
I think that is why it sounded like I had more "bass" because more was being transferred to the sub instead of the mains. As far as budget goes I dont want to spend over $1500 on a sub setup...whether that is something like one SVS sub or two smaller subs. I think two smaller subs totalling up to $1500 may be the best route. I think if I had just one SVS sub it would sound great, but work the sub more since it is just one.

Awesome thanks I will do that when I get home for 2-ch and leave it as is for the rest. I dont listen to music much a bunch...my ratio is about 80/20(HT/music)
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post #3092 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 11:49 AM
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3b) because your receiver only has 7 built-in amps, 2 of which are assignable, you cannot power both Zones 2 and 3 with internal amps (unless you switch them both to MONO output). So you are correct that you are not getting any "value" from the 3 zones if you are using internal amps only. If you want to have true separate "zones", you will need to add another amp. If you are OK with the two zones not being independent, you can hook up to the internal amps but you should add an in-line "impedance matching speaker switch" to protect the receiver from the load of 4 speakers running off two amps. You will be limited to the same source in both "zones" but at least you will have independent power control (via the speaker switch).
Well, I have my old AVR-3805! Here are my requirements:

* would prefer to use ONLY the 3311, but can use the 3805 if needed
* would like to have iTunes music from PC Toslink (or AppleTV Toslink) playing on Zone 2 and/or Zone 3, while HDMI content is playing in Main Zone
* do not need separate content playing on Zone2 and Zone3 at same time
* but, would LIKE to control volume levels on Zone2 and Zone3 separately, including turning off zone2 while zone 3 is playing and vice versa.
* would like to use the Denon Remote app on the iPhone to control most of this, volume especially (which seems to work well for the main functions)

I might have to make a sweet donation to the BatPig PayPal fund if this works out!
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post #3093 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig

things which could cause this:

1) the volume for the two zones are different in the AVR (remember there are separate volume controls for each zone)

2) the volume on the Adcom amp is different for the separate channels (if your amp has a volume control)

3) the speakers in the two zones are of different sensitivity

are you SURE that your settings are the same for both zones??

I set zone volumes all the same

Adomcom input level set to same. ( no volume control on amp )

Speakers for both zones are all the same. All 8 ohm ( kef in walls )

I set amp on the 3311 to normal
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post #3094 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 12:20 PM
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switch the speaker wire and see if the volume problem "follows" the wire...

- swap speaker wiring for Zone 2 and Zone 3 speakers on the back of the Adcom
- if the "low volume" problem switches to the other speakers, the problem is "upstream"
- if the "low volume" problem sticks to the same speakers, the problem is "downstream" (e.g. either the speakers themselves, or the wiring to them, are defective)

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post #3095 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRealDeal1 View Post

I ran auddessy auto setup twice to make sure the settings were correct. I found that my sub settings were off in distance both times. I have a 15 inch sub. I had always kept it a little turned up to get that extra boom on balanced audio (without the extra bass already introduced). After testing with a SP meter I found that the -12db level set by auto setup was correct. amazing since this seems so low compared to all the other speaker levels but the SP meter doesn't lie.

You might try adjusting the gain downwards on the sub and re running a single position and calculation until the auto setup returns a value of 0 +/- 3db. Then run a full 8 position calibration. I believe at -12db the system is as low as it will allow and is limiting how much Audyssey can autocorrect.
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post #3096 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 01:52 PM
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Well, I have my old AVR-3805! Here are my requirements:

* would prefer to use ONLY the 3311, but can use the 3805 if needed
* would like to have iTunes music from PC Toslink (or AppleTV Toslink) playing on Zone 2 and/or Zone 3, while HDMI content is playing in Main Zone
* do not need separate content playing on Zone2 and Zone3 at same time
* but, would LIKE to control volume levels on Zone2 and Zone3 separately, including turning off zone2 while zone 3 is playing and vice versa.
* would like to use the Denon Remote app on the iPhone to control most of this, volume especially (which seems to work well for the main functions)

I might have to make a sweet donation to the BatPig PayPal fund if this works out!

I meant to make this a question. Do you think I could accomplish the above with just the 3311 and speaker wire?

Also, I was able to get the Apple TV to output to Zone 2 but the computer's Toslink and/or Digital Coax don't seem to make it to Zone 2. Do you think it could be a manufacturer defect? Plays music from iTunes just fine in Main Zone.
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post #3097 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:04 PM
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No. As bp already indicated, you'll have to use the 3805 to get independent stereo audio to both Zones 2 and 3.

Make sure the computer's optical/digital coax is set to PCM 2.0 otherwise it won't go to Zone 2/3.

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post #3098 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Zone 2 is added as a separate device. When you go to the "add device" screen and input the model number, it will give you a screen with checkboxes and zone label inputs below so you can name zones and select which ones you are using (see attached JPG screenshot).

Since you already have your main zone device added, just uncheck "Room 1" and name Zone 2 and keep it checked.

I added the AVR as another device and did as you said. I unchecked Room 1 and kept Room 2 checked and called the device name AVR-Zone 2.

However, it seems like the buttons on AVR-Zone 2 just mimic those of Zone 1. For instance, I listen to the radio, which uses zone 1. This powers up zone 1. I switch the device on my remote to AVR-Zone 2 and hit "power" but then the entire unit powers down. Zone 2 functions as if it was Zone 1.
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post #3099 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No. As bp already indicated, you'll have to use the 3805 to get independent stereo audio to both Zones 2 and 3.

Make sure the computer's optical/digital coax is set to PCM 2.0 otherwise it won't go to Zone 2/3.

What is "independent audio?" Does that mean playing the same music on Zone 2 and 3 at the same time with the ability to turn off zone 2 or zone 3? Or, does your definition of "independent" mean that I can play one source on 2 and another source on zone 3? I need the former.

Also, it sounds so simple to "make sure the computer is set to PCM..." How would one ACTUALLY go about doing that with iTunes? Is that a device driver level of the sound card or software controlled in iTunes? Please be specific. I can get ambiguities from the manual. Thanks!
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post #3100 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:16 PM
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Regardless of whether you want separate sources on Zone 2 and Zone 3 or not, if you want "stereo" audio to each Zone you need to add 2 more channels via an external amp. If you only want to send a "mono" signal to each Zone then the 3311 can do this without the aid of the 3805. Some in the wall speakers are able to take a single "mono" signal and simulate stereo audio.

Can't help you on how to setup your sound card on your PC. You'll have to look at your Owner's manual for that. Bottom line, if the input from your PC displays as anything other than 2.0 on the 3311 front panel, it ain't goin to Zones 2 or 3.

Btw ... DD and DTS audio tracks are "compressed" audio (think zipped computer files). In order for the speakers to play that audio those tracks must be decoded/uncompressed (think unzipped) to PCM format. PCM 2.0 means 2 channel (ie stereo) format. Your PC sournd card is likely currently set to play DD 5.1 (ie multi channel audio).

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post #3101 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

switch the speaker wire and see if the volume problem "follows" the wire...

- swap speaker wiring for Zone 2 and Zone 3 speakers on the back of the Adcom
- if the "low volume" problem switches to the other speakers, the problem is "upstream"
- if the "low volume" problem sticks to the same speakers, the problem is "downstream" (e.g. either the speakers themselves, or the wiring to them, are defective)

Thanks Batpig I will give that a try as son as I get the unit back
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post #3102 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Can't help you on how to setup your sound card on your PC. You'll have to look at your Owner's manual for that.

Cool. Just changed my sound card settings to 96Khz Digital out and a little logo popped up PCM 2.0, and now Zone 2 gets it! This is great, thanks!

Zone 2 = Patio
Zone 3 = Pool Area

The only thing I need to understand is how to turn off the Patio, and just keep the music at the Pool area using Zone 3. Using only speaker wire and no extra amp, is this possible?
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post #3103 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:40 PM
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Using only speaker wire and no extra amp, is this possible?

no. not unless you add in, at minimum, a passive A/B speaker switch to split the signal.

another option is to install in-line volume controls, one each for the patio speakers and pool area speakers. Set the volume out on the Denon to a fixed level, and then use the volume controls to control the volume in the two "zones" and just turn the volume all the way down when you want to turn a "zone" off.

to do anything more than that, you will need more amps.

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post #3104 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cmcartman View Post

You might try adjusting the gain downwards on the sub and re running a single position and calculation until the auto setup returns a value of 0 +/- 3db. Then run a full 8 position calibration. I believe at -12db the system is as low as it will allow and is limiting how much Audyssey can autocorrect.

this is good advice. My feeling is that the root cause of his "too much bass" problems are that his subwoofer's gain is too loud! Audyssey "ran out of room" trying to correct it.

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post #3105 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by banzai75x View Post

However, it seems like the buttons on AVR-Zone 2 just mimic those of Zone 1. For instance, I listen to the radio, which uses zone 1. This powers up zone 1. I switch the device on my remote to AVR-Zone 2 and hit "power" but then the entire unit powers down. Zone 2 functions as if it was Zone 1.

use the "learning" function to teach the Harmony the correct discrete Zone 2 on/off buttons from the factory remote.

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post #3106 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 05:01 PM
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this is good advice. My feeling is that the root cause of his "too much bass" problems are that his subwoofer's gain is too loud! Audyssey "ran out of room" trying to correct it.

Ok. The first time I had the sub set to 50% volume on the sub amp. The second time it was at about 45% (Still came out to -12db). I'll turn it down to 30% and redo auto calibration. I hope the third time's a charm.
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post #3107 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 05:15 PM
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Here's the takeaway ... regardless of the sub's gain setting, if the Denon sets the sub trim to -12db, then the sub gain has to be lowered to a level such that the sub trim is < -12db. At 30% or roughly 10 o'clock, that should do the trick.

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post #3108 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 05:46 PM
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Here's the takeaway ... regardless of the sub's gain setting, if the Denon sets the sub trim to -12db, then the sub gain has to be lowered to a level such that the sub trim is < -12db. At 30% or roughly 10 o'clock, that should do the trick.

I set it to 10 o'clock. The sub channel level was now measured to be -9.5 db. I've never turned my big sub down this low b4 Crossovers set my fronts to full band, center to 40Hz (I might change this) and surrounds to 120Hz.

The auto setup still thinks my sub is 23.9 ft away when it is only 6.6 ft but behind the couch. This seems to be close to the two other auto setup results, yet I don't hear any perceived delay in bass or bass that reaches me too soon. Now with input levels set back to 0db, I'll evaluate the resulting DynamicEQ results.
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post #3109 of 10501 Old 11-05-2010, 06:35 PM
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this is good advice. My feeling is that the root cause of his "too much bass" problems are that his subwoofer's gain is too loud! Audyssey "ran out of room" trying to correct it.

You hit the nail on the head. Dare I say that there is not enough bass now. LOL. I had to put the reference offset back up to 10Hz in the audyssey adjustments menu. Even 5 Hz sounds good. I guess Audyssey was really factoring in the sub value that was out of range into its calculation. Amazing. Now I am getting that Denon sound that I have come to love. You guys are awesome.
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post #3110 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 03:04 AM
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You hit the nail on the head. Dare I say that there is not enough bass now. LOL. I had to put the reference offset back up to 10Hz in the audyssey adjustments menu. Even 5 Hz sounds good. I guess Audyssey was really factoring in the sub value that was out of range into its calculation. Amazing. Now I am getting that Denon sound that I have come to love. You guys are awesome.

Oh wow... I just checked my sub level and Audyssey has it set at -11.5db! (but it has my other speakers as low as -9.5db) What's odd is that my sub level on the sub itself is already nearly all the way down! (about 75% down from full). I guess the Sunfire Signature has a high gain input? (as does my Emo XPA-5?) At -11.5db, should I turn down the sub more and re-run Audyssey? I also might pickup a Yamaha A2000 today to directly compare to the Denon. Something about the Denon on the musical side for 2-channel that just isn't jiving with me... going to turn down my sub and re-run Audyssey.
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post #3111 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 04:39 AM
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...I had to put the reference offset back up to 10Hz in the audyssey adjustments menu. Even 5 Hz sounds good...

Note that for film soundtracks directly played on DVDs and Blu-ray no offset is needed, as they are recorded at reference and DynEq is calibrated to that. Use it for anything broadcast on tv and for CD's, MP3, etc., as needed.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #3112 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 04:42 AM
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Oh wow... I just checked my sub level and Audyssey has it set at -11.5db! (but it has my other speakers as low as -9.5db) ... At -11.5db, should I turn down the sub more and re-run Audyssey? ... Something about the Denon on the musical side for 2-channel that just isn't jiving with me... going to turn down my sub and re-run Audyssey.

Slow down, dude. No need to turn down the sub anymore, leave it right there. Anything other than -12 is great; Audyssey is making proper adjustments.

I think you could well sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor; take some time out and listen to some good quality Blu-ray movies or even concerts (Roy Orbison Black & White Nights or Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City are superb). These are 5.1, and should sound great with Audyssey with DynEQ (not DynVol on).

For music on CD remember to adjust the Dyn level offset back to 10 or 15 and use the Stereo mode. See which of these you like best: A/B compare speakers large 2.0 vs small 2.1 with 80 Hz crossover speaker setting. Then A/B/C compare: Audyssey off/Audyss(never DynVol on). For MP3, try "restorer HQ". Then after a week repost and describe what you hear.

Folks often get improved SQ with subsequent autosetup reruns, especially by varying mic position groupings and keeping them all within 2-3' of MLP and away from reflective surfaces (walls, seatback), as per the audyssey setup guide referenced on batpig's site. For ongoing problem SQ re: bass, repositioning MLP and/or the sub (see subcrawl) often results in better SQ.

Yamaha YPAO? We'd be interested to get your report if you try it, but man, that's a lot of work and I really wouldn't expect equal much less better SQ.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #3113 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 05:21 AM
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Oh wow... I just checked my sub level and Audyssey has it set at -11.5db! (but it has my other speakers as low as -9.5db) What's odd is that my sub level on the sub itself is already nearly all the way down! (about 75% down from full). I guess the Sunfire Signature has a high gain input?

That setting is more likely due to the placement of the sub in your room. Do you have it in a corner? If yes, pull it out. In fact do the sub crawl for the best placement of the sub. Also, as SOM notes, as long as the Denon sets it below -12db there's no reason to rerun AUTO SETUP, however, it also means there's no way to lower it via the remote should you find it too bassy. Rerun it again so it's closer to 0db and that will give you some additional lower adjusment via the remote.

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post #3114 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

That setting is more likely due to the placement of the sub in your room. Do you have it in a corner? If yes, pull it out. In fact do the sub crawl for the best placement of the sub. Also, as SOM notes, as long as the Denon sets it below -12db there's no reason to rerun AUTO SETUP, however, it also means there's no way to lower it via the remote should you find it too bassy. Rerun it again so it's closer to 0db and that will give you some additional lower adjusment via the remote.

I turned down the sub's level and re-ran Audyssey and now it says -8.5 which is where my mains are set at. The sub also has a built in auto eq with mic - should I even use it with Audyssey? I did run the sub's built in auto eq first, and then Audyssey, but it has a contour dial to use partial eq or all the way down is bypass for the internal eq and it also allows manual adjustments (only four band though). Should I just bypass the subs eq and re-run Audyssey or would the first layer of the subs built in eq before Audyssey help with a smoother end-result?
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post #3115 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Emig5m View Post

Should I just bypass the subs eq and re-run Audyssey or would the first layer of the subs built in eq before Audyssey help with a smoother end-result?

Hi. Yes, per the guide, I'd indeed bypass/defeat all the EQ filters in the sub that you can and rerun autosetup to hear what that sounds like. There are a few hi-end subs with sophisticated EQ programs which for problem rooms can offer additional benefit if run prior to autosetup, but for more expert advice on that I'd refer you to the Audyssey thread.

Again, it does not really matter if it is -11.5 or -8.5; it was level-matched to your surrounds at -11.5, and is level-matched now, so all that is good. To verify that your sub and MLP are not in a room node, listen to the bass from other positions or try a sub crawl.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #3116 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Slow down, dude. No need to turn down the sub anymore, leave it right there. Anything other than -12 is great; Audyssey is making proper adjustments.

I think you could well sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor; take some time out and listen to some good quality Blu-ray movies or even concerts (Roy Orbison Black & White Nights or Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City are superb). These are 5.1, and should sound great with Audyssey with DynEQ (not DynVol on).

For music on CD remember to adjust the Dyn level offset back to 10 or 15 and use the Stereo mode. See which of these you like best: A/B compare speakers large 2.0 vs small 2.1 with 80 Hz crossover speaker setting. Then A/B/C compare: Audyssey off/Audyss(never DynVol on). For MP3, try "restorer HQ". Then after a week repost and describe what you hear.

Folks often get improved SQ with subsequent autosetup reruns, especially by varying mic position groupings and keeping them all within 2-3' of MLP and away from reflective surfaces (walls, seatback), as per the audyssey setup guide referenced on batpig's site. For ongoing problem SQ re: bass, repositioning MLP and/or the sub (see subcrawl) often results in better SQ.

Yamaha YPAO? We'd be interested to get your report if you try it, but man, that's a lot of work and I really wouldn't expect equal much less better SQ.

What's MLP?
Thanks

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post #3117 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by centauro74 View Post

What's MLP?
Thanks

Sorry for the lingo=
main listening position

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #3118 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 04:58 PM
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Hey guys

recently on average once a day I have been getting a loud POP from my 3311

Everything still works fine afterward , the unit is well ventilated, and it does not matter if the audio is loud or soft? The receiver is plugged into a Monster HTS 3600

I have Definitive BP 7004's which I thought might have been what It was coming from, but I was Sitting right it front of the receiver today when it happened

any thoughts?

Thanks
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post #3119 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 05:00 PM
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Just got my 3311ci about a week ago from EE. (By the way mine was double boxed and I did not even request it). It replaced an Onkyo TX-SR608 that I have had since May. I wanted something that I could add an amp too down the line, something that would help EQ my sub (Rythmic F15), and, well, I just wanted to upgrade.

My speakers are Polk Monitor 70's for the fronts, Monitor 30's for the rear and a CS10 for the center in a 5.1 setup. The speakers may be upgraded in about 6-8 months, but I actually like them, so I am not sure. My room is 11x18x8 and my sub is located in the front right corner (no choice). Besides the Audyssey filters, I have an anti mode 8033 taming the low frequency peaks.

Everything works flawlessly including the network connectivity. Movies sound terrific and much more "alive" than they did with the Onkyo and near reference levels. The ONLY issue I am having with this receiver is with music played through my HTPC 320kbps mp3 files. I use multi channel stereo as I prefer it to 2.1. I loved the way the Onk sounded in this mode. It utilized about 75% of total output from the front stage and 25% from the surrounds. The Denon seems to have the gain on all the same and it does not sound very good. Surrounds are way too loud. Since the surrounds are much closer to me that the fronts. Is there any way to lower the volume of just the surrounds, but ONLY in multi channel stereo, or only for the input assigned to my PC? I realize the unit has a fader control, but I have to manually set and unset that every time I listen to music. I am trying to avoid having to constantly fiddle with it.

Any guidance would be most appreciated...

Too many toys
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post #3120 of 10501 Old 11-06-2010, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mde8965 View Post
...I use multi channel stereo as I prefer it to 2.1. I loved the way the Onk sounded in this mode. It utilized about 75% of total output from the front stage and 25% from the surrounds. The Denon seems to have the gain on all the same and it does not sound very good. Surrounds are way too loud...
Hi, welcome, glad you're enjoying your new toy. When I got my first Denon, it really woke my Polks up and kinda put them on the back burner of upgrades.

Have you tried PLIIx music or DTS Neo6x? The Denon Multi channel Stereo is not a good choice for most applications. I use it for party music or background music with DynVol on MN. With my 2809, the Denon remembers the channel trims and fader setting per input, but I don't think the 3311 does.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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