"Official" Pioneer Elite SC-37 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dogone View Post

I have an Oppo blu-ray that worked as you say with my older SC-25, but now that I have the newer SC-37 this doesn't work any more...I also have one of the newer Panasonic 350 players...I tried that one and it still won't matrix out the rears unless I use THX or NEO6. Do you have the SC-37?

Yes I do have an SC-37.

Is there a chance that your players settings went to a default mode once you changed your AVR?

When I get a chance tonight I will change modes on my receiver to see if anything in particular turns off the rears while playing a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track. To me it's either the players settings or a seemingly unrelated setting in your AVR. The good news is this AVR is capable of doing what you want.

Since we both have the same equipment (the Panasonic and AVR) it should be fairly easy to compare setting on both units to figure out something here.
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post #722 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Martinefski View Post

I will change modes on my receiver to see if anything in particular turns off the rears while playing a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track.

Direct or Pure Direct

If u still hear sound from the rears, what you are hearing is NOT the receiver adding anything. It'll be duplicated sounds from the side surrounds,

Previous Panasonic models were KNOWN to be some that duplicated. Panasonic may have fixed that in the model you & dogone own so it'll be interesting if see what you find out......

Steve
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post #723 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 07:12 AM
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Bsoko2 did you cycle thru the Auto ALC/Direct button until it shows auto surround on the receiver display?

The first time I tried that button it wasn't showing auto surround on the receiver display.

If it is showing ALC or Direct or Pure Direct on the receiver display it won't give you surrounds to the rear speakers with the Sony BDP-CX960.

I made that mistake the first time I tried that button.

I agree you can use Dolby IIx or DTS-NEO6 using the standard button also to get matrixed rear speakers.
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post #724 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 07:55 AM
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Hi guys,

I've had my 37 for almost a week now and have read through all 700+ posts on this thread...

Some pretty good stuff here for me being a noob and all with this AVR. As a matter of fact this is my first high end Pioneer AVR that I've ever owned. I can attest to the sound quality of this beast! Currently I've got a 5.1 Setup running all Infinity Primus speakers. Sound is great.

L/R - P362's
C - PC350
SR/SL - P162's
SW - PS210

I have yet to run the MCACC and will be doing so tomorrow afternoon to see what the "before and after" sounds like.

1. Is there anything I should be looking out for while doing this. I've never used MCACC before. Any pointers?

2. I've read that you cannot get the volume from the receiver to display on the TV. Currently I have a Samsung LNT4665F display and every so often when I am moving the volume up or down it displays a "volume" control on the TV. The picture shows the volume control and to the right of this it says "Receiver". Here's the weird thing here the actual read out of the "volume" does not match what is output in db on the readout on the front panel display on the receiver. What's going on with that?

3. I've got DirecTV as my content for HD. I set up the box to display in Dolby Digital which is the highest it will output from DirecTV. I noticed that every so often the audio will cut out and cut right back in and when it does it dispalys "DIAL NORM -4" on the front panel read out. Why is this happening?

---> I think I may have resolved this by making the Signal Selection from "AUTO" to "HDMI"

I have yet to hear the audio cut out since I made this selection but I will post back if it continues to happen. Also what is "DIAL NORM -4"?
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post #725 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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^^
I get that message too. I have no clue. Steve/Chris any thoughts?
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post #726 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 08:05 AM
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By the way the "Signal Selection" button is the button underneath the remote slide cover on the bottom on the upper left hand corner.
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post #727 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core2Romano View Post

2. I've read that you cannot get the volume from the receiver to display on the TV. Currently I have a Samsung LNT4665F display and every so often when I am moving the volume up or down it displays a "volume" control on the TV. The picture shows the volume control and to the right of this it says "Receiver". Here's the weird thing here the actual read out of the "volume" does not match what is output in db on the readout on the front panel display on the receiver. What's going on with that?

3. dispalys "DIAL NORM -4" on the front panel read out. Why is this happening?

---

1. MCACC - follow the instructions in the manual. Default setting for automatic MCACC is Symmetry. You can do custom settings and do all 3, Symmetry, Front Aligned, All Channels Adjust.

Put mic at your listening position, preferably on a tripod or on the seat back so it's near where your head will be. Point it directly up towards the ceiling, not tilted forward or backwards, base of mic parallel to the floor

2. Surprise! You just might have a TV display that will show on-screen display from the receiver. Used to be pretty much limited to Pioneer Kuros. It works using the control link within all HDMI systems. Pioneer used to call it KuroLink, but now they just call it Control. Pages 72-73 in the manual describe what it does, how to set it up. On pg 73, they tell you how to turn it on & off. PQLS also works using it, so if you decide to turn it completely off, you'll not have PQLS jitter control with compatible players. If you don't want the OSD display but still want PQLS, your TV may have a setting to turn it off at the TV end.

3. Dial Norm - standard to see with all Dolby/DTS tracks. When you see it, it means the dialog is recorded on the low side on that media, and it's raising it to a standard level specified by Dolby & DTS. Nothing new and completely normal to see it on occasion.

Steve
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post #728 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

+2

If the video converter in the SC-37 is OFF, then HDMI video should be a straight pass-thru with no changes.

Since the SC-37 now allows the video converter to be used with HDMI, it has its own video parameter settings, like

-black level
-contrast
-hue
-brightness
-detail
-various noise reduction settings

Does anyone see a pattern?

If the video converter is ON with an HDMI input, ANY or ALL of these settings would effect the final picture. That's why Pioneer chose to not do this in previous models.

HINT to SC-37 owners - on page 78 of your manual it clearly states:

"V. CONV
(Digital Video
Conversion)

Converts video signals for output
from the MONITOR OUT jacks
(including HDMI OUT connector)
for all video types (see page 27).

ON (bold font means it's the default setting)
OFF"

And in a footnote:
"If the video picture deteriorates when this settings is switched ON,
switch it OFF."

So if the poster noticing "improved" color had a calibrated display, he's just messed up his calibration by not understanding the importance of learning the features and default settings in his SC-37 before changing his display. Hopefully, he wrote down the TV's original settings....

This is the most likely explanation for what he observed in his review post.

Glad to help

I knew this was the reason.

I don't know why pioneer changed it anyway. Leave the HDMI signal alone!

home theater addict
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post #729 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 08:58 AM
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Steve

Thanks for the response. My question on #3 is why was I getting short audio cut outs. This would happen during a commercial in the middle of watching a tv show etc...

I switched the Signal Sel option to HDMI instead of Auto and it seems to have gone away. Although it was random in nature before so Im not sure if its completely gone. It was very consistent in the fact that it would happen at least 5 or 6 times in a night of watching TV. If it does not happen at all tonight then I'm fairly certain that option resolved my issues with the audio getting cut out.

I will let everyone know here tonight my findings.
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post #730 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:01 AM
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Also is this going to be the official 35/37 thread?

We should probably change the title and start updating the first post with new information. Like very important (And dumb) HDMI VC that ss9001 pointed out.

05/07 thread is legendary.

home theater addict
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post #731 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:04 AM
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3. Dial Norm - standard to see with all Dolby/DTS tracks. When you see it, it means the dialog is recorded on the low side on that media, and it's raising it to a standard level specified by Dolby & DTS. Nothing new and completely normal to see it on occasion.

What do you mean its recorded on the low side on that media? So your trying to say my receiver is compensating for the low Dolby volume?
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post #732 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core2Romano View Post

3. Dial Norm - standard to see with all Dolby/DTS tracks. When you see it, it means the dialog is recorded on the low side on that media, and it's raising it to a standard level specified by Dolby & DTS. Nothing new and completely normal to see it on occasion.

What do you mean its recorded on the low side on that media? So your trying to say my receiver is compensating for the low Dolby volume?

yes
It's matching what it sees on the disc to dolby & dts's standard levels and gives it a bump or cut if needed. That may not be completely technically accurate, but it gives you a good idea of what it's doing.

Steve
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post #733 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Also is this going to be the official 35/37 thread?

We should probably change the title and start updating the first post with new information. Like very important (And dumb) HDMI VC that ss9001 pointed out.

05/07 thread is legendary.

It's the "Official" 37 thread
I guess you could talk about the 35 if you really had too
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post #734 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

What do you mean its recorded on the low side on that media? So your trying to say my receiver is compensating for the low Dolby volume?


Alrighty, then. Is this an option that an end user can manually change or is this something that the receiver automatically handles by itself? Also I've seen it go from -4 to -6 if its compensating for volume levels shouldn't it be a setting of for instance 4 or 6 instead of a negative number?
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post #735 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core2Romano View Post

Alrighty, then. Is this an option that an end user can manually change or is this something that the receiver automatically handles by itself? Also I've seen it go from -4 to -6 if its compensating for volume levels shouldn't it be a setting of for instance 4 or 6 instead of a negative number?

automatic and nothing users can change

Depends on how it's recorded on the disc or broadcast from cable/sat provider. Some times it may be + and sometimes -

Steve
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post #736 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:22 AM
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10-4 thanks Steve.

One last question on the "Signal Sel" option button on the remote. FYI its located under the slide cover on the remote. What exactly does this do? I changed it from Auto to HDMI and I have yet to hear any audio drop outs that I was experiencing before.
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post #737 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:31 AM
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^^^

signal select allows you to choose a different set of audio jacks (on the same input) to get the sound from... edit: i should give an example. say you have a device that doesn't have hdmi, but has dvi (like my mac mini)... i use a dvi to hdmi cable to connect for the video, and a toslink cable to connect the audio... i then tell the avr (by using the signal select button) "get the audio from the toslink, regardless of what is on the hdmi"....

however, your post just lit up a BIG lightbulb over my head...

to everyone who is having audio dropout issues (d* users seem to have it worse)... go set your default to hdmi like core2 did... let's see if there's a pattern here...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #738 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:36 AM
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Right, so according to the manual the Signal Sel option lets you choose the input signal. By default its set to AUTO which again - according to the manual states: The receiver selects the first available signal in the following order -> HDMI, Digital, Analog.

So if thats the case then it should select HDMI for me as thats all I'm using for connections at the moment.

Setting it to directly HDMI instead of AUTO seems to have resolved any sort of drop outs audio wise.

I have not fully confirmed this as I will need to watch more TV later tonight when I get home. If I do not hear any drop outs then this for sure fixed it.
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post #739 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:48 AM
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^^^

good deal! thanks for trying it out and testing it for us...

kudos to you... your little experiment may help out a LOT of people...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #740 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I knew this was the reason.

I don't know why pioneer changed it anyway. Leave the HDMI signal alone!

I completely agree. The default setting for the video converter should have been Off. Let the owner decide to manually turn it on for an input if desired. The 1st rule should be "Do No Harm"!

The way it's implemented, inexperienced owners are going to end up with altered video quality on displays, not cool if they've paid $300-500 for a calibration and start messing with the TV settings.

Giving people the option to use it on HDMI is a good thing. But it shouldn't be turned on by default. A stupid move by Pioneer!

It'd be a good idea for new owners to call Pioneer on this and complain about it. It is in the manual, but as we all know, how many inexperienced new owners read the manual & completely understand it before starting to use the gear?

Steve
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post #741 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core2Romano View Post

If I do not hear any drop outs then this for sure fixed it.

core,

Good job trying out something & see if it works
Congratulations! Hopefully, this will work for others.

Steve
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post #742 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I completely agree. The default setting for the video converter should have been Off. Let the owner decide to manually turn it on for an input if desired. The 1st rule should be "Do No Harm"!

The way it's implemented, inexperienced owners are going to end with altered video quality on displays, not cool if they've paid $300-500 for a calibration and start messing with the TV settings.

Giving people the option to use it on HDMI is a good thing. But it shouldn't be turned on by default. A stupid move by Pioneer!

It'd be a good idea for new owners to call Pioneer on this and complain about it. It is in the manual, but as we all know, how many inexperienced new owners read the manual & completely understand it before starting to use the gear?

That is actually the first thing I noticed when after I got everything hooked up. I was like umm...the video looks like sh*t. The second thing I did was TURN OFF the vid conversion and walla! Lookin' like it was supposed to.

I agree that option should of been turned off by default and left up to the end user to ultimately decide.
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post #743 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Core2Romano View Post

That is actually the first thing I noticed when after I got everything hooked up. I was like umm...the video looks like sh*t. The second thing I did was TURN OFF the vid conversion and walla! Lookin' like it was supposed to.

I agree that option should of been turned off by default and left up to the end user to ultimately decide.

On my calibrated display, I have found no adverse degradation to the signal with video conversion on as it stands out of the box.

Even though Video Conversion is on by default, all of the processing is "bypassed." When at it's default all the receiver should be doing is up-converting resolution.

What source were you using that was looking so terrible?

I've found the solution in the SC-37 to be as good as I've seen, and I've owned receivers with the ABT 2010, 1018, Reon, Realta, Torrino, etc... the Marvell is pretty fantastic.
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post #744 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 10:31 AM
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I was using HDMI as the source from my DirecTV receiver to the AVR. I found that when I first turned it on. It just was not "right". I then turned off the Vid Conversion and it looked exactly as it was supposed to. I found that it set my resolution to 480p (out of the box) I then upped the resolution to 1080p. I then realized that its using the Marvel scaling chip. I turned off the option and everything was set to "pass through". Using the vid conversion to up-convert 1080i to 1080p just didn't look good to me so I just turned it off. Is there a way to set the up scaling to just upscale and not apply any of its video overlay options such as sharpening?
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post #745 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I've found the solution in the SC-37 to be as good as I've seen, and I've owned receivers with the ABT 2010, 1018, Reon, Realta, Torrino, etc... the Marvell is pretty fantastic.

I agree about the Qdeo's quality but I'm not sure I can agree that it can not change the end result picture quality on HDMI. What would prevent it from altering the very things that can be adjusted? Even if settings like sharpness, color, brightness, contrast are all in default middle positions, that doesn't mean they aren't altered from what's being inputted, even if its slightly. Do you have any proof that HDMI is bypassing Qdeo processing even with the Video Converter turned on? If your statement is true, then what would be the point of having the processor available to be used or not?

One person reported color changes so he changed the color on his TV. The source wouldn't matter, since (if you take these posts at face value), the only difference is there's something different (a new AVR) between the source & the display. Older Pioneers completely bypassed the video proc on HDMI, selecting the video converter was not even an option. This one allows the use of the Qdeo on HDMI so it's different.

Steve
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post #746 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Core2Romano View Post


3. I've got DirecTV as my content for HD. I set up the box to display in Dolby Digital which is the highest it will output from DirecTV. I noticed that every so often the audio will cut out and cut right back in and when it does it dispalys "DIAL NORM -4" on the front panel read out. Why is this happening?

I have yet to hear the audio cut out since I made this selection but I will post back if it continues to happen. Also what is "DIAL NORM -4"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

3. Dial Norm - standard to see with all Dolby/DTS tracks. When you see it, it means the dialog is recorded on the low side on that media, and it's raising it to a standard level specified by Dolby & DTS. Nothing new and completely normal to see it on occasion.

Dialog norm doesn't mean the dialog is recorded low... most time, it is left at the default encoder value (-27/+4 for Dolby.) And it isn't raising it to a standard level specified by either Dolby or DTS.

We've discussed this in detail in the past (won't clutter up the thread..) The value you see is the amount of attenuation being applied to the post decoded PCM stream.

Simple answer.. if you have your AVR setup and know the reference volume value for your listening, you need to raise the volume the value shown on the display (i.e. 4db in your example) to listen at the proper reference level.

Quote:


Here's the weird thing here the actual read out of the "volume" does not match what is output in db on the readout on the front panel display on the receiver. What's going on with that?

Almost all TV's use an absolute (0-100) value to display volume... some receivers give you that choice, but I don't think I've seen a THX certified AVR that doesn't use a db scale (it might actually be part of the spec that it needs to be in db because of how THX works.)
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post #747 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 11:14 AM
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FM how do you like the SQ of the SC-37? I think your opinion matters most for obvious reasons.

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post #748 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I agree about the Qdeo's quality but I'm not sure I can agree that it can not change the end result picture quality on HDMI. What would prevent it from altering the very things that can be adjusted? Even if settings like sharpness, color, brightness, contrast are all in default middle positions, that doesn't mean they aren't altered from what's being inputted, even if its slightly. Do you have any proof that HDMI is bypassing Qdeo processing even with the Video Converter turned on? If your statement is true, then what would be the point of having the processor available to be used or not?

One person reported color changes so he changed the color on his TV. The source wouldn't matter, since (if you take these posts at face value), the only difference is there's something different (a new AVR) between the source & the display. Older Pioneers completely bypassed the video proc on HDMI, selecting the video converter was not even an option. This one allows the use of the Qdeo on HDMI so it's different.

The point of having Video Conversion On with no other processing is to do up-scaling or de-interlacing.

I'm just reporting I have seen no negative effects with it on my display and with my sources.

My display was ISF calibrated, and all of my source units set to use the correct color space setting.

While it may have resulted in another user having to adjust the color settings on his set, I have not experience any kind of degradation like that. I am using analog and HDMI sources, including 480>1080 up-conversion and 1080i>1080p de-interlacing.

I can only comment on my (non measured and by eye) results to this point... since I only know my equipment, and how it has been set up, and have gone through more AVR's in the past three years than most people own in a lifetime (I think the number is 10) I am reporting what my experience has been... and that is that the SC37's video solution doesn't seem to be "mucking" up the signal when at it's default settings, and is good as any of the other solutions I've had in my system..

My report is as anecdotal as anyone else's.. until someone can run some true tests with resolution charts, gray scale, etc, we are only stating opinions, and not facts.
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post #749 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

FM how do you like the SQ of the SC-37?

My preliminary first week has been very positive.. so much so that I haven't even run MCACC yet in my crappy room... just with my manual set up and SPL, it is really great...

I've yet to listen to any of my films yet, but will do so next week when time permits...

But because of the video processing of HDMI, the fantastic remote, and some other great "fixes" I think it's definitely a step up from the SC07/27... it is sonically as good as them at this point, and I think MCACC will prove to me that it might actually be a step up (new converters, circuitry, etc being the cause..)
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post #750 of 4479 Old 08-13-2010, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Dialog norm doesn't mean the dialog is recorded low... most time, it is left at the default encoder value (-27/+4 for Dolby.) And it isn't raising it to a standard level specified by either Dolby or DTS.

So the value stated on the front panel read out is not telling me that its compensating for a higher than reference source audio in this case Dolby Digital?

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We've discussed this in detail in the past (won't clutter up the thread..) The value you see is the amount of attenuation being applied to the post decoded PCM stream.

So in my case its attenuating the volume by -4?

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Simple answer.. if you have your AVR setup and know the reference volume value for your listening, you need to raise the volume the value shown on the display (i.e. 4db in your example) to listen at the proper reference level.

How would I know what the reference level value is for my listening?

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Almost all TV's use an absolute (0-100) value to display volume... some receivers give you that choice, but I don't think I've seen a THX certified AVR that doesn't use a db scale (it might actually be part of the spec that it needs to be in db because of how THX works.)

It is for sure not showing it in db it changes the values only when I press the volume twice e.g. going from 37.5 to 38.5 then the onscreen value will change from say 40 to 41. The value does not show onscreen as db rather as a number as yous said from 0-100 so its not an exact matching of the db which is showing on the receiver.
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