"Official" Pioneer Elite SC-37 - Page 13 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 02:35 PM
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again, my friend...

read the manual... you'll see that "virtual height" isn't what you are assuming it is...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #362 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

The issue is how do you power 9 speakers through this receiver with the use of a 2-channel amplifier. There is no sound format that shows 9.1

I will take some time to look at the 37/35 manual and ponder the dilemma

Even tho I'm a SC-09 owner, I have had an interest in all the SC models & read thru the manuals. I admit not being up on the 37 yet since I don't plan on getting one but I'll check it out.

The fact that no one has been able to accomplish 9.1 at the same time kind of points to a conclusion....

Early adopters of the SC-09 when it 1st came out were stumped at seeing Cannot Select when trying to use the video processor on HDMI inputs. Pioneer sure didn't advertise that they bypassed the proc on HDMI - in fact, their specs & cut sheet kind of implied that you could scale HDMI (like Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha), but you can't!!!

Pioneer phone support even said no.....and sure 'nuff, in the manual, in fine print, was a statement that the video converter was for analog only And it's been that way for every model until the 37.

Sometimes, fine print in the manual in Pioneer-speak is the truth. They may NOT want to clearly say what is implied, because, like with the video proc & HDMI, it might cost them sales if they advertised that you can't really get 9.1 on a $2K receiver when Onkyo & Denon are doing it

This is one reason I'm losing interest in Pioneer....been disappointed several times too many seeing new models come out over the years lacking "something". Also, thinking I was getting something I didn't get....I got over it because as a package, the SC-09 is truly amazing!!

But....I can say the ONE Pioneer receiver I had absolutely NO disappointment in was their VSX-59TXi. A true powerhouse flagship that had no shortcomings, nothing that didn't live up to its advertised features & performance.

I have no regrets replacing the 59txi with the SC-09, but I did have a bad taste when I discovered a few shortcomings compared to what their marketing blurbs implied & even a few things the 59 had....like Cannot Select issue, can't add PLIIx over DTS-MA, can't use the B Speakers set up as 2nd pair of surrounds with pure analog direct on the multichannel inputs & no OSD (which a 5yr previous model did)....you get the picture....a few disappointments. For a $2K receiver, they're all excusable, but for a $7K receiver, they're not

Steve
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post #363 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 03:04 PM
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off topic, but steve, you are beginning to peel back the onion (so to speak) of why i sold my susano...

for less money out of pocket, i have a far more flexible system, that for my usage, with my equipment, in my room is sonically equal to the susano... edit: although i can't lie and say i don't miss the lcd...

on topic... geez... someone out there has got to have one... if you do have one and want to test out a few things so we can get to the bottom of this, speak up... steve and/or i will spell out the test procedures for you to step through...

i want to know the answer to this, and previous experience (too many times) shows that if we don't figure it out ourselves, we'll never know...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #364 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 03:58 PM
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Well Pioneer didn't want to answer my other question on email so here is how the conversation went. Another CSR reply so take it for what it is worth

In regards to the RF adaptor -- this will NOT be sold separately. It comes with the SC-37 and that is it. Now I asked why is the SC-35 advertised as RF READY then. He said it is RF ready but you will never be able to buy the adaptor as a standalone item. Last minute change.......

Sound modes: He stated that height means you cannot use the rear surrounds (which is in line with what is listed here). He said you cannot get true 9.1 (discrete channels) even with a 9.1 source using this receiver and an amplifier.

He did state that you can get 9.1 copying the rear speakers into speaker 8 and 9 if you use an amplifier

He agreed that the manual is wrong / misleading

EDIT: I wanted to add that I still don't think I am reading things into the manual. The CSR agreed -- 9.1 refers to a system that can get discrete sound through 9 speakers. The manual states that you can setup a 9.1 system with this receiver and you can in fact not. It is not a 9.1 system - it is 9 speakers. This is different. Intentions that didn't end up being done or what led to this doesn't matter. As issued it is misleading. You can argue anyway you want if it is a blatant lie but that doesn't change the fact that it is misleading.
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post #365 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 04:48 PM
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I'd bet you can go to the Pioneeer parts site and order the RF adapter... For a hefty markup, natch. http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #366 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 05:56 PM
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Personally, I think it's sad to see the once-mighty Pioneer AVR line cave into popular demand for all of this ancillary gadgetry like extra heights and rear surrounds instead of concentrating on high quality components. I'm running a 5.1 ch system with my SC-09 and it's beyond enveloping. It seems like cems are pushing these features because they have nothing concrete to offer in the way of "meat and potatoes." We'll see if this strategy works out for Pio and the other cems but for me I'd rather see better processing and room EQ in 5.1 rather than more matrixed channels. Of course the more faux channels you offer, the more speakers you sell.

Chris
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post #367 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

What if the 37 drove the back rear speakers and the amp the height? Amplifier through 9.1 pre-out and height speakers to that amplifier

Well I figured this probably would not work, but I tried anyway and sadly it did not.
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post #368 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

Personally, I think it's sad to see the once-mighty Pioneer AVR line cave into popular demand for all of this ancillary gadgetry like extra heights and rear surrounds instead of concentrating on high quality components. I'm running a 5.1 ch system with my SC-09 and it's beyond enveloping. It seems like cems are pushing these features because they have nothing concrete to offer in the way of "meat and potatoes." We'll see if this strategy works out for Pio and the other cems but for me I'd rather see better processing and room EQ in 5.1 rather than more matrixed channels. Of course the more faux channels you offer, the more speakers you sell.

Chris

To a point I agree with you, but I haven't heard a height system setup so I can't say that I agree on this point. So you didn't think a 5.1 plus height setup added anything?

I am sure you must have heard it since you dismiss it

Martinefski - thanks for reporting back. Did you try any other mode to get sound out of each speaker? Such as THX Ultra mode, advanced surround mode? Just curios if any of those would do anything
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post #369 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinefski View Post

Well I figured this probably would not work, but I tried anyway and sadly it did not.

I owe you an apology. You are right, no 9 out on a 7.1 material. I have been playing with it this afternoon and after reading the other posts, there is no real 9.1 audio. All you can do is have IIz and in the Audio Parameter menu ask for VS (SB). My room is over 6000 cu ft with cathedral ceiling and the center is 14 ft up. Walls are 8 ft so the Heights IIz work fine for me as it really fills the room. Can't use the Wides as my front stage is already at 14 ft. I got rid of my Integra DHC 9.9 with Po, Audyssey Sub EQ and the Installer Pro Kit for Pioneer. I didn't like the flat EQ that Audyssey Pro delivered and to my hearing it was too sterile sounding. Pioneer sounds richer and more believable for me. Looking at the info on front wides and heights in Dolby, Audyssey is working on a 11.2 system. I wonder who will manufacture a Receiver or Prepare for that software. If it drives all the speakers, then that would be the HT go to for those with the $$$$.

Bill
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post #370 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I owe you an apology. You are right, no 9 out on a 7.1 material. I have been playing with it this afternoon and after reading the other posts, there is no real 9.1 audio.

Bill

It's all good, I was really hoping I was the one who was wrong
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post #371 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post


Martinefski - thanks for reporting back. Did you try any other mode to get sound out of each speaker? Such as THX Ultra mode, advanced surround mode? Just curios if any of those would do anything

I think I tried everything even the fake surround formats or whatever those lame advanced surround formats are....lol
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post #372 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 07:04 PM
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@bill... thanks for trying it out... at least we know now that what the manual is telling us is what is really happening...

@mhdiab... i have no desire to "argue", as it's pointless... all i want is to know what is really happening... if you want to cogitate over what you think it should do, vs. what it does, have at it...

here's my skin in the game (since it's safe to say i won't acquire one of these, even i can't change out equipment this fast ).... after watching people debate it for several days, my curiosity was finally piqued enough today to read the manual and see what it said... maybe it's because i have the secret decoder ring, but it's obvious when reading the manual what the avr will (and won't) do... if the avr acted in any way different than it does, then the manual would be wrong...

that's not defending pioneer for allowing you to believe something that isn't true... but if you want to persecute pioneer for that, they have to wait at the end of a very long line... as a recent example, cem's sold "hdmi avrs" that (until you read the fine print) couldn't process audio over hdmi... and the list goes on...

in either case, i'm glad bill put in the effort to try it out and see...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #373 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 07:19 PM
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Yes, in my room I really like the height speakers. When playing music it fills the room like your at a concert. Action aerial scenes it does add to it. I'mm keeping my rear surrounds in place and playing the L&R surrounds with the VB on. Now, has anyone got the IR with the remote to work properly. I got it set up and the light is green so I point the remote in just about any direction and the reciever gets the signal. However, I don't get any feedback showing on the remote screen what anything is doing? Maybe too much interference in the room? Any one else getting a complete feedback with their IR on the remote screen showing maybe just the volume level?

Bill
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post #374 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 07:45 PM
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Just picked up an SC-37 from the local BB this past weekend. Impressive machine.

Moving up from a VSX-47TX, awesome piece... but I needed to step up to HDMI.

Running a 5.1 setup and have been reading up on Bi-amping. I live in a townhouse, so I do not blast the system nearly as much as I would like. This will be more about quality and definition.

I am thinking of using the open 2 channel's to bi-amp the front L/R. I am feeding B&W CDM9NT's.

By no means an expert, but I have been enjoying the hobby for almost 10years now.

From my limited research, I can see no real reason not to. I have read varying levels of improvement... from little, to dramatic.

Any words of advice for, or against bi-amping in this scenario?

Thanks,


Sam
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post #375 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammajidi View Post

Just picked up an SC-37 from the local BB this past weekend. Impressive machine.

Moving up from a VSX-47TX, awesome piece... but I needed to step up to HDMI.

Running a 5.1 setup and have been reading up on Bi-amping. I live in a townhouse, so I do not blast the system nearly as much as I would like. This will be more about quality and definition.

I am thinking of using the open 2 channel's to bi-amp the front L/R. I am feeding B&W CDM9NT's.

By no means an expert, but I have been enjoying the hobby for almost 10years now.

From my limited research, I can see no real reason not to. I have read varying levels of improvement... from little, to dramatic.

Any words of advice for, or against bi-amping in this scenario?

Thanks,


Sam

It isn't gonna do nothing for you Sam sorry. There are many types of "bi-amping" and this one is useless.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #376 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 08:19 PM
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Pioneer has one of the WORST web site for support that I have ever seen. Looking for info on the IR remote that comes with the SC-37, NA DA! It shows in the maual that with the IR setup for the reciever, you should get 2-way communication showing what is going on in the screen on the remote. I set it up, the light is green on the IR sensor, nothing showing on the remote screen on what is going on.

Bill
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post #377 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

To a point I agree with you, but I haven't heard a height system setup so I can't say that I agree on this point. So you didn't think a 5.1 plus height setup added anything?

I am sure you must have heard it since you dismiss it.

Yes, I've heard it and no, in my opinion matrixed "extra" channels did not impress me. To be fair, I probably wouldn't care very much about more discreet channels given my setup. It all comes off like some kind of artificial conjuring trick IMO. Different strokes for different folks. My room is small and I'm not a gamer so music is often run 2.1 and film in 5.1.

If I was looking at the 37 I'd be more interested in improvements in processing power and advanced MCACC. Bsoko is not the first one to ditch Audyssey for something else more to their liking. For me, I am happy with the SC-09 until someone comes out with a fully implemented and tweakable Trinnov-based pre-pro. You listening Outlaw??

Chris
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post #378 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 08:34 PM
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Bill RF gives two way. Have you setup the RF to serial connection? The IR blaster will not give 2 way. I thought this was pretty well explained in the manual.

Chris - my only goal was to find out what the receiver is capable of. I have contemplated a 9.1 setup so this was a biggie for me

With that said advertisement (spec sheet and manual) that can be misleading is equal to false advertising. Splitting hairs is specifically not accepted by the FTC. Pioneer misleads the consumer here. Sure they are not the only one butthat doesn't matter.

Thanks for testing and confirming no 9.1. Much appreciated
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post #379 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Pioneer has one of the WORST web site for support that I have ever seen. Looking for info on the IR remote that comes with the SC-37, NA DA! It shows in the maual that with the IR setup for the reciever, you should get 2-way communication showing what is going on in the screen on the remote. I set it up, the light is green on the IR sensor, nothing showing on the remote screen on what is going on.

Bill


Read the manual.

It clearly spells out the procedure for enabling the RF mode on the remote starting on page 91..

First you need to switch on RF on the SC37 from the Home>System Setup>RF Remote Setup.

Turn RF On

Next Push the button on the RF adaptor.

Then HOLD Multi Operation followed by Video Parameters on the remote while the RF module is flashing red. Then press Enter on the remote which should pair the remote to the Adaptor.

Then you need to set the remote to RF mode. HOLD Multi Operation followed by Home Menu.. press the direction pad up or down until you see IR/RF select. Press Enter once and make sure you are on Receiver Main, press Enter.. then select RF Mode (direction pad up or down).. hit enter again....

All done..

All these answers are in the manual, which is easily downloaded from the product page for the SC 37 under Documentation.

I recommend to everyone you download it onto your computer.. it is a searchable PDF.


And the RF remote is really cool... it has a great white text/blackish gray background and pretty much mimics the front panel display of the SC37... it tells you codec info (including dialog norm), etc... and you can actually navigate the menus using it.. really, really great job Pioneer.. finally!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnipz View Post

What software can I view the .MCAAC file saved on my USB stick?

As a side note to an earlier question by jnipz, if you have the PDF and go to page 40, the web address for the MCACC software is actually a clickable link (lower right bottom paragraph) which will open your browser to the page where you can down load the MCACC 2.2 software (use the SC-27 link.)

For those looking for it, here is the link:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...Custom+Install

And the link to the download page for the MCACC 2.2 software..

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eivers.Default
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post #380 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I owe you an apology. You are right, no 9 out on a 7.1 material. I have been playing with it this afternoon and after reading the other posts, there is no real 9.1 audio. All you can do is have IIz and in the Audio Parameter menu ask for VS (SB). My room is over 6000 cu ft with cathedral ceiling and the center is 14 ft up. Walls are 8 ft so the Heights IIz work fine for me as it really fills the room. Can't use the Wides as my front stage is already at 14 ft. I got rid of my Integra DHC 9.9 with Po, Audyssey Sub EQ and the Installer Pro Kit for Pioneer. I didn't like the flat EQ that Audyssey Pro delivered and to my hearing it was too sterile sounding. Pioneer sounds richer and more believable for me. Looking at the info on front wides and heights in Dolby, Audyssey is working on a 11.2 system. I wonder who will manufacture a Receiver or Prepare for that software. If it drives all the speakers, then that would be the HT go to for those with the $$$$.

Bill

the denon 4810 can already do this. Run 11.2 with 9.2 internal amps and a external 2 channel power amp.

In search of video bliss...
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post #381 of 4555 Old 08-04-2010, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

the denon 4810 can already do this. Run 11.2 with 9.2 internal amps and a external 2 channel power amp.

Nice, however not for me as I really don't care for Audyssey. The SQ is too flat and Pro has the fattest sub EQ I've ever heard. I like MCACC!

Bill
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post #382 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

With that said advertisement (spec sheet and manual) that can be misleading is equal to false advertising. Splitting hairs is specifically not accepted by the FTC. Pioneer misleads the consumer here. Sure they are not the only one butthat doesn't matter.

Actually, I went and read the brochure, the manual (yes, I actually RTFM) and read the web site. I never got the impression they were advertising it as anything other than a 7.1 machine. After all, right there in the title it says "7.1" everywhere, in bold type, and says almost nothing about 9.1.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but I feel as if this thread overstates Pioneer's claims.

Is this a case of you wanting to believe there was more there than there actually was?
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post #383 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 12:58 AM
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FilmMixer - followed the RF instructions that you posted and it worked. NIce, big improvement.

Thanx, Bill
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post #384 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 03:04 AM
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I was considering upgrading from the 94 to the sc 37 to have an active 9.1 setup. Since the 9.1setup isn't discrete I think I'm going to stick with my 94. Sort of a bummer to me I was looking forward to height channels. In the past I had a couple of yamaha's flagship models which used presence speakers in 5.1 and 6.1 discrete systems. Maybe I should also wait for the dts variation of IIz. I did enjoy the effect of the yamaha presence speakers
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post #385 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrod2750 View Post

I was considering upgrading from the 94 to the sc 37 to have an active 9.1 setup. Since the 9.1setup isn't discrete I think I'm going to stick with my 94. Sort of a bummer to me I was looking forward to height channels. In the past I had a couple of yamaha's flagship models which used presence speakers in 5.1 and 6.1 discrete systems. Maybe I should also wait for the dts variation of IIz. I did enjoy the effect of the yamaha presence speakers

I would agree with your decision, unfortunately
Or go with the SC-27 instead.

Steve
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post #386 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Lag View Post

Actually, I went and read the brochure, the manual (yes, I actually RTFM) and read the web site. I never got the impression they were advertising it as anything other than a 7.1 machine. After all, right there in the title it says "7.1" everywhere, in bold type, and says almost nothing about 9.1.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but I feel as if this thread overstates Pioneer's claims.

Is this a case of you wanting to believe there was more there than there actually was?

Actually most of us that had any issue thinking this AVR supported 9.1 was because we RTFM as you put it. I myself did not even think about trying a 9.1 setup until I read the manual. Granted there were several red herrings through out the manual that could have tipped us off and a couple times I told myself something is not right here. But after looking at page 22 speaker setup there is noway any reasonable person would have came away thinking this AVR was not capable of 9.1. I don't think you or anybody else who is saying this manual was not at all misleading in this regard are being completely honest with us or yourself. Especially if you are saying after reading that page you did not think 9.1 was possible or implied.

Seriously, looking at speaker option A and it listing all 9.1 speakers in that setup nothing would give you or anybody else the indication that the rear surrounds would be disabled if you were using the front height speakers or that the front heights would not play if the rear surrounds were.

My guess is you never had any intent on setting up a 9.1 system and therefore never gave it another thought and now after some of us early adopters vetted out that it can't, you are acting like is was super obvious it did not.

The fact is the manual is misleading, maybe not legally lying but it is misleading.

Like I have said before this is a really nice receiver I am glad I bought it.
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post #387 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 05:00 AM
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Without reading thru the posts, has anyone actually tried using a 2 ch amp with the preamp outputs on the rears & normal "9.1" speaker setting? And without any doubt confirm that it doesn't work?

I'm reserving my next thoughts until seeing some posts on this.

Steve
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post #388 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Without reading thru the posts, has anyone actually tried using a 2 ch amp with the preamp outputs on the rears & normal "9.1" speaker setting? And without any doubt confirm that it doesn't work?

I'm reserving my next thoughts until seeing some posts on this.

Yes, I did as well as a two channel amp on just the front height.

Edit: Well I guess that depends on what you mean by normal 9.1 speaker setting?
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post #389 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 06:10 AM
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^^
Thanks. I think that's confirms my own conclusions on these new models comparing what they do & don't do to previous SC models.

My intention is not to offend anyone. If someone is new to the SC Ice line, they're worthy of consideration. That said & I say this as an admitted Pioneer fanboy....

For the 1st time as a Pioneer owner, I don't see these new receivers as any "upgrade" over the previous SC models.

Unless you're willing to trade rears for heights/wides & make some other trade-offs.....

For $2100 retail, the upcoming Onkyo NR3008, with Reon video processor & true 9.2, true OSD, 7 HDMI inputs, still has SVideo, looks to me like a better value. And for $2700, the NR5008 hands down wins. I'm not an Onkyo fan at all, but I'd be pretty disappointed that after waiting this long for PLIIz, Pioneer is still 1 yr behind what the competition has in 2010.

To my eyes, the SC-37 looks very similar in feature set to last year's Denon 4310, a 1 yr old model that retailed for $200 less!

I'm not trying to talk anyone OUT of buying but you **might** want to look at options before blind buy deciding.

More in next post if anyone's interested

my 2c

Steve
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post #390 of 4555 Old 08-05-2010, 06:22 AM
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Here's why -

I've read thru the manual.

IMO the way the manual is written on speaker use is misleading, no question. But they also clearly refer to it as a 7.1 AVR in their advertising, so buyer beware....

Unfortunately, the way the manual is written, you almost have to use it hands-on to know for sure how it works. By that time it's too late to find out (surprise) this receiver CAN'T be set up for 9.1 playback after the owner has spent the money. Unacceptable!!

By dropping in PLIIz processing but leaving the # of channels unchanged from the previous models, Pioneer is catching up to where their competition was 1 yr ago!

IMO that's unacceptable for a new late-2010 near-flagship model & that's where I part company with Pioneer! They are simply falling behind.

On the + side, you do get 1.4, Iphone, Bluetooth, RF control, gain 1 HDMI port (but lose 2 opticals) & heights/wides. The good news is that you also get to re-cycle those unused rear speakers

On the - side, you lose a few legacy connections that may be needed for older gear & you can never have a 9.1 system with this AVR.

The SC Ice line still offers great amp performance & has a lot going for it, but....be aware of the SC-37's limitations! There are alternatives that are true 9.1 & may be a better value.

For me, any + are outweighed by the - of what Pioneer left out. If I was in the market to upgrade from an SC-27/07, the 37 would not be my 1st choice, because of what you folks discovered

Again, I hope to not offend anyone here who has bought one
That is not my intention.....some of you know I try to be objective as I can. Even with my own pride & joy SC09. I paid a handsome sum for it new & I'll freely discuss its limitations and quirks - all gear has 'em.

Steve
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