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post #7831 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:01 AM
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^^^

jd... once you set it once, it will "remember" it for that input...

- chris

 

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post #7832 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:19 AM
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^^
If it's not global for similar source audio for all inputs, then I stand corrected, as that is how the 3311CI works.

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post #7833 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:28 AM
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^^^

hmmm... possibly i am misremembering...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


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post #7834 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:30 AM
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I don't think it's global. I have two channel sources on my Blu input decode to PLII, and I have two channel sources on my CD input decode to stereo... without intervention.

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post #7835 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

hmmm... possibly i am misremembering...

Nope, you are correct. You would know better than I. And checking the 7005 Owner's manual shows it does not feature the "Auto Surround" setting featured on Denon AVRs that applies the settings across all inputs.

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post #7836 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:38 AM
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^^^

problem is, i tend to forget, or confuse different models with one another...

you are MUCH better at keeping them all straight than i am...

- chris

 

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post #7837 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

jd... once you set it once, it will "remember" it for that input...

This is correct, but it does not have any configureable options in the menu. It always stores the last surround option that you used, so if you change it from say Dolby Digital to Stereo and don't change it back, the next time you play a Dolby Digital source it will play in Stereo.

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post #7838 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

problem is, i tend to forget, or confuse different models with one another...

you are MUCH better at keeping them all straight than i am...

Apparently not in this case ...

As much as we like to use the "clone" word, there are some feature differences.

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post #7839 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 08:19 AM
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This thread often touches on the differences between Denon & Marantz products relating to the AV7005. A major shift will be occurring in the way the products will be distributed to retailers, which also includes a tripling of product marketing investments. An article on this is available from This Week in Consumer Electronics for those interested.
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post #7840 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 09:22 AM
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^^^^ Get ready for numerous threads about Denon being better than Marantz. The D&M reps will now sell both Marantz and Denon. To justify the higher Denon prices, there will be whispering about Denon being better than Marantz.
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post #7841 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 09:28 AM
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^^^

umm... just so you know... the marantz models are the ones that sold at a price premium...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


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post #7842 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 10:00 AM
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Many resellers already carry both brands. Marantz has a decades-long great rep with audiophiles and often great looks, like the 7005. I wanted one.

But one of the differences between the brands is that Denon tends to offer better flavors of Audyssey at lower price points and at times, even better Audyssey implementation. The Denon AVR-1712 (90 watts x 7.1 channels) lists for $399 msrp and features MultEQXT! Years ago I passed on a Marantz AVR because of limitations on Audyssey DSP RC with certain HiRes formats, instead selecting a similarly-priced that had Denon no such issue. I passed on the 7005 when I found to my dismay that it lacked XT32; I opted for the oh-so-average looking but fab sounding Denon A100 (4311).

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #7843 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

I don't think it's global. I have two channel sources on my Blu input decode to PLII, and I have two channel sources on my CD input decode to stereo... without intervention.

Thanks Nathan, that was the answer I was looking for.....and I will assume one can also do this for all sources (CD, BD, SAT, etc).

Now that this is out of the way, HOW ARE YOU GUYS ENJOYING THE SOUND? HONESTLY? 2 CHANNEL & MULTICHANNEL via hdmi.

Thanks

Paul
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post #7844 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 10:53 AM
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I don't follow all of them [D and M releases] super closely, but I suspect there aren't differences of "Denon tends to do this..." and "Marantz tends to do that..." so much as whichever is the more recently released design is the current front runner of "Look everyone, this one has all the cool new features, including the latest/best incarnation of Audyssey, at a better MSRP, i.e. it's the better value and the one to beat!"

Larger discounts often seen on older designs, however, means buying the latest release isn't always the best value, but if considering only the MSRP, not the street price, the newest one usually wins.

In five years from now XT32 will be seen as the "introductory" level of Audyssey, found on the (almost) entry level $299 releases.

It's just like buying a computer: "If you wait, they will cost less!" but you need one so you have to bite the bullet and dive in at some point.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #7845 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

Thanks Nathan, that was the answer I was looking for.....and I will assume one can also do this for all sources (CD, BD, SAT, etc).

Now that this is out of the way, HOW ARE YOU GUYS ENJOYING THE SOUND? HONESTLY? 2 CHANNEL & MULTICHANNEL via hdmi.

Thanks

Paul

you don't have to yell...

although i no longer have an av7005, my "listening habits" haven't changed since then..

i listen to 2 channel recordings in 2 channel and mch recordings in mch... via hdmi from my oppo 93, or streamed via my atv2...

all bass managed and with rc applied....

- chris

 

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post #7846 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 11:22 AM
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OOPS! I always highlight but I didn't mean to yell.
Thanks Chris, I understand your connections....but you did not answer my question, how did you enjoy the sound quality out of the 7005, as you remember it?

Thanks

Paul
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post #7847 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 11:32 AM
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^^^

no different than the previous xt equipped pre-pro i had (integra 9.9) other than the fact it didn't click...

you are asking the wrong person for "subjective" evaluation... i've owned at least half a dozen pre-pro's/avrs over the past half dozen years... i wouldn't bet a nickel i could differentiate them run flat in any type of controlled test...

apply dsp, and it's a different story... my a100 measures better* than the av7005/bryston it replaced, and the "sound difference", in my room, with my speakers/subwoofers/treatments is not insignificant in the low octaves/xover region...

- chris

 

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post #7848 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i wouldn't bet a nickel i could differentiate them run flat in any type of controlled test...

But that's only true because you are a human being. Both super humans and electronics alike would have no difficulty in hearing/measuring frequency response deviations on the order of .1 dB, changes in THD less than .1%, and background noise floor changes a fraction of a dB, as well.

Oh wait, I forgot, there are also all those amp parameters "unmeasurable" to scientific instrumentation such as "pin point, three dimensional front to back imaging" and "how many veils get removed" that only humans are sensitive to (at least the ones that do sighted testing, that is). Never mind.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #7849 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 01:47 PM
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^^^

seeing i was recently accused of being a dalek*, i'll take that...

all that other stuff happened as i climbed the speaker food chain, and got at least somewhat of a clue about room acoustics/speaker placement...

* with an ipad for a head, no less...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


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post #7850 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

umm... just so you know... the marantz models are the ones that sold at a price premium...

Sorry did not know this. My Marantz AV7005 is the only non Carver equipment I have.
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post #7851 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

I don't think it's global. I have two channel sources on my Blu input decode to PLII, and I have two channel sources on my CD input decode to stereo... without intervention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

Thanks Nathan, that was the answer I was looking for.....and I will assume one can also do this for all sources (CD, BD, SAT, etc).

Ok, I just want to add some clarification here because I apparently misunderstood the question. While there's no configureable menu option for this (which is what I thought Paul was asking), the way it actually works for me is if I toggle Stereo or Pure Audio for say PCM 2.0 sources, the AV7005 will remember that as long as I don't change it. If I toggle DPLII for Dolby Digital it remembers that as well, again as long as I don't change it. Note by toggle I mean pushing the Surround button to cycle through the Surround modes as this isn't done through a menu.

And like Nathan said this is per-input, and not global, so if I set a Dolby Digital 5.1 program to Stereo on my SAT input, it will retain that setting for SAT, and when I switch to BD input, Dolby Digital 5.1 will default to Audyssey DSX. Note that I haven't actually read or confirmed this in the manual. This is just my experience with the AV7005 as this is how it works for me.

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post #7852 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Assuming you own or have easy access to a high quality SPL meter and test tone, then yes. If you don't, I don't think you should feel compelled to have to buy them. I'd basically "wing it" as follows.

Here's a trick way to make the AV7005 do that matching for you:

A) Run the auto mic test with sub A only, in place, and volume set to 50% or so. Just do the first test run of all speakers and the sub, not all 8 runs that get averaged later, which the AV7005 can do. Lock in the results as if you were content and done.

B) Check the results and record them on a piece of paper. Menu>Auto Setup, scroll down to Parameter Check> select each one. [sub level and distance ]

C) Place the second sub, sub B, at what you believe to be the same distance from the calibration mic's main position (the first reading is the main one it uses to determine distances and levels, BTW), also in "sub direct mode" (or whatever they call bypassing the internal crossover, if at all possible), just like the first sub, but maintaining the use of the sub's gain (volume) knob. Run the auto mic test once through.

D) Check the results. Not the same distance after all? Due to varying internal processing delays in different subs, and room reflections, this is not so surprising. We do need to account for this, however, so if the AV7005 says it is 4 feet too close compared to the other sub, then move it 4 feet away, or whatever distance it measures, that is. Trust Audyssey, not your tape measure.

E) Re-run sub B with the new, corrected distance. Once you are down to a foot or less difference, you are good to go. With sub frequencies, being off this much (probably even more) is perfectly fine. Don't let the scaremongers scare you otherwise. If you like to be persnickety then take all the time you like getting it down to .1 ft, or whatever, but I personally think it is a waste of time.

F) We now have the two subs, using the exact same x-over frequency and at the exact same distance from the primary listening position. The final step is to keep testing new positions of the gain control on sub B until the end results of new mic test runs with it, operating alone, show the same setting (within 1 dB, or so) of sub A's results from step B.

VoilÃ*, you now have two identical level subs, in phase ( same "distance") with each other.

G) Re-run the final auto mic test using both subs together, and you're done. Don't be surprised that Audyssey lowers the sub out by 3 to 6 dB, or so, depending on if your subs are symmetrically placed or not, since the summed output of both will be stronger than when you ran one sub at a time. Assuming you don't "peg off scale" [see "-12 dB" or "+12dB" as the result], you should be good to go. You can average up to 8 full runs if you'd like. [Probably a good idea. See Audyseey thread for more details.] Lock in the results and enjoy.

Assuming my subwoofers are equally spaced from the listening area and have the exact same volume and crossover settings, why wouldn't I run Audyssey with both subs on?
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post #7853 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 06:53 PM
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[I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, however I will assume I do understand and will now respond.]

Before the advent of Audyssey and other microphone/computer assisted room calibration schemes, placing two identical subwoofers the same distance from the primary listening position, and setting them to the same xover and level, let's say my favorite one, "11" , was a reasonable course of action.

The problems with this, which Audyssey owners can have fixed for free, are as follows:

A. What if the two subs aren't the same make and model?
B. Even if they are the same and they are both set to "11", the actual level arriving at the seated primary position may vary due to the differences between the two subs' proximities to room boundaries (distances to walls, ceiling, floor) or room decor and reflections differences.

Generally, all other things being equal, introducing another identical speaker to a room (sub or full range, it doesn't matter), backed with the same signal and symmetrically identical placement, will yield a +3 dB boost to the room. [Which is nice, so you can then run them at a lower level with less woofer excursion and distortion, plus it can get louder when it needs to.] This however flies out the window if one speaker has a 3 dB (or greater) louder output than the other one, for whatever reason (volume knob settings, different efficiency designs, room boundary distance discrepancies, etc). Suddenly that +3 dB room boost vanishes and the 2nd speaker's contribution to the room becomes practically nothing.

This is why it is important that a secondary sub added to a room be set so that its volume, as measured at the listening position, is the same as the first sub. If either sub is 3 dB (or more) louder than the other, then the weaker one has almost no consequence on the room's bass, as far as that listener is concerned. You might as well not have even bought that second sub!
---

Although not nearly as critical as it is with the other speakers in the room (and for different reasons), two or more subs in a room generally (there can be exceptions*) should be placed equi-distant to the primary listening position. It has nothing to do with imaging and spatial cues, however (despite what some "audiophiles" might insist), but instead is simply because you don't want the subs out of phase and working against each other; it's just wasteful (and can cause frequency response irregularities due to constructive/destructive interference similar to "lobbing"). XT32 has an advantage over XT in being able to do that phase correction ("distance") with an electrical delay, instead of my method I outlined which uses a physical, travel time delay.

*Although we AV7005 owners have a fantastic EQ which can correct great errors in the room, set via a computer controlled microphone feedback system on board, an argument can be made that one doesn't want to excite the room identically with two subs having symmetrical room placements, ie room frequency responses due to room nodes. It is off topic to this thread's discussion however.

Quote:
why wouldn't I run Audyssey with both subs on?

Once you have ensured they are both playing at the same level, as measured from the primary listening position, and are reasonably in phase with eachother [I wouldn't worry about small diferences, say under a foot or so, considering the wavelengths involved] you do run Audyssey with both on. It's the last step, "G".

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #7854 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Reponse

m. zillch... i appreciate your response. Here's the situation: two identical subs, identical volume placed at identical distance from the main listening position. How to calibrate?

You're mentioning to either use a. SPL meter or b. the (complex) method you discussed. But why not simply connect both subwoofers together? I know you provided a lengthy explanation but I still don't quite understand why not?
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post #7855 of 9656 Old 03-01-2012, 07:58 PM
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When you say "identical volume" do you mean:

A. Both subs have their volume (gain) knobs turned to the same number?

or

B. Your SPL meter which you believe to be as good if not better than the Audyssey mic system (Very unlikely. Radio Shack for instance doesn't cut it, sorry.) The two subs measure to be the same volume at the primary position using the manual calibration tones from the same signal?

If you are of the mind that your two subs are playing at the same level as measured at the primary listening position and are also reasonably in phase with one another (I'd have Audyssey measure that too), then you can jump straight to step G, use a Y cord or the two outputs on the back of the AV7005 (which is actually an internal "Y cord") and run Audyssey as one normally does with just one sub.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #7856 of 9656 Old 03-02-2012, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

When you say "identical volume" do you mean:

A. Both subs have their volume (gain) knobs turned to the same number?

or

B. Your SPL meter which you believe to be as good if not better than the Audyssey mic system (Very unlikely. Radio Shack for instance doesn't cut it, sorry.) The two subs measure to be the same volume at the primary position using the manual calibration tones from the same signal?

If you are of the mind that your two subs are playing at the same level as measured at the primary listening position and are also reasonably in phase with one another (I'd have Audyssey measure that too), then you can jump straight to step G, use a Y cord or the two outputs on the back of the AV7005 (which is actually an internal "Y cord") and run Audyssey as one normally does with just one sub.

Thanks - makes sense!
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post #7857 of 9656 Old 03-03-2012, 08:17 AM
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when listening to a music cd which surround mode should I use? I want all 7.1 speakers to play.
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post #7858 of 9656 Old 03-03-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

when listening to a music cd which surround mode should I use? I want all 7.1 speakers to play.


There's no right answer, but I would vote for Dolby PLII Music. This will place ambience information in the surround speakers. I think this is best if you are sitting, listening to music.

If you want instruments everywhere, try all channel stereo. I think this is best if you are running around the room, and don't really care about imaging etc. Just fills up the space with music from all channels.

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post #7859 of 9656 Old 03-03-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

when listening to a music cd which surround mode should I use? I want all 7.1 speakers to play.

When I listen to Pandora I like to use the Neural setting, unless I am playing more than one zone. My zones overlap coverage and the surround settings delay the zone one signal.
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post #7860 of 9656 Old 03-03-2012, 05:24 PM
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Does one NEED to use the unit's DAC's to get signal out the the sub in 2CH?

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