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post #9661 of 9688 Unread 10-21-2014, 12:59 PM
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I don't think he uses Audyssey, although he should. Using maximum volume on the external "amp", actually a receiver in his case, will apply too much gain.


I use -10 dB on the Denon external receiver's EXT IN I use as my amp, regarding its volume knob. It seems to get the Audyssey calibration numbers in the right ballpark, but different sensitivity speakers, or if used at different distances than what I use, or in a different room would all undoubtedly net different values.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #9662 of 9688 Unread 10-21-2014, 01:36 PM
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I do use Audyssey on the AV7005 and on the Denon, I'm running pure direct mode and just to be safe I set the EQ, speaker distance, etc. to zero.
On a side note I had much better results running Audyssey with the mic on a tripod than just setting the mic on top of the back of my couch. It was actually a night and day difference.
What I find odd is that I did not like sound after I ran the Audyssey on my Denon, however that was back when I purchased it in 2006.
Maybe my hearing has changed ..

The main reason for my question, was based on adding any unnecessary distortion running the Denon that high.

Thanks
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post #9663 of 9688 Unread 10-21-2014, 01:58 PM
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Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood you originally when I said I didn't think you were using Audyssey.


Running the outboard receiver, as a power amp, is properly done with it set to "Direct mode" or "Pure Direct", yes, however if you select "Pure Direct" on your AV7005 [which is what I thought you meant in your earlier post, but must have misunderstood] you are no longer are using Audyssey and the various mic related corrections, nor your subwoofer output.
Sorry, my bad.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #9664 of 9688 Unread 10-21-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmullaly View Post
On a side note I had much better results running Audyssey with the mic on a tripod than just setting the mic on top of the back of my couch. It was actually a night and day difference.

The location of the mic should be aiming straight up, biasing it slightly forward won't matter much but also won't hurt, however it has to be at exactly ear height at the seated ear position, and the back of the couch is not that location.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #9665 of 9688 Unread 10-21-2014, 04:00 PM
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any time frame on the Atmos version?
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^^
The AV7702 is due to be released sometime next week.

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post #9667 of 9688 Unread 10-22-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
The AV7702 is due to be released sometime next week.
glad i asked
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Unhappy Channels Fading Out During Listening

Hello,
I have an Anthem multichannel power amp connected to a Marantz AV7005.
After I turn my system on and play something through the Marantz, one of the channels fades out after about half a minute.

I tried all sort of sources and inputs and the results are the same.
It is usually on the right side of the system (fronts and backs).
I'm usually use the system for 2 channel stereo and the right front speaker is the one that fades out.
If I switch between the R/L interconnects between the pre-pro and the amp, the problem switches to the left front speaker.

The strange thing is that I fully tested the AV7005 at the original owner's house and it appeared to be working properly.
I also have no problems when I listen to music through headphones connected to the AV7005.

There are few differences between my setup and the original system owner's setup:

1. I'm using surge protector for the whole system and I'm wondering if it can cause such issues.

2. My AV7005 is a 120V/60Hz unit so to use it in my location which is 240V/50Hz I use a step down transformer (Tacima 100VA). The original owner had a different and bigger one but he also needed such a big transformer because his amp (different amp than I have) was hooked to it too (BTW, the AV7005 is rated at 60W).

I sent the amp for a check and no problem was found. I also switched cables and still couldn't find the root cause.

Please advice what could be the reason for this misbehavior.

Thanks.
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post #9669 of 9688 Unread 12-03-2014, 12:19 AM
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I just bought an open box AV7005 at Best Buy. Need to buy a remote, calibration mic, and XLR cables.

Looks like the RC011 remote goes for $55+ on ebay. Which universal remotes work with the 7005? Doesn't have to be super powerful; long battery life would be nice.

The ACM1H mic is only ~ $15k on ebay.
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post #9670 of 9688 Unread 12-03-2014, 04:20 AM
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^^
Harmony remotes work just fine. You can use either a DM-A409, ACM1H, or ACM1HB Audyssey mic.

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post #9671 of 9688 Unread 12-03-2014, 10:27 PM
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I believe just about any of the newer Marantz remotes will work your unit. You might want to search for other models. I lost one of my remotes once and found the newer model remote for less than half the price. The only real difference was it was laid out a little different (better).
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post #9672 of 9688 Unread 12-04-2014, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
Harmony remotes work just fine. You can use either a DM-A409, ACM1H, or ACM1HB Audyssey mic.
Thanks. I'm going to try a harmony 700.
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post #9673 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 06:03 AM
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I'm having a weird ground loop hum and wondered if anyone had some insight.

Setup:
Marantz AV7005 AVR
XLR cables (Audioquest Diamondback) to 7 channels of Krell amplification (Krell Chorus 5200 + Krell KAV 250a)
AudioArt SC-5 SE speaker cable to B&W Nautilus 800 L & R mains
RCA cable to SVS sub
HDMI x3 (Audioquest Carbon) from DirectTV DVR, from Roku3, from Samsung BluRay
HDMI x1 (Audioquest Cinnamon) to Samsung LCD TV

I just added the Krell Chorus and dramatically decreased a very annoying ground loop hum noticed ONLY in L/R mains.
It is eliminated (beautifully silent) when signal sent from the DirectTV (surround modes) and from the Roku (Stereo mode only).
A present and mildly annoying hum occurs when the BluRay player is used to play a CD in Stereo mode only (I didn't try playing a DVD, BluRay disc).

The weird aspects:
The hum does not immediately go away when the source is changed away from the BluRay player, even if the HDMI is removed and the power discontinued to the player.
The hum is present when multiple HDMI inputs are tried (I did not try any HDMI that were in use by the Roku or the DirectTV).
A hum occurred when I used the Audyssey microphone, and then went away when it was disconnected.
A hum, while not originally noticed in surround mode, "crept in" after about 30min, after checking various settings from Audyssey calibration.

Help!
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post #9674 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 10:09 AM
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First off keep in mind electronics have some faint hum, no matter what you do, so you may never be able to eliminate ALL of it if you analyze these things by walking over to your speakers (and sub) and putting your ear right up to it.


Ground loop hum can be a real bear to diagnose because it usually isn't just one connection's fault but rather the system seen as a whole. Even though , let's say for example the problem seems to go away when the incoming RF feed to the sat box is severed [try that by the way], that same "problem" doesn't exist if the sub is disconnected. See it's really the system configuration not the component itself.


Keep in mind what may seem like perfectly innocuous connections can be the "culprits" even if they seem far away and unrelated, even remote trigger wires, IR blasters, etc. It may be that unplugging the power to the sub [or temporarily putting a cheater plug on it to break the AC ground] makes the problem in [perhaps] the front left speaker go away, for example.


In general one important rule is to use a "star grounding system topology", i.e. all grounds start at one point, say one beefy AC strip plugged to one AC outlet, and then everything emanates out of that like the rays of light coming out from the center of a star. Add a new outlet in the room, like for that far away display or sub, and you break the rule!


All you can ultimately do is unplug literally everything and keep adding components one by one until you find what new connection suddenly makes the system have a new secondary ground potential which causes the hum. Then work from there by adding a transformer or isolator box, changing the audio path to that part optically instead of through a wire [often done when subs are the problem], and using various other band aid approaches.


Read , more here. good luck:http://www.rane.com/note110.html

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #9675 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 12:31 PM
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M. Zilch - Thank you for your answer. I have actually spent the past few weeks reading about this issue, including many of your previous comments addressing ground loop issues.
I posted my questions/ problems after having performed an exhaustive analysis of my specific situation. I have tested (via the complete elimination/ unplugging then slow & deliberate reconnecting method) the following, and believe it is NOT: phone line, satellite, coax cable, amplifiers, Roku, HDMI cables, XLR cables, fans for Salamander cabinet, Harmony remote control box, or TV.
The only thing I have not done is change to toslink from the BluRay to AVR - but then I would still need a wired way to get a video signal to the AVR.

I know when there is hum & when there is not & I'm not being overly sensitive about it: my wife also commented on the ground level of noise & noticed the difference when present vs not. The noise also used to be significantly worse with different amps (Krell 250a run in bridged mode).

I know what seems to induce the hum: the BluRay player & the Audessey microphone.

What remains odd is the persistence of the hum even after all connections involving the BluRay (both to the AVR & even to common wall power) are severed & the Audessey microphone is removed.
Also odd: the randomness of hum, in previously silent situations.

Last edited by DocTock993; 12-08-2014 at 12:50 PM.
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post #9676 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 02:10 PM
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It would be a problem if the hum was so loud during the Audyssey mic calibration sequence such that it actually hears the hum and thinks of it as part of the inherent bass response of your system. If the problem only occurs when the Bluray deck is connected what you could do is disconnect it entirely when doing the mic calibration sequence and reconnect it afterwards. [of course the mic should be disconnected from the AV7005 when not doing a calibration run.]


Another possible help [although it may make the hum even worse, but worth a try] is to run a ground wire from the AV7005 [since it doesn't use a three prong IEC power cord to the AC] using for instance its phono ground connection on the back, and try touching that to the various ground points such as the chassis screws on the Bluray deck, its HDMI plug's outer metal jacket, and the third prong ground point of the AC outlet of your main AC strip, seeing if any reduce the hum.


In rare circumstances using XLR connections instead of RCA is harmful rather than helpful. If you happen to have some RCA wires you could easily test this, assuming your amps have RCA ins too.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


Last edited by m. zillch; 12-08-2014 at 02:16 PM.
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post #9677 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 02:20 PM
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DocTock993,

One of the possible causes that I didn't see you explicitly mention is where the equipment is plugged in.

Are all of the electronics getting their power from the same wall power outlet?
Using different outlets sometimes can induce hum for various reasons, with differing phases being the most common.

Although you mention a Salamander cabinet, it isn't obvious if you mean to imply that the same Salamander power conditioner is being used for everything.

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post #9678 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 04:58 PM
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All equipment is plugged into a Panamax M8-AV. Electrical only, no coaxial/ phone/ Ethernet is run through the Panamax
The Harmony and all cabinet fans are plugged into a multi-outlet strip that is also plugged into the same Panamax.
The cabinet is wood with no metal causing a potential connection between pieces of equipment.

The part I find most odd is the presence of noise even after the "offending" probable sources were no longer connected in any way. Also, the absence of noise in any other speakers.
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post #9679 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 05:06 PM
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Your TV and sub are powered by that same Panamax M8-AV?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Your TV and sub are powered by that same Panamax M8-AV?
No. A mistake in description on my part.
The sub is the one powered part that is on a different wall plug. It is very far away from the rest of the equipment & to be honest I do not know if it is on the same circuit.
Of note, i was able to make it hum, but that was only when I touched the RCA plug when disconnecting everything from the 7005 & I realized I had left it on.
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post #9681 of 9688 Unread 12-08-2014, 09:29 PM
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Yeah, usually when I tell people that to achieve proper star grounding they must connect everything to literally the same AC strip they feel their sub and TV display are some how exempt, but sorry, it doesn't work that way, even if it doesn't seem like the TV/sub are the problems, also just because the distant outlet may be on the same circuit breaker doesn't prove that its ground has the exact same potential. Microvolts count with gear sensitive to ground loops.


Yank both the sub's RCA connection AND its AC connection to the wall and hopefully your hum will go away. If so the solution is quite easy and not too expensive:
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/su...link-xr-2-4-gh


[Psst: You can get it for a tad less from other vendors but I figure you need to see a sub company you respect, respects it.]


It's normal for subs to hum when you touch their RCA wires with your fingers; that's how we verify they work.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #9682 of 9688 Unread 12-11-2014, 07:52 AM
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Sadly it's not the sub. I followed the suggestion & unplugged the sub from both wall outlet & RCA cable (at the 7005).

Last night, watching something on Netflix via the Roku3 (previously silent) - the low level noise/ hum was present.

Worse still, two nights ago while watching Monday Night Football via DirectTV, there was NO noise/ hum for ~30min, then it definitely kicked in!

This is very frustrating!
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post #9683 of 9688 Unread 12-11-2014, 08:03 AM
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DocTock993,

This is starting to sound like outside interference.. some other appliance or general electrical device is probably kicking on and interfering on the electrical circuits.. See if you can correlate it with a device that kicks off and on periodically.. fridge, washer/dryer, dishwasher, hair dryer, even ceiling fans, computers, electric water heaters or pumps, etc..

Next time the hum occurs, disconnect and unplug your TV/Projector.. see if the hum still hangs around..
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post #9684 of 9688 Unread 12-11-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocTock993 View Post
Sadly it's not the sub. I followed the suggestion & unplugged the sub from both wall outlet & RCA cable (at the 7005).

Last night, watching something on Netflix via the Roku3 (previously silent) - the low level noise/ hum was present.

Worse still, two nights ago while watching Monday Night Football via DirectTV, there was NO noise/ hum for ~30min, then it definitely kicked in!

This is very frustrating!
It kicking in and out suggests that it is *not* a "ground loop" which could be fixed by recabling or isolation.

Instead, that symptom suggests to me that the noise is being caused by a heavy-duty motor switching on and off. You might compare the timing with your HVAC system and/or refrigeration. For example, do you have a large freezer?

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post #9685 of 9688 Unread 12-11-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocTock993 View Post
Sadly it's not the sub.
#2 most common reason for ground loop induced hum is the cable/sat box, but not due to the AC plug, but rather the alternate ground potential from the RF feed coming in on the 75 ohm coax wire. Next time the hum kicks in try severing the F-pin connection(s) for the incoming RF feed.

The way ground loops seem to come and go, suddenly and for no apparent reason, is similar to how the arc of electricity to a Tesla coil, certain arc lamps, or the spark gap of a sparkplug will dance around. Electricity is constantly searching for the path of least resistance but when their are two (or more) alternate paths which are both equally bad (or good) it can't make up its mind and will switch around. The goal is to find only one, really solid ground, stick with that, and not tempt the system with any alternate ones.

If the problem noise is decidedly "60 Hz hum" [or 50 Hz depending on your country's AC], I disagree a refrigerator or AC is kicking on is the problem. That would sound more like a buzz sound. Easy to test though by forcing your AC and frig to turn on and off, via manipulation of the thermostat, to see if that triggers the sound system noise.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Please pardon what may be a very basic question, but does anyone know what crossover frequency the AV7005 opts for when set to biamp with the "Speaker C" setting? Is it adjustable? I've been unable to locate any information beyond the third of a page blurb in the manual and brief mention in the specs.

Thanks much.
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^Bi-amping (passive, the type the AV7005 manual is referring to, aka "fool's bi-amping") should never be done. It is a complete waste of time, effort, electricity, wiring, amps, generates more heat, and provides no increase in either sound quality or quantity. The placebo effect successfully dupes millions into hearing a benefit from it though.


Both amplifiers see, and are burdened to amplify, the full range of frequencies. Active bi-amping, on the other hand, is a completely different animal, quite legitimate, limits the frequencies each amp sees, and has some modest advantages, but that's not what's being discussed, and requires an additional outboard crossover unit.


[People who use "bass management" and a powered sub are using a variety of active bi-amplification, the second amp being the one inside the powered sub. Here the main speakers and amps aren't burdened by attempting to amplify the deep bass (which is the hardest part, hence sub amps are usually beefy), they never even see it in fact, hence they in theory can play a little cleaner/more loudly before they distort.] This variety of active bi-amping is beneficial and thanks to the Audyssey calibration system very easy to set up properly.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
...passive, the type the AV7005 manual is referring to, aka "fool's bi-amping"...
Thanks. I had misread that part thinking the mention of parallel signals was for the unbalanced and balanced output pairs not the same signal on everything. My mind refused to believe they'd call that "biamping" at all, so I missed the obvious. Drat, I was hoping to see what Audyssey could do with active biamping; guess I'll have to pull out my old Rane if I want to experiment a bit there. Not that I enjoy using it, the phase never settles in right.
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