New Onkyo TX-NR5008 & TX-NR3008 - Page 265 - AVS Forum
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post #7921 of 8675 Old 04-10-2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs4000 View Post
I have a suggestion -- my Polk Left/Right towers have frequency response down to 40Hz or so, so I have the cutoff at 40Hz for those two speakers, and I believe 60Hz for my center. I'm aware that the industry standard is 80Hz, nevertheless I (Rank: amateur) know better, right?

Anyway, I'm also aware that the lower frequencies take a lot of juice to amplify, and it tends to be loud, base-rich scenes that trigger the relay click. I'm guessing that the receiver has trouble powering all the speakers through such a moment, reaches an uncomfortable current, and then engages current-limiting mode (if there is such a thing).

Thoughts?
I think you are right about that . I remember having a older Teac 2 channel AVR that when I added a 2nd set of speakers that had 4 15" woofers between all 4 speakers . If I ran the the AVR just over reference on a bass heavy music passage I'd get clicks like the OP describes . I felt @ the time that the AVR was going into protection mode for milla-seconds & then clicking back on quickly . so that it sounded like one click . I felt that the AVR was at it's peak at regular levels & was entering into distortion levels by going higher in gain causing the AVR to protect it's self .

Mike

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post #7922 of 8675 Old 04-10-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs4000 View Post

I have a suggestion -- my Polk Left/Right towers have frequency response down to 40Hz or so, so I have the cutoff at 40Hz for those two speakers, and I believe 60Hz for my center. I'm aware that the industry standard is 80Hz, nevertheless I (Rank: amateur) know better, right?

Anyway, I'm also aware that the lower frequencies take a lot of juice to amplify, and it tends to be loud, base-rich scenes that trigger the relay click. I'm guessing that the receiver has trouble powering all the speakers through such a moment, reaches an uncomfortable current, and then engages current-limiting mode (if there is such a thing).

Thoughts?

Yes, you should definitely raise your crossovers a bit.... Just because your Polks can get down to 40Hz, doesn't mean they should. Regular speakers struggle at the lower frequencies and it affects how well they do with the frequencies they should be reproducing. Let the subwoofer handle the deep bass like it is designed to do and your speakers and receiver will thank you!
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post #7923 of 8675 Old 04-10-2012, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deano86 View Post

Yes, you should definitely raise your crossovers a bit.... Just because your Polks can get down to 40Hz, doesn't mean they should. Regular speakers struggle at the lower frequencies and it affects how well they do with the frequencies they should be reproducing. Let the subwoofer handle the deep bass like it is designed to do and your speakers and receiver will thank you!

+1.

Although this is slightly off topic here, there is a good description of why it makes sense to use a 80 Hz crossover in the Audyssey FAQ:

2. I often see advice to change the crossovers from what Audyssey has set to 80Hz. Why is this? Has Audyssey got it wrong'? (click here)

3. I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'? (click here)
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post #7924 of 8675 Old 04-10-2012, 05:31 PM
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Hello,
I have been using an 80hz Crossover for all channels since Dolby Digital. And while even though my Mains are rated down to 34hz and Surrounds to 43hz, and Audyssey sets both to 40hz, the first thing I do after running XT32 is change all to 80hz. I then bring out my SPL Meter to make sure each channel hits 75db's. I do prefer to set my Subwoofers to 80db's however.

Another issue of say setting your Mains to 40hz, Center to 60hz, and your Surrounds to 50hz is the issue of cascading crossovers. Also, with XT32/SubEQ HT, you do not get extra Processing Power dedicated to the Subwoofer when all are set to 80hz like you do with MultEQ XT.
Cheers,
AD

Radio Shack SPL Meter Owner
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post #7925 of 8675 Old 04-11-2012, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Hello,
I have been using an 80hz Crossover for all channels since Dolby Digital. And while even though my Mains are rated down to 34hz and Surrounds to 43hz, and Audyssey sets both to 40hz, the first thing I do after running XT32 is change all to 80hz. I then bring out my SPL Meter to make sure each channel hits 75db's. I do prefer to set my Subwoofers to 80db's however.

Another issue of say setting your Mains to 40hz, Center to 60hz, and your Surrounds to 50hz is the issue of cascading crossovers. Also, with XT32/SubEQ HT, you do not get extra Processing Power dedicated to the Subwoofer when all are set to 80hz like you do with MultEQ XT.
Cheers,
AD

All good points. Just one thing - when you double check the SPLs with your meter, do you use a test disc for the tones, or the internal test tones of your AVR? I mention this because the internal test tones bypass all processing, including Audyssey. This means that if Audyssey has had to apply boost to a fairly broad range of frequencies, this will affect the overall SPL of that channel and give a potentially misleading reading if you use the internal tones.

You might care to look at this answer in the FAQ for more info:

3. My SPL meter gives a different result from Audyssey - which is right? (click here)
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post #7926 of 8675 Old 04-11-2012, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

All good points. Just one thing - when you double check the SPLs with your meter, do you use a test disc for the tones, or the internal test tones of your AVR? I mention this because the internal test tones bypass all procesing, including Audyssey. This means that if Audyssey has had to apply boost to a fairly broad range of frequencies, this will affect the overall SPL of that channel and give a potentially misleading reading if you use the internal tones.

You might care to look at this answer in the FAQ for more info:

3. My SPL meter gives a different result from Audyssey - which is right? (click here)

But when you switch to dolby volume or THX only, it gets secrewed up again
The auto setup is the best at speaker levels and distance setting, as for EQing thats another story.
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post #7927 of 8675 Old 04-12-2012, 10:10 AM
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Why are these two options, when i use them, sounding so crappy ?

I can hear a big differents in ON and OFF and i do not mean that the sound level is going up or down, both options are effecting the high (tweeter) and low (woofer) levels also.
I use now the Audyssey EQ and the sound is great, crisp and clear sound.
As soon as i use the Dolby and Dynamic volume option the sound is dull and has no life in it. (Dolby is the wors then Audyssey)
I thought both Dolby and Audyssey volume only effected the dB levels but it seems not, its also changing the sound (negative)........

Or am i doing someting wrong ?
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post #7928 of 8675 Old 04-12-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post

Why are these two options, when i use them, sounding so crappy ?

I can hear a big differents in ON and OFF and i do not mean that the sound level is going up or down, both options are effecting the high (tweeter) and low (woofer) levels also.
I use now the Audyssey EQ and the sound is great, crisp and clear sound.
As soon as i use the Dolby and Dynamic volume option the sound is dull and has no life in it. (Dolby is the wors then Audyssey)
I thought both Dolby and Audyssey volume only effected the dB levels but it seems not, its also changing the sound (negative)........

Or am i doing someting wrong ?

I don't think, from what you say here, that you are quite understanding what the purpose of Dynamic Volume is.

Have a look at this answer in the Audyssey FAQ and see if it helps:

1. What is Dynamic Volume? (click here)
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post #7929 of 8675 Old 04-12-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think, from what you say here, that you are quite understanding what the purpose of Dynamic Volume is.

Have a look at this answer in the Audyssey FAQ and see if it helps:

1. What is Dynamic Volume? (click here)

Well, it helps but that is not for what i am looking for.
I want the receiver to adjust the dB levels between various tv channels.
Any options for this ?
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post #7930 of 8675 Old 04-12-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post

Well, it helps but that is not for what i am looking for.

I know. But now you know why it isn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post

I want the receiver to adjust the dB levels between various tv channels.
Any options for this ?

Nope - sorry. DV adjusts the loudest sound relative to the softest sound - sort of 'evens them out'. Nothing can compensate for a TV channel that transmits at one level and another than transmits at a different level. Well, there's the volume control of course

Intellivolume will even out the levels of different sources, but that isn't what you want either.
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post #7931 of 8675 Old 04-12-2012, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I know. But now you know why it isn't



Nope - sorry. DV adjusts the loudest sound relative to the softest sound - sort of 'evens them out'. Nothing can compensate for a TV channel that transmits at one level and another than transmits at a different level. Well, there's the volume control of course

Intellivolume will even out the levels of different sources, but that isn't what you want either.

Thanks for your answers.
Would be a great option if Onkyo could make an option that will deal with dB level differents, special for TV channels.
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post #7932 of 8675 Old 04-12-2012, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post

Thanks for your answers.
Would be a great option if Onkyo could make an option that will deal with dB level differents, special for TV channels.

DEQ + DV works fine for me. Raises the intelligibility of vocals for the softer channels and levels out the annoying LOUD ads. I'd forgotten how annoying the extra loud ads could be till I was watching TV at a friend's house. I've gotten so used to the effects of DV basically auto-normalizing the volume of TV programming.


Max
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post #7933 of 8675 Old 04-14-2012, 03:07 AM
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I have Dynamic Volume set to Light on all sources. Love it.
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post #7934 of 8675 Old 04-14-2012, 03:35 PM
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Took some peeps' advice and set all my speakers to 80hz regardless of how Audyssey set them up (I have B&W fronts and center, Polk surrounds).

It made no difference whatsoever. I don't have an SPL meter so maybe it could have picked up something different but using my ears that are connected to my butt-o-meter, I heard no difference.

I promptly set my fronts back to 60hz, center back to 70hz, and surrounds back to 40hz and called it a day.
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post #7935 of 8675 Old 04-14-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GalvatronType_R View Post

Took some peeps' advice and set all my speakers to 80hz regardless of how Audyssey set them up (I have B&W fronts and center, Polk surrounds).

It made no difference whatsoever. I don't have an SPL meter so maybe it could have picked up something different but using my ears that are connected to my butt-o-meter, I heard no difference.

I promptly set my fronts back to 60hz, center back to 70hz, and surrounds back to 40hz and called it a day.

Even if you can't hear an audible difference, there are still good reasons for raising the crossovers to 80 Hz:

2. I often see advice to change the crossovers from what Audyssey has set to 80Hz. Why is this? Has Audyssey got it wrong'? (click here)
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post #7936 of 8675 Old 04-14-2012, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalvatronType_R View Post

Took some peeps' advice and set all my speakers to 80hz regardless of how Audyssey set them up (I have B&W fronts and center, Polk surrounds).

It made no difference whatsoever. I don't have an SPL meter so maybe it could have picked up something different but using my ears that are connected to my butt-o-meter, I heard no difference.

I promptly set my fronts back to 60hz, center back to 70hz, and surrounds back to 40hz and called it a day.

I'm wondering which subwoofer are you using?
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post #7937 of 8675 Old 04-14-2012, 07:19 PM
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Well I've done the surround channel amp setup with the AVR running the front three. I have listened and looked for anything strange or maybe something I wouldn't like.

It's sounding great and I'm very happy with it, and I will be adding the same amp when I start to use the height speakers.
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post #7938 of 8675 Old 04-16-2012, 07:45 PM
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The configuration is working out well so far. It's seems to be a little better than I expected.

I honestly didn't want to re-run audyssey after hearing the amps connected. After re-running audyssey, they didn't seem as loud.

My front three seem to be putting out better audio, which doesn't seem right. I am hearing a little more details.

I now have the volume down(not much) but it's louder and clearer. I wasn't expecting it to be any cleaner then what it was before.

I took my time with listening, with playing some of my favorites movie scenes before adding, and afterwards.

The surrounds have a much stronger presence then before.

The amps I bought have been in production for some years, and I could not find anything written bad about them. I also didn't find any pro reviews either, but again, these are for surrounds.

The pro reviews of my Onkyo 5008 is what I am happy with, and we both know how great the AQ is with that AVR.

Honestly, I understood everything that was mentioned in the thread on this subject, and if the price of the amp were higher, it would not have made sense to go this route, but I was able to get those amps for $149 each.

At the price I paid, I saved over $400 by not buying the amp for the front stage, the amps I gotten and the AVR amp section are all pretty close in power. I'm not having to deal with an amp that is far more powerful then the amp section in the AVR, and gain matching is simple now.
Do you have any questions or thoughts with testing anything?
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post #7939 of 8675 Old 04-16-2012, 09:42 PM
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try re-setting to defaults ,
then set the cross-overs to near what the speakers spec out(that's how low the bass goes =Roll-off) as like 10 above roll-off
have all speakers set as large
set sub LFE as 120 ,
set the subs to 50% gain (you can adjust up later) .
DO NOT run Audyssey ....
enable the speakers that you have hooked up

see how you like that SQ ....

adjust center gain to what works best for voices .. after you do a listening ..
you might be surprised how well that system will sound not running Audyssey

one thing if you mains are larger than the surrounds try switch them to the external Amp & see how that sounds you can always go back .

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #7940 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

try re-setting to defaults ,
then set the cross-overs to near what the speakers spec out(that's how low the bass goes =Roll-off) as like 10 above roll-off

The manufacturer's speaker specification will have been taken in an anechoic chamber. If the OP is listening in a room, as I suspect he is (), then why would he want to ignore the effect of the room on his speakers and ignore the actual F3 that Audyssey has found? The room is the most important 'component' in the system.

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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

have all speakers set as large

If he does that he needs to realise he is bypassing all bass management and also sending nothing at all to his subwoofer other than the LFE track (the .1) which in many movies is all but non-existent.

Why would someone buy a sub and then not use it?

Also, if the bass is handled by the main speakers, they cannot be positioned for the best bass the room is capable of, as they have to be positioned for imaging, up front.

I can also pretty much guarantee, unless he has a really useless sub, that his sub will handle the low frequencies far better than his mains. That is what the sub has been designed to do. See Edit below.

Finally, remember that if he sets the speakers as Large, he is making huge demands on his AVR amplifier as it attempts to reproduce the bass frequencies at good SPLs. Given that the whole point of his discussion is to *reduce* the strain on his amps, doing something that will increase it seems odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post


set sub LFE as 120 ,

Correct. (LPF of LFE)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

set the subs to 50% gain (you can adjust up later) .
DO NOT run Audyssey ....
enable the speakers that you have hooked up

see how you like that SQ ....

adjust center gain to what works best for voices .. after you do a listening ..
you might be surprised how well that system will sound not running Audyssey

If he eliminates the electronic EQ, how will he be handling room modes etc? Does he have significant room treatments and bass traps? All rooms need some form of EQ, either with physical treatments/traps or electronically. It is not possible, unless his room is the only one in the world that is acoustically perfect, to get really good sound from an untreated room. The room is the important component in the system. More important than speakers, way more important than amps.

EDIT: I just noticed he has posted pics of his room. He has TWO SVS PB12 subs! And you are suggesting that he lets his *bookshelf* mains handle his bass????? He also has no room treatments at all and a lot of hard, reflective wall, so some form of electronic EQ is essential.
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post #7941 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 04:36 AM
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Keith get a grip .. read the post .....I SAID try it & see if it works for him ...
he said he's experimenting .... best to start with a base line & see what works up from that ...

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #7942 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Keith get a grip .. read the post .....I SAID try it & see if it works for him ...

How would it work, Mike? How would bypassing his two mighty SVS subs give him better bass? Why would anyone even consider sending all their bass to two relatively small bookshelf monitors (by setting their speakers to Large) when they have two fabulously competent subs? Why would he even want to consider it? His SVS subs can realistically dig down to below 20 Hz with authority - and they can give him very high SPLs at 20 Hz too. His monitors are specced down to 40 Hz, and that is probably very optimistic. They have a power handling of up to 100 watts and an efficiency of 90 db/1w/1m - so there is simply no way on earth they can perform anything like the PB12s in the bass area. By asking them to do so will compromise them in the mid and high frequency region where they probably excel. Sorry, Mike, but it's a total non-starter. It isn't worth experimenting with because the outcome is totally predictable.

I'd also bet that someone who has spent the money on really nice subs like those would want to make the most use of them - not to bypass them.

If he wants to spend some time on experiments, then he might try a sub crawl to see if he can find somewhere better for his subs to go. That would be worthwhile.
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post #7943 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 05:15 AM
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My point is not everyone really believes what is best is by being told what is best .Until they hear that for themselves,the best way to learn for ones self is to start at the basic set-up & then to see what the features the AVR will actually do for your room . I am pointing out to see how good anything is start with a base line . Then work up from there . Then a person trains himself on how the features have a benefit or not ,to the each persons liking .
I never said he would get better bass ,did I ? No I said try it, you "MIGHT" like it .
The outcome is totally predictable to you but if one never hears the differences how is it predictable to the OP ??

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #7944 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

My point is not everyone really believes what is best is by being told what is best .Until they hear that for themselves,the best way to learn for ones self is to start at the basic set-up & then to see what the features the AVR will actually do for your room . I am pointing out to see how good anything is start with a base line . Then work up from there . Then a person trains himself on how the features have a benefit or not ,to the each persons liking .
I never said he would get better bass ,did I ? No I said try it, you "MIGHT" like it .
The outcome is totally predictable to you but if one never hears the differences how is it predictable to the OP ??

Fair comment, Mike. I think it's important though that what you suggest in your post above doesn't come across as advice.
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post #7945 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 04:39 PM
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Hello gents

I'm back with another noob question...

How should i connect and what mode should i use to have best music quality?? i mean how to send to Onkyo pure signal and it will be not touched by ADC just straight to DAC ( sorry for this mess but is hard for me to explain with my english ) At the moment i have connected my sound card from PC to Onkyo by SPDIF all music what im listening is in FLAC format and in stereo mode, i've tried as well DIRECT mode but what i noticed then when i go HOME-> AUDIO i can adjust just subwoofer and centre channel volume why is like this??... I've read today on some polish forum that if u wanna have decent quality in music u need to use stereo amp not the av receiver for music is this true?

My connection is PC ( spdif and hdmi depends whichc system im using xp or 7 ) onkyo 3008 ->XPA-3 - UPA-2

I really wanna know how to get the best sound quality ( music ) from my setup

sorry for this messy post but like i said is quite hard for me to explain everything nicelly

cheers
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post #7946 of 8675 Old 04-17-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
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I'm wondering which subwoofer are you using?

Klipsch RW-12D. That registers very clearly on the butt-o-meter.
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post #7947 of 8675 Old 04-19-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

try re-setting to defaults ,
then set the cross-overs to near what the speakers spec out(that's how low the bass goes =Roll-off) as like 10 above roll-off
have all speakers set as large
set sub LFE as 120 ,
set the subs to 50% gain (you can adjust up later) .
DO NOT run Audyssey ....
enable the speakers that you have hooked up

see how you like that SQ ....

adjust center gain to what works best for voices .. after you do a listening ..
you might be surprised how well that system will sound not running Audyssey

one thing if you mains are larger than the surrounds try switch them to the external Amp & see how that sounds you can always go back .



Ok, I'm a little embarrassed here, I didn't know this post was directed at me. It's looks like you and kbarnes spoke on it.

Everytime I run audyssey, I always reset to default settings.

I pretty much do have all of the speakers close to spec, except the surrounds.
Front left/right and center channel: 60hz
Side surrounds: 80hz
Rear surrounds:100hz
I do have the sub LFE @ 100hz

I'm a little confused with you asking me to set the speakers to large, as far as I know, you can't set them to large or small, but only adjust the HZ or make them full range. If you are saying full range is considered large, then in full range you cannot change the hz.

You suggested for me not to run audyssey, I must say no to that, XT32 is the reason I bought the Onkyo 5008. Believe me, I LOVE what XT32 has done with my subs.

You suggested set the subs to 50% gain, that is far beyond 75db's and will be too much SPL, that will not gain equally with the rest of the speakers.

I am confused with enable the speakers that you have hooked up? ? ? ?

When you suggested that I adjust the gain on the center, are you referring to adjusting the db level in the AVR?

I haven't made those adjustment you asked, but I have heard without XT32, and it was ok, but excellent with it.
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post #7948 of 8675 Old 04-19-2012, 01:18 PM
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I was just offering for you to see how the system ran without XT32 , when you don't use XT32 then everything can be set by the user , there is a setting for large & small on each speaker , the gain levels can be set on each speaker (the relative volume of each speaker to each other ) most subs have a gain/level knob on them . By setting everything to stock & then a listening test . one can then judge what you get when audyssey is done . There even is manual EQ settings as well .
You had stated that after using XT32 that it didn't sound as good in one post . XT32 is a good thing but some have found that they don't like how XT32 has made their system sound.

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #7949 of 8675 Old 04-19-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HAMP568 View Post

I'm a little confused with you asking me to set the speakers to large, as far as I know, you can't set them to large or small, but only adjust the HZ or make them full range. If you are saying full range is considered large, then in full range you cannot change the hz.

That is right. By definition, if you set a crossover, the speakers class as "small".

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Originally Posted by HAMP568 View Post

You suggested for me not to run audyssey, I must say no to that, XT32 is the reason I bought the Onkyo 5008. Believe me, I LOVE what XT32 has done with my subs.

Absolutely. Way to go.


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Originally Posted by HAMP568 View Post

You suggested set the subs to 50% gain, that is far beyond 75db's and will be too much SPL, that will not gain equally with the rest of the speakers.

Again, you are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMP568 View Post

I am confused with enable the speakers that you have hooked up? ? ? ?

Me too He may have meant to tell Audyssey if you are using Height or Wides.

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Originally Posted by HAMP568 View Post

When you suggested that I adjust the gain on the center, are you referring to adjusting the db level in the AVR?

Yes. But it shouldn't be necessary. If you have dialogue intelligibility issues, there are usually reasons that can be fixed. See the Audyssey thread FAQ here:

2. Why is dialogue from the centre channel difficult to hear or understand? (click here)
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post #7950 of 8675 Old 04-19-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

I was just offering for you to see how the system ran without XT32 , when you don't use XT32 then everything can be set by the user , there is a setting for large & small on each speaker , the gain levels can be set on each speaker (the relative volume of each speaker to each other ) most subs have a gain/level knob on them . By setting everything to stock & then a listening test . one can then judge what you get when audyssey is done . There even is manual EQ settings as well .
You had stated that after using XT32 that it didn't sound as good in one post . XT32 is a good thing but some have found that they don't like how XT32 has made their system sound.

No problem, like I said at first, I didn't know you were talking with me. I hope I didn't sound offended in my reply, I'm far from that type of a person, I like to clown around far too much.

When I said It didn't sound as good, I was having mic placement issues. In another forum, someone had chatted with Chris over at audyssey and chris explained that it maybe my furniture and that I should raise the mic above the height of my back seating, which is way above ear level.

Once I re-ran audyssey with the mic that high, it came out fantastic.

I don't think there is a setting for large with the abilities to make adjustment to the hz. The speakers would be full range or with the Hz adjusted.

You were posting to me speaking on how much I love my reverse (lol) amp configuration.
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