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post #181 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pjonkheer View Post

The Denon 4311 fwiw is lacking quality dacs.

I would curious on this. Do you know what the 4311 and SR/AV7005 have for DACs?

Bill

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post #182 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 10:04 AM
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Does the Marantz AV7005 offer anything the Onkyo PR-SC5508 doesn't? With the way Onkyo products are so heavily discounted online, I would expect the street price of these two units to be quite similar.
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post #183 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I would curious on this. Do you know what the 4311 and SR/AV7005 have for DACs?

This is what is listed for the Denon: 24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Burr-Brown PCM-1791

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post #184 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Balanced would be a plus as my main amps f(Emotiva) or L/R/C and surrounds have balanced inputs.

According to the AV7005 manual, the unbalanced preouts are 1.2V while the balanced preouts are 2.4V. Emotiva amps have a pretty high gain (32db), and this review of the XPA-2 indicates that it reaches full output with only 1.2v.

This probably means something in terms of using the balanced vs. unbalanced outputs. In fact, if someone can explain what that would mean when it comes to using Emos (or any other amp), I'd appreciate it.
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post #185 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I would curious on this. Do you know what the 4311 and SR/AV7005 have for DACs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

This is what is listed for the Denon: 24-bit/192-kHz DACs – Burr-Brown PCM-1791

The DAC(s) in the 4311CI is a currently a point of contention. See the 4311CI thread. The Denon specs page indicates the AKM AK4358 8 channel monolithic DAC -- a step down from discrete stereo DACs. Other sources suggest Denon's oft used Burr Brown PCM1791A stereo DACs.

Keep in mind that the SR7005/AV7005 is ostensibly based on the 3311CI, which does use the AK4358.

AJ
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post #186 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Does the Marantz AV7005 offer anything the Onkyo PR-SC5508 doesn't? With the way Onkyo products are so heavily discounted online, I would expect the street price of these two units to be quite similar.

The big one is the name. Onkyo's quality control or lack there of would and is a deal breaker from this camp...
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post #187 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

If the specs are basically identical I see no reason to go with the SR7005 either. The AV7005 has balanced preouts and preouts for Height and Wide speakers but the SR7005 has the amp section. So it would be a choice based on what one needs from a processor. I think the fact that the SR/AV7005 does not have XT32 would lead me toward the Denon 4311 or one of the Onkyos that have XT32. I'm not sure whether the AV7005 would be an improvement or a lateral move when compared to my 886.

Bill


Gentlemen:

If I am going to be using the unbalanced pre-out connection and do not care about the Height and Wide speaker connections would the same hold true about not waiting on the AV7005 and just go with the SR7005 now?

Maybe if the amp section is good enough in the SR7005 I can sell my Sherbourn amp??
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post #188 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minge View Post

Gentlemen:

If I am going to be using the unbalanced pre-out connection and do not care about the Height and Wide speaker connections would the same hold true about not waiting on the AV7005 and just go with the SR7005 now?

Maybe if the amp section is good enough in the SR7005 I can sell my Sherbourn amp??

If I didn't care about the xlr outs and height/wide outs I'd really consider the SR over the AV. As to whether it's amp will suffice, you need to consider your speakers(how low their impedance dips), how far back you sit and how loud you listen.
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post #189 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minge View Post

The big one is the name. Onkyo's quality control or lack there of would and is a deal breaker from this camp...

There's nothing more than anecdotal evidence that Onkyo is any worse than Denon/Marantz in the "quality" department. People have issues with both brands, and neither company has a reputation of ignoring warranty claims or anything egregious like that. EVERY receiver/prepro has some kind of HDMI issues, that's just the nature of the FUBAR interface itself.
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post #190 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJD View Post

According to the AV7005 manual, the unbalanced preouts are 1.2V while the balanced preouts are 2.4V. Emotiva amps have a pretty high gain (32db), and this review of the XPA-2 indicates that it reaches full output with only 1.2v.

This probably means something in terms of using the balanced vs. unbalanced outputs. In fact, if someone can explain what that would mean when it comes to using Emos (or any other amp), I'd appreciate it.

I'd have to dig up the manual and see how the Emo is spec'd; the gain may change when driven differentially. It probably will not have significant impact either way in practice. Having higher gain generally means higher noise, but with sufficient SNR (which my Emo's have) that's a non-issue.

Driving differentially may slightly reduce distortion, improve common-mode rejection (lower hum/noise coupling), and the impact on noise depends upon how they implemented the input stage but will have a small effect either way on the noise floor. For very long runs, balanced (XLR) helps reject hum and noise. For short runs I have found almost no difference listening or measuring. In a prior life, my measurements showed generally a hair lower distortion and a hair less noise for balanced inputs (relative to full scale) but it was deep in the mud and almost certainly inaudible.

I currently have an XPA-2 and XPA-3 driving various Magneplanar speakers plus a pair of Mirage Nanosats for rears (soon to be Magneplanar as well). I would have gotten an XPA-5 had I known I might be using seven channels of amplification; at the time I had dropped back to 5.1 but have since decided 7.1 will work OK (and there seem to be more 7.1 titles coming out now compared to even a few months ago). However, if everything looks pretty much the same, I'd probably get the AVR instead of the pre/pro to make life easier and in line with my philosophy of moving AVRs around the house as I trade up.

Just really wish it had XT32...

FWIW, I have heard that the Marantz high-end AVRs sound much better than anything else out there, including Denon and Onkyo/Integra, but do not have personal experience in my system.

I am in no big hurry but if I make a change I want to do it this fall, well before Christmas. - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #191 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 05:35 PM
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I have called Marantz once a week for a month waiting on the dog on AV7005 and I always get a new tech support person everytime. so I always ask given my situation where I have an XPA-5 and will be using either the sr or the av as a pre-amp, which will give me the best sound between the 2 and they always say go with the av preamp. it will give me the best sound between the 2. so if you have the amp already and are trying to decide, i would go with the av as they are built for just that. my 2 cents...
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post #192 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

There's nothing more than anecdotal evidence that Onkyo is any worse than Denon/Marantz in the "quality" department. People have issues with both brands, and neither company has a reputation of ignoring warranty claims or anything egregious like that. EVERY receiver/prepro has some kind of HDMI issues, that's just the nature of the FUBAR interface itself.

How is three bad out of the box Onkyo receivers in a row for anecdotal...The answer I received back from the sales department was to stop buying Onkyo as there lack of QC is getting worse by the day.

I agree with you on the HDMI front..
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post #193 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minge View Post

How is three bad out of the box Onkyo receivers in a row for anecdotal...The answer I received back from the sales department was to stop buying Onkyo as there lack of QC is getting worse by the day.

I agree with you on the HDMI front..

That is not a very good success rate from Onkyo. I have had three Onkyos (805, 885 and 886) without a single problem. But if I had your bad luck I would most definitely be looking at Denon and Marantz.

Bill

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post #194 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I'd have to dig up the manual and see how the Emo is spec'd; the gain may change when driven differentially. It probably will not have significant impact either way in practice. Having higher gain generally means higher noise, but with sufficient SNR (which my Emo's have) that's a non-issue.

Driving differentially may slightly reduce distortion, improve common-mode rejection (lower hum/noise coupling), and the impact on noise depends upon how they implemented the input stage but will have a small effect either way on the noise floor. For very long runs, balanced (XLR) helps reject hum and noise. For short runs I have found almost no difference listening or measuring. In a prior life, my measurements showed generally a hair lower distortion and a hair less noise for balanced inputs (relative to full scale) but it was deep in the mud and almost certainly inaudible.

Thanks Don. Two follow up questions for you (or someone else)

1) I know balanced outputs are supposed to reduce "noise", but does that noise mean interference-related noise (say from cable boxes or dimmers) AND the inherent noise from an amp with a high noise floor/high gain. Or is it just the former?

2) When a preout voltage spec is given (1.2V, 2.4V, whatever), I assume that is a maximum output - correct? If so, do preamps generally increase from zero to that maximum in a linear fashion - i.e. does 50% on the volume dial equate to 50% of preamp output voltage?
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post #195 of 9688 Old 09-17-2010, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Does the Marantz AV7005 offer anything the Onkyo PR-SC5508 doesn't? With the way Onkyo products are so heavily discounted online, I would expect the street price of these two units to be quite similar.

I own the AV8003 and it absolutely (to my ears) BLEW away my Integra DTC-80.1 in terms of sound quality.
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post #196 of 9688 Old 09-18-2010, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

The DAC(s) in the 4311CI is a currently a point of contention. See the 4311CI thread. The Denon specs page indicates the AKM AK4358 8 channel monolithic DAC -- a step down from discrete stereo DACs. Other sources suggest Denon's oft used Burr Brown PCM1791A stereo DACs.

Keep in mind that the SR7005/AV7005 is ostensibly based on the 3311CI, which does use the AK4358.

AJ

The Denon page isnt equivocal about the info through - they state it pretty clearly and the Burr Brown column is right next to it clearly unchecked. So why would one could the picture with what anyone other than the Manufacturer says, particularly when that party is probably going on assumption about what Denon used to use?

Also those two particular Marantz models is made in Japan in a different factory from those two particular Denons, which are made by a Chinese contract manufactuter. So its not impossible that they have different components, since on these Models Marantz is clearly willing to accept a much higher cost of Japanese labour, probably for quality reasons.

But we dont have a spec from Marantz so at the end of the day one has to way for a user manual or more likely service manual to show up somewhere.
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post #197 of 9688 Old 09-18-2010, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJD View Post

Thanks Don. Two follow up questions for you (or someone else)

1) I know balanced outputs are supposed to reduce "noise", but does that noise mean interference-related noise (say from cable boxes or dimmers) AND the inherent noise from an amp with a high noise floor/high gain. Or is it just the former?

2) When a preout voltage spec is given (1.2V, 2.4V, whatever), I assume that is a maximum output - correct? If so, do preamps generally increase from zero to that maximum in a linear fashion - i.e. does 50% on the volume dial equate to 50% of preamp output voltage?

1. The former -- the balanced connection tends to reject noise and hum since external signals couple equally to both wires in the cable. A quick explanation: There are positive (Vp) and negative (Vn) outputs from the source, so the signals on each wire are 180 deg out of phase. At the source and load, common-mode signals like noise get cancelled since the components effectively perform (Vp - Vn) = Vdiff. That is, the signal gets doubled since Vp - Vn = 2V, but noise is the same on each side and gets cancelled: Vnoise = Vnoise = 0.

2. Our hearing is not linear and so most volume controls are not either. Old-style controls used to have different "tapers". A linear taper went 1, 2, 3 etc. A log taper would (for example) double the level for each step from e.g. 1 to 10. Note that in power, to our ears, it takes 10 times the level to sound twice as loud. Audio taper controls were most common for audio systems, a special type of log control that put most of the change in the last half to match the way we hear. That is, the change is smaller at lower levels, and faster as it gets loud. This correspond to the way we hear. 50% on the dial of an audio taper control is only 10% of the total.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer

These days, volume controls are often designed to provide steps in dB, another logarithmic term. 1 dB is barely noticeable*, 3 dB is a significant step, and +10 dB is twice as loud.

HTH - Don

* Sitting there listening to music 1 dB is a pretty small step, just noticeable to most people. However, if you are comparing two sources, you can actually resolve much smaller steps, to perhaps 0.1 dB or less. Since "louder" almost always sounds "better" to us for various reasons, this is why level-matching is so important in comparisons. That is, with no reference, a 1 dB change does not seem large, but when comparing one source to another, 0.1 dB is routinely detected, with the source 0.1 dB louder sounding better.

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post #198 of 9688 Old 09-18-2010, 09:19 AM
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Thanks Don.

I'm considering the AV7005 and am considering the Emo's for amplification. I do have a fear though, about the high gain of those amps.

If the prepro and amp both have XLR options I want to use them. However, if the Audioholics review is true (and I don't see why it wouldn't be), I'm concerned about the amp reaching it's full output with such a small input signal. Given the Emo's high gain and the fact that it can hit max output with only 1.2V - my fear is that with a max preout voltage of 2.4V, I will lose a lot of flexibility with the volume control.

I'm concerned that very small movements of the volume control will produce large jumps in volume. I don't want it to be correspondingly loud while my volume dial still is relatively low.

Is that a legitimate concern?
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post #199 of 9688 Old 09-18-2010, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

There's nothing more than anecdotal evidence that Onkyo is any worse than Denon/Marantz in the "quality" department. People have issues with both brands, and neither company has a reputation of ignoring warranty claims or anything egregious like that. EVERY receiver/prepro has some kind of HDMI issues, that's just the nature of the FUBAR interface itself.

My Pioneer Elite has absolutely zero problems. You will need to spend some time searching in here to find an example. Meanwhile, there is a thread dedicated to fixing Onkyo daughtercards. As I understand it, it's not even Onkyo-made, but they chose to put that crap in their receivers anyway.
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post #200 of 9688 Old 09-18-2010, 10:30 AM
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@EJD: The Emos do not have significantly higher gain than anything else, and the range and precision of modern volume circuits is (WAY!) more than enough. My current AVR has a range of something like -80 to +20 or 30 dB in 0.5 dB (I think) steps; if the Emos really have 2x the gain of all other amps, that's only 3 dB. I would lose the very last 3 dB at the upper end of the range. Since that is about 30 dB (1000 times the level) above where I usually top out, it is not a big concern to me, and should not be to you. Besides, the gain is typically adjusted (trimmed) elsewhere in the AVR to match the amps. Balanced or unbalanced you will have no issues. Do not worry.

I own a Pioneer Elite and have had a few issues that a firmware update fixed. Elite's have their issues (see any of the Elite threads here, it does not take much searching) but from my perspective they are no better nor worse than any other top brand. Face it, if any of these manufacturers had serious quality issues it would be all over AVS and other forums, and the companies would fix it or not last long. It is very competitive out there... There will be some dogs now and then, but overall the quality level is pretty high.

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post #201 of 9688 Old 09-18-2010, 04:28 PM
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I just pre-ordered mine...Now the wait begins...Very much looking forward to it
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post #202 of 9688 Old 09-20-2010, 08:48 AM
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Marantz put the AV7005 back on thier site. http://us.marantz.com/Products/2290.asp Not sure why they took it down for a week?

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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post #203 of 9688 Old 09-20-2010, 08:52 AM
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I had e-mailed Marantz about this asking if there was going to be a delay in its introduction.

Never received a reply!
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post #204 of 9688 Old 09-20-2010, 09:07 AM
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i always ask this question as well over the phone and iv'e heard from mid October to early November depending on who I talked to. But last lady I talked to said we should all hear official news at CEDIA this week. Heres to hoping for Mid October!
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post #205 of 9688 Old 09-20-2010, 12:12 PM
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I have learned from past experience to go in with low expectations, I am thinking anytime before years end is a bonus.
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post #206 of 9688 Old 09-20-2010, 12:32 PM
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Gee, you're easy!
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post #207 of 9688 Old 09-20-2010, 12:33 PM
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^^^

Not cheap though..
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post #208 of 9688 Old 09-21-2010, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post

I own the AV8003 and it absolutely (to my ears) BLEW away my Integra DTC-80.1 in terms of sound quality.

Ditto (coming from the Onkyo Pro 885 aka Integra 9.8)
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post #209 of 9688 Old 09-22-2010, 08:22 AM
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I was able to listen to three pre-pro's side by side using the same support equipment at matched volume the Integra 9.8 the Marantz AV8003 and the B&K ref 70 a while back with a home theater group up here in the frozen north of Minnesota. It was the findings of the group that the winner of the group was the B&K (did them allot of good they are now out of business) but the lack of room correction and the inability to decode the new HD formats left that unit not ready for prime time. We listened to all two channel and the close second was the Marantz followed by the Integra.

I am moving from the Integra 9.8 to the AV7005 and I am very much looking forward to the move to the Marantz.
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post #210 of 9688 Old 09-22-2010, 10:34 AM
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Thanks for the comments exm and Minge on the comparison of the 3.....

I have a really rough time thinking about getting a Onkyo/Integra even though they adopt the latest tech faster then the others, and I'm glad that Marantz is coming out with the updated/successor to the 8003 especially at that price.
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