The **Official** Denon 3311CI/ 991 Owner's Thread NO PRICE TALK - Page 36 - AVS Forum
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post #1051 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soljarag View Post

Hey,

Before I buy this receiver I was wondering if it is possible to play video from one source and audio from another...


If I have my PC connected to it with a dvi>hdmi adaptor and audio with a TOS link cable... would that work?

Thanks!

yes, simply assign both inputs to the same "name" and then set Input Mode to DIGITAL to force audio from the toslink optical cable (if you don't, the AVR will be expecting audio from the HDMI).

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post #1052 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 04:55 PM
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Oops, I must've posted the picture in which she'd misplaced her lab coat.

Gary and yel, I have RT800i Polk towers which have only 2-way passive xovers. There are 2 6.5" "woofer drivers" on 1 side and the "tweeter driver" on the other. I opted for these vs the more expensive towers with internal powered woofers, as I was going 5.1. I have been very pleased with what MultEQXT on my 2809 does to smoothly blend the fronts with the sub and make the whole system sound like it cost 2-3X as much.

Yel, I noticed quite an improvement moving the fronts from 12' to an all equidistant semicircle 9' from MLP, with FR/L each at a 30 degree angle. (See picture below.) My room is bright and untreated so that helped to reduce the reflected/direct ratio. But WOW, 1m, that's nearfield alright! I don't even sit within 1m' of the Event Tria powered monitors in my home studio!

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1053 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 06:15 PM
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Oh, yel, I got to thinking about that 1 m distance to your MLP. That happens to be the standard distance used to measure speaker sensitivity, as you may know. And as I'm sure you know, your speakers, those pretty darn nice 3 ways, are nominally rated at 8 Ohms and at 95 dB sensitivity ("2 speakers in a typical room" per the E website), which means fed exactly 1 watt of power to each speaker, at 1m they together produce a SPL of 95 dB, which is, technically speaking, pretty damn loud. Your 3311 is rated at 125W/Ch into 8 ohms. This should mean that you are using only 1% or so of the available output of each amp even at such considerable volume. So it is difficult for me to fathom how the availability of potentially a little more power through AVR biamping would benefit the SQ, particularly in your circumstance. I will be very interested to hear about your testing results.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1054 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 06:47 PM
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Well, I will be a proud owner of a 3311CI as soon as Denon sees fit to ship some to Electronics-Expo. I am jumping up and down and really don't care if it takes a month as I got a screaming deal with the help of someone here.

I guess you can't post prices here, but lets just say I would have been happy to get it at the sale price they had a little while ago.

EDIT: Stepping up from a 1909. Should I be expecting a significant improvement in sound?

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post #1055 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 06:50 PM
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I bought one from 6ave and am waiting for it to get here on Monday. I made them an offer and after approx 5 days the accepted it. Think it was a good/fair deal given limited availability of the unit.

I currently have a 4308, think I'll hear any diff? Better or worse?
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post #1056 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 07:43 PM
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Just installed speakercraft AIM8 speakers, but i have to wait "2 weeks" for electronics expo to ship the 3311, IF THEY GET IT. i'm so excited I'm gonna bust. Already, I have the speakers hooked up to an entry level onkyo receiver and the difference is amazing from the stock speakers that came w/ the receiver. My buddy has an AV business and said I havent seen anything yet. Please Please Please start shipping again!!! Oh, and btw, the price i got from electronics expo (i called) was amazing! Over 30% off MSRP.
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post #1057 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Oh, yel, I got to thinking about that 1 m distance to your MLP. That happens to be the standard distance used to measure speaker sensitivity, as you may know. And as I'm sure you know, your speakers, those pretty darn nice 3 ways, are nominally rated at 8 Ohms and at 95 dB sensitivity ("2 speakers in a typical room" per the E website), which means fed exactly 1 watt of power to each speaker, at 1m they together produce a SPL of 95 dB, which is, technically speaking, pretty damn loud. Your 3311 is rated at 125W/Ch into 8 ohms. This should mean that you are using only 1% or so of the available output of each amp even at such considerable volume. So it is difficult for me to fathom how the availability of potentially a little more power through AVR biamping would benefit the SQ, particularly in your circumstance. I will be very interested to hear about your testing results.


I set the receiver to -20dB volume and listened from about 2ft away for short periods of time (~30 seconds), listening closely to the mids or specifically, certain parts of the song where the mids are a bit harder to hear, ie. background instrument playing. This was after I noticed the recessed mids so I wanted to make sure it wasn't the room or placement that was causing this effect. I'll post up what I find.

As for how bi-amping would help for even lower levels, like I said, I'm not sure how the amplifier section of a receiver is designed, but I'm sure the current is limited based on the volume set for a number of reasons. This means even if I set the receiver to a volume that equates to 1wpc, the receiver most likely won't send more than a few watts to power the woofers. I'm quite certain that there is only a certain +- percentage margin of wattage the receiver is allowed to send the speakers based on the volume. Because of this, bi-amping produces benefits not because the receiver doesn't send enough wattage to the speakers, but rather the correct proportion of wattage to each driver when bi-amped. The design of the crossover and the quality of it's components, most likely, has a huge impact on how much bi-amping will benefit.

Again, all this is theory until I actually do some tests.
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post #1058 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 07:53 PM
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Oh, when I spoke to EE about the receiver, they said that they're sold out b/c Denon stopped shipping the product. They're not sure why, but the speculation is that it is due to a handshake issue. Has Anyone heard about this yet? Last week, EE was told that the items were backordered by 3 weeks and now they're told that it will be 1 or 2 weeks, so it sounds like we're going in the right direction...
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post #1059 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skremese View Post

...I currently have a 4308, think I'll hear any diff? Better or worse?

The 4308 remains a formidable AVR indeed. If you purchased the Audyssey DEQ/DVol "feature package upgrade" and installed it on your unit, I can't imagine how you are going to get better SQ by dropping down the Denon line. If you did not spend the $100, then you are in for a treat when listening below reference with DEQ. Why did you decide to replace the 4308 with a 3311, if you don't mind my asking?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1060 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post

...EDIT: Stepping up from a 1909. Should I be expecting a significant improvement in sound?

Short answer is yes, why not? Expecting an improvement, you are almost certain to hear one!

Psychology aside, this also depends to an extent on your speakers and your room. MultEQXT has far more corrective power than MultEQ, so the worse the room acoustics, the more improvement you'll hear. Of course, you should always try to improve the room and optimize speaker placement. The better your speakers, the more they will be able to display the capability of the 3311, which has several other components (AL24+, etc) besides XT which improve SQ over the 19 series.

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post #1061 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

I set the receiver to -20dB volume and listened from about 2ft away for short periods of time (~30 seconds), listening closely to the mids or specifically...

Oh, so perhaps I misunderstood. If your MLP is not usually @ 1m, then nearfield listening would not be the most valid test of your sytem in actual practice. Of course, what I am shooting for is the best SQ in my chair.

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post #1062 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 10:54 PM
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My new 3311ci is not playing nicely with my Sony Vaio VPC-EB190X laptop. Video is fine, it's the audio that's driving me crazy. Stereo and DTS audio formats play fine. That includes BluRay and mp3s. On Dolby Digital audio formats, the audio flickers on and off in random patterns. It's like the audio is getting interrupted by another process or something. If I bypass the 3311ci and plug it straight to the my 46" JVC LCD which was what I was doing before I got this AVR, no issues whatsoever. Also, when the 3311ci is in standby mode, once a Dolby Digital audio format is played, the audio quits altogether. Neither stereo or DTS signals will play unless the receiver is turned on again. The 3311CI also doesn't like my Motorola DVR/cable box. Video/audio stutters via HDMI into it. I don't mind this too much since I can plug the video straight into the LCD and use an optical cable to the AVR.

I have the latest firmware on the 3311ci and the latest video drivers for the AT HD 5470 video. All my cables are high speed cables from Monoprice and they all work fine. I tried different cables and tried the EDID override using Moninfo. I tried every freaking HDMI connection and played with all the HDMI/Video adjustments. Nothing has worked. I'm about to return this thing. I'm hoping someone here has an answer since I can't get a reply back from Denon.

Thanks in advance.
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post #1063 of 10489 Old 07-22-2010, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skremese View Post

I currently have a 4308, think I'll hear any diff? Better or worse?

As somebody else wrote, if your room is fairly good acoustically, the newer Audyssey SW in the 3311 won't make much of a difference compared to the original, non-upgraded Audyssey in the 4308. If that is the case, your older 4308 may sound better.

If you got the feature upgrade on the 4308, or you don't use Audyssey at all (and there are some that don't), I will bet a dollar that the 4308 will definitely sound better.

The only way I can imagine the 3311 will sound better is if your room is a mess acoustically, and you haven't gotten the feature upgrade on the 4308. In that case, it is possible the newer Audyssey SW may make the 3311 sound better.

I assume you desire some feature(s) on the 3311 that isn't available on the 4308. If you have the budget, and the patience, perhaps you should wait for the 4311.
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post #1064 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by garypen View Post

As somebody else wrote, if your room is fairly good acoustically, the newer Audyssey SW in the 3311 won't make much of a difference compared to the original, non-upgraded Audyssey in the 4308...

Gary, both units in question have MultEQXT. I don't know if you're referring to my remarks to the OP, but I cannot agree with your one assertion bolded above. Room acoustics (and even correcting the speakers) has little to nothing to do with the benefits of DEQ. DEQ technology is aimed at psychoacoustics (equal loudness curves, perception of the surround field, etc.), not room acoustics. Room and speaker correction are the province of MultEQXT, which would be equal in both units. The newer unit does have DSX, allowing for wides.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1065 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 07:15 AM
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Is the sub remote control that comes with the 3311 based on IR or RF?
I'm planning to have a zone for my kitchen (one floor up) and I'd like to be able to use the remote there.

Will I need to add an IR repeater to my plans?
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post #1066 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 07:37 AM
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Yup, they're both IR.

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post #1067 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18628239 View Post

They have been out of stock at least since the 12th (of this month) when I placed my order. Third requested order status this morning resulted in stock 'may' be available July 30th.

So much for the Expo's 'couple of days' for new inventory.

As suggested, check out 6Ave or even J&R and see if they'll match the price offered at EE. I purchased my AVR from J&R only to find out a week later that 6Ave was selling it for $100 less. I called J&R and they credited me the $100.

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post #1068 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Gary, both units in question have MultEQXT. I don't know if you're referring to my remarks to the OP, but I cannot agree with your one assertion bolded above. Room acoustics (and even correcting the speakers) has little to nothing to do with the benefits of DEQ. DEQ technology is aimed at psychoacoustics (equal loudness curves, perception of the surround field, etc.), not room acoustics. Room and speaker correction are the province of MultEQXT, which would be equal in both units. The newer unit does have DSX, allowing for wides.

Hmmm. Interesting. I have historically chosen not to use Audyssey precisely because I always felt it was more for psychoacoustic embellishment than room correction, even though Audyssey fans zealously insisted otherwise. (And, even if it was solely room correction, I felt it was imperfect at it.)

So, all of my conclusions to the poster's question are still valid concerning which unit will most likely sound better, other than one scenario, for which my reasoning was somewhat flawed. Now, it seems that the 4308 will sound better in any scenario, if it has the upgrade, and certainly if Audyssey is not used at all.

I thank you for your deeper explanation of DEQ. (which further validates my reasons for not using it, btw.)
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post #1069 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by garypen View Post

...I thank you for your deeper explanation of DEQ. (which further validates my reasons for not using it, btw.)

You are most welcome, and I agree that all your other points and recommendations in regards to the OP are right on. I am no expert on Audyssey (or HT in general) but the last two years have been an eye-opener for me as I upgraded the HT. I have really come to appreciate what Audyssey technology can do for us regular guys who do not have expensive amps, speakers, acoustically treated rooms, etc. Not to go all fanboy on you, but in my system MultEQXT seems to do far better than I ever did with "old school" techniques of moving speakers around and tweaking an outboard graphic or parametric equalizer (even with the "golden ears" help of a recording engineer buddy). MultEQXT measures and corrects hundreds of correction points in the frq spectrum vs 10 bands or so. It also importantly corrects in the time domain, which I cannot do manually. The effect on my kinda average speakers in my lively untreated room is an easily noticable SQ improvement. The imaging and clarity improves and overall tonal balance is fab at reference. With DEQ, I can maintain all those benefits pretty well, even as I turn the volume down, which I found initially unnerving and uncanny. I have a little hifreq hearing loss from standing too close to Fender and Marshall amps all those years (IIRC you have worked extensively in professional sound so know exactly what I mean) so I really appreciate being able to listen at -10 to -20dB below reference with full SQ. I have tried to shut it off, but now I'm addicted.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1070 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Why did you decide to replace the 4308 with a 3311, if you don't mind my asking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garypen View Post

I assume you desire some feature(s) on the 3311 that isn't available on the 4308. If you have the budget, and the patience, perhaps you should wait for the 4311.

Guys - thanks for the info. I purchased the 3311 for a few reasons:
  1. The main reason is size - the 4308 (and I assume the forthcoming 4311) is just plain huge. I have limited space in my cabinet.
  2. I wanted the web control and built in pandora. I use the 2nd zone a lot for outdoor speakers so being able to use an iPod Touch to control the receiver is very appealing (hope it works well!).
  3. 3D & 1.4a - I recently purchased a Samsung 3D Plasma (PN63C8000) and wanted to have the 1.4 switching and 3D passthrough - although 3D seems to work find through the 1.3 switching of the 4308.
  4. Finally, depreciation. The 4308 seems to be going for around $750 on eBay these days. Hope I can get around that which makes the delta between it and the 3311 about $100.

I'm going to give a listen to the 3311 when I get it and if I don't like it either return it or sell it on ebay. I'll see about the 4311. When is it expected to be out? Any details on what it will have vs the 3311 or early 43xx series?

-Steve
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post #1071 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 09:25 AM
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the 4311 will actually be a bit smaller than your 4308... Denon kind of monkeyed with their numbering scheme so the real equivalent in size/heft to your 4308 is actually now the 48xx series. The 43xx took the place of the 3808 from your year.

The 3311 is probably a couple of inches shallower but in other respects should have the same dimensions as the 4311.

The main additions of the 4311 vs the 3311 (most of this inferred as the 4311 specs haven't been released):

1. 9 amp channels vs 7
2. the newest multEQ XT 32 room correction (32 times the filter resolution of XT)
3. DenonLink4 (if you have a high-end Denon universal player)
4. heavier, better amps and power supply
5. AL24+ on all channels instead just the front 2
6. probably some other audiophile doo-dads like better DAC's and whatnot

Please do report back with your impressions of the 3311 vs 4308. While the 4308 is clearly bigger, heavier, and has better components, if you aren't typically listening at massive volumes you may not notice much SQ difference. Let us know

On a side note, if your 4308 is network connected I thought you already could control things via the web, right? Can't you just enter in the IP address of the AVR into the browser on your iPhone? I know for sure people do that with 3808 models...

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post #1072 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The main additions of the 4311 vs the 3311 (most of this inferred as the 4311 specs haven't been released):

1. 9 amp channels vs 7
2. the newest multEQ XT 32 room correction (32 times the filter resolution of XT)
3. DenonLink4 (if you have a high-end Denon universal player)
4. heavier, better amps and power supply
5. AL24+ on all channels instead just the front 2
6. probably some other audiophile doo-dads like better DAC's and whatnot

Pay close attention to items #4 and 5, especially 4.
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post #1073 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 09:42 AM
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What's the down low on AL24+. I did some googling on it yesterday and I guess it's a sound processor. The sites I found didn't give it much weight, but I only spent about an hour reading one very technical site.

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post #1074 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post

What's the down low on AL24+...

Ya got me. My limited (and possibly incorrect understanding, based on correspondence with Denon CS) is that this additional processing is applied only to PCM signals input into the AVR. I was told that bitstream and DSD content decoded in the AVR (even if converted to PCM for Audyssey processing) does not need or get this treatment.
From the 2809 and 3311 OM:

"DENON has further developed its proprietary AL24 Processing, an analog waveform reproduction technology, to support the 192-kHz
sampling frequency. AL24 Processing Plus, thoroughly suppresses quantization noise associated with D/A conversion of LPCM signals to
reproduce the low-level signals with optimum clarity that will bring out all the delicate nuances of the music."

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1075 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 10:30 AM
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AL24 is a digital "interpolation" processing, the idea being to "smooth" the digital PCM signal before going to the DAC's so you get a "cleaner" analog waveform. It only works on PCM input signals; in my experience, it makes PCM audio sound a little "airier" and more detailed.

the original AL24 was a way to expand bit-depth from 16-bit to 24-bit. It doesn't change the sample frequency. So, for example, a 16-bit/44.1kHz PCM signal from your digitally connected CD player would be "expanded" to 24/44.1 before going to the DAC's.

AL24+ is the same thing, but adds support for the higher sample rates (192kHz) found on hi-rez audio (like SACD). So it can take a 16/192 signal and expand to 24/192. The original AL24 only works with up to 96kHz PCM inputs signals.

Advanced AL24 (found in the highest end products) also expands the sample frequency to 192kHz of any PCM audio input. So it would take a 16/44.1 signal from a CD and convert it to 24/192 before going to the DAC. Since the DAC's on these units are 24/192 as well, the theory is that the processing job of the DAC is easier (the signal has already been matched up to inherent processing of the DAC) and you get a cleaner, more detailed analog output as a result.

It's the same thing in principle as adding an external "oversampling DAC". You dedicate some high end processing to cleaning up the digital PCM signal before converting back to analog, and the resultant analog waveform should be theoretically be smoother, cleaner and more "faithful" to the original.

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post #1076 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 10:54 AM
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@SoundofMind & Batpig

Thanks for the info.

Does anyone know if the IPOD sends PCM when connected via the USB Port?

Panny PZ800U - Denon 3311CI - JBL CS6100BG 5.1 - Sony DVPCX995V 400-Disc DVD Player - Sony BDP-S5100-3D - HTC One (Used to Play Music via my 3311CI)

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post #1077 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 11:05 AM
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yes, I would assume so. pretty much any 2-ch audio will be PCM

can any 3311 users verify that the AL24 light activates when playing iTunes music from the USB port?

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post #1078 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 01:14 PM
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I would like to hook up a pair of small speakers in the kitchen which is one floor above where the 3311 will sit, a cable run of 15-20' at most.

Can I just wire the speakers up to zone-2 and be done with it or do I need a separate amp for this?

Would this effect anything else about the receiver like losing surround channels?

Thanks.
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post #1079 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 01:20 PM
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Yes, using the on board speaker posts will cause you to lose your rear surround speakers. Keep in mind though that Zone 2 is limited to analog or PCM 2.0. If you want to pass any audio (including HDMI) and you don't need an independent source from the main zone, you could also set up the speaker posts as Front B.

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post #1080 of 10489 Old 07-23-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

...although if you ever played A+B at the same time, the impedance of all (4) speakers Front A and Front B would drop by 1/2 (ie. become 4 ohm) with this setup.

Correct as usual, jd, but we should caution that this simple formula applies only to 2 speakers of equal resistance (2 8 Ohm speakers in parallel = 4 Ohms). The result of wiring in parallel is always lower than the lowest individual speaker and the math becomes complicated when the speakers are not equal:
R total = 1/(1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 + )
4 Ohm speakers should never be used in this way as an 8 and a 4 = 2.67 Ohms->Protection circuit shutdown!

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