Onkyo SC5508 Surround processor [No Price Talk] - Page 12 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #331 of 2745 Old 01-01-2011, 10:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RoboRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

So you suggest to set all input to "All CH Stereo" mode despite we want to listen to DTS?

No, that is not what I suggest.

What I suggest is configuring your sources in the pre-pro so that when a stereo signal is received (such as from a commercial or movie trailer) on one of the inputs that you always listen to in multichannel (such as DTS) that the unit stays in the multichannel mode of your choice instead of automatically switching to stereo (and clicking the relays) by matrixing that stereo signal to a multichannel matrixed format.

You still get to listen to multichannel DTS.
RoboRay is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #332 of 2745 Old 01-01-2011, 01:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

The relay clicking when the unit switches between stereo and multichannel output has been an Onkyo issue for years, going at least as far back as my 885. If you didn't hear it on your 886, it's probably because you had it configured to matrix stereo sources to all channels. That's the usual way to stop the relay clicking... by setting your sources to output in All Channel Stereo, DPL II, or whatever other matrix format you prefer when a stereo input is received. This prevents the pre-pro from switching to stereo mode when a 2-channel source such as a commercial or movie trailer is played, meaning you don't get any relay clicks.

Hi Ray,

I just did an experiment using my Onkyo PR-SC886.

What you report is correct. On my CBL/SAT input I had DPL IIx Movie as my preset listening mode for stereo sources and I never heard a relay click when switching to and from stereo sources from 5.1 sources.

Then I switched my stereo source to the Stereo listening mode, I started to hear two distinct relay clicks. First the front panel display showed the "All CH Stereo" listening mode (which I believe is the factory default for stereo sources) that corresponded to the first click. Then the prepro switched to the Stereo preset that I had setup and a second click could be heard.

I found that these clicks persisted even when switching from one stereo station to another.

However, these clicks on the 866 were rather innocuous. Perhaps folks seated in my theater's rear seating row a few feet from the prepro might hear a click, but I really doubt it during normal listening situations.

Unlike this and the 80.2 thread, as far as I can tell this issue was only mentioned once by AudioBear in the Official 886 thread. Quoted below is an exchange between two forum members. It should be noted that there is a significant difference between a "pop" of speakers that Oliver reports, versus the noise of relays that AudioBear describes as a "click or pop" that doesn't bother him. (Even though Oliver's problem appears to be an entirely difference issue, I am including it for context to help understand why AudioBear sometimes refers to "pops".)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grate View Post

Hi guys,

I've had my Onkyo (without Pro, because I'm in Germany) PR-SC886 for a few weeks now, and I am really pleased with the audio performance (I upgraded from a Denon AVR-4306, which I used only as pre-amp to fire my Linn AV5125 power amplifier).

I have one problem, though, which annoys me to no end: whenever a digital audio stream ends, I get a popping noise in the rear and center speakers! When I insert a disc (DVD or Blu-ray) I sometimes get a dozen of pops and whenever I skip a chapter or even only press the mute button of the 886 I also get the popping noise! This happens not only with one source, but with all sources where the audio is connected via digital connections: from my Denon 3910 DVD player (connected via HDMI and Coax), from my LG BH200 BD/HD DVD player (HDMI), from my Pace satellite receiver (HDMI; there it also happens when I switch channels), and so on...

This is especially annoying when watching a Blu-ray with some kind of branching (like Spider-Man 2.1 or Hancock which have two versions of the film on it). The popping noise comes up during the movie when it's at a branching point.

I am only popping-free with analogue audio connections (like with the 5.1 analogue connection I have for playing SACD from the Denon 3910).

I already contacted Onkyo Germany about this and they referred me to a company in Munich which does all service related repairs for them, and they learned from me that this device even exists!

Anyway, they got back to me after speaking to a visiting engineer from Japan, and told me that this is not a commonly known problem.

However, another guy in a German home cinema forum also had the same problem with his unit in combination with the same power amp. He now routes the analogue output of the 886 through another pre-amp from Naim (don't ask me why) and he claims that now the popping noises are gone...

I'm not sure if it is even technically possible that this happens in combination with a specific power amp and not with others. But before I send my unit in for service only to get it back a few weeks later with the claim that everything is alright and the problem could not be reproduced, I thought I'd ask you guys if any of you have encountered this effect and if so, what power amps you are using...

Best regards,
Oliver

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

I have never systematically characterized it as you have but popping noises are not uncommon for me switching between inputs (SAT channels, turn on, and between sources). They even happen sometimes in the same SAT channel when it switches from stereo to 5.1 and back. The pops are not annoying to me and are not that loud but they are there. I am using balanced connectors to a D-Sonic Magnum. When I drove this same amp with a Outlaw 990 there were no pops when I switched the same sources.

I will investigate further. It will be interesting to hear what is the experience of others.

EDIT UPDATE Jan 9, 2009: I systematically studied the soft popping noises that occur every now and then on switching. I do not have them on DVD or HD sources. I do not have them on SAT sources. I have them when I use my old Sony Sat-200 tuner as an off the air digital tuner which it does pretty well. What I observe is that when a commercial comes on it may make a pop or click. The next commercial can come on with no pop. Then when it goes back to the football game (these observations were made during the BCS Championship game) there is a click or pop. Another channel didn't do this. A couple of others didn't. I think it is caused by going from stereo to DolbyD and back again and I think it's associated with signal being dropped somewhere in the chain and then coming back on abruptly. I would not nessessarily blame the pops on the Onkyo. It could be something the Sony SAT box is doing. I would be interesting to know why they happen. I watch not so much OTA TV and they are not loud so it's not a big bother but I would still like to know what's going on.

So in summary, as you point out the operation of the relays on the 886 seems to be the same as on the 5508/80.2. However, on the 886 thread only one forum member even mentioned the relay clicking which wasn't unduly annoying to him. Further I couldn't find any mention of relay noise problems on the Official 885 thread. This is in contrast to the 5508/80.2 threads where several forum members have expressed annoyance. This suggests that perhaps the relay clicking may be louder on the newer units.

Larry
LarryChanin is offline  
post #333 of 2745 Old 01-01-2011, 05:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
Craigslue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kansas
Posts: 738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

The relay clicking when the unit switches between stereo and multichannel output has been an Onkyo issue for years, going at least as far back as my 885. If you didn't hear it on your 886, it's probably because you had it configured to matrix stereo sources to all channels. That's the usual way to stop the relay clicking... by setting your sources to output in All Channel Stereo, DPL II, or whatever other matrix format you prefer when a stereo input is received. This prevents the pre-pro from switching to stereo mode when a 2-channel source such as a commercial or movie trailer is played, meaning you don't get any relay clicks.

My Integra DTR 10.5 drove me crazy with relay clicks until I switch to Dolby PL when watching Directv.
Craigslue is offline  
post #334 of 2745 Old 01-01-2011, 08:37 PM
Senior Member
 
jevansoh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern, Ohio
Posts: 471
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 47
So is it confirmed (If not, would at least "2" people please do so) that as long as you are in a Dolby PLII mode, when watching DirecTV, when programming changes to a commercial only encoded in Stereo, or even Mono I suppose, and even if the next commercial is encoded in DD, then when commercials end and regular programming resumes in DD, "NO" clicks happen?

If set in Dolby PLIIx and the program you're watching is encoded in DD, you still get DD, right? Does it show up as DD or the matrix mode on the OSD?

Do you still get clicks when rewinding, fast forwarding?

If I could get rid of ALL clicks "except" one when I click FF through the commercials and one when I click play to watch the program, on muting, input switching, and of course power up/down, I could absolutely live with it and would finally feel comfortable making the purchase.

I really need a confirmation though and am sure others would appreciate this "test" and a final answer on exactly when it will still "click" so I know exactly what to expect. (Repeatable, constant results are what I'm looking for)

My Denon only produces an audible click when powering on/off and when turning mute on/off. There is a quieter and a very brief click when switching inputs. I previously owned Harman Kardon products before my Denon 5805CI and although those weren't HDMI there was not one click, ever.

Also, is anyone using an Audyssey DSX setup with this or the sister 80.2? I don't have DSX yet, so I don't know how it works, but since you are adding 1 or 2 (Heights and/or Wides) matrixed channels, some "matrix mode" must be on at ALL times unless you only want straight stereo for 2ch music, right? So in a stereo broadcast, do you use Dolby Pro Logic to get 5.1/7.1 PLUS some DSX mode on TOP of that? How does it work for DD/5.1 material? When using Audyssey DSX due to automatically having some "mode" engaged to extract those extra channels, wouldn't this automatically "fix" the relay clicks?

Also, on a side note, can someone confirm the exact make/model of the DAC in this unit and is it exactly the same as the 80.2?

Thanks guys!

--Jason

Thanks to EVERYONE that Helps Make These Threads so Awesome!

jevansoh is online now  
post #335 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 07:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post
Also, is anyone using an Audyssey DSX setup with this or the sister 80.2? I don't have DSX yet, so I don't know how it works, but since you are adding 1 or 2 (Heights and/or Wides) matrixed channels, some "matrix mode" must be on at ALL times unless you only want straight stereo for 2ch music, right? So in a stereo broadcast, do you use Dolby Pro Logic to get 5.1/7.1 PLUS some DSX mode on TOP of that? How does it work for DD/5.1 material? When using Audyssey DSX due to automatically having some "mode" engaged to extract those extra channels, wouldn't this automatically "fix" the relay clicks?
Hi Jason,

I don't have one of these new prepros, but I have been following Chris at Audyssey on the "Official Audyssey thread". According to Chris DSX is definitely not a matrix process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post
DSX and PLIIz are based on a completely different concept. As far as I know, PLIIz is a matrix method that looks for ambient and out-of-phase content and directs it to the heights--similar to what PLIIx does for the back surrounds. DSX, is not based on a matrix approach and it does not just look at ambient information. It uses a synthesis algorithm to generate content based on what it sees in all channels.
This may sound like semantics, but having a matrix process active is not the key to minimizing this clicking issue. The key is to set up listening modes so that the same number of speakers are active regardless of the source. So for folks with 7.1 setups it makes sense to use DPL IIx because it will always maintain 7.1 active speakers regardless of whether the source is stereo or 5.1 or 7.1. Other surround processes will work as well.

DSX will not work on a pure stereo single. DSX requires surround information to work. This surround can come from 5.1 or 7.1 discrete sources or it can come from stereo with a matrix listening mode to create the surround information.

So my guess is that using DSX will result in the same situation with regards to relay clicks. If DSX is enabled with an unprocessed stereo signal then you will get straight stereo with no DSX and clicking when switching to multi-channel sources. If you have DSX enabled with an upconverted stereo signal then you will have DSX with no clicking.

Larry
LarryChanin is offline  
post #336 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 08:34 AM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

No, that is not what I suggest.

What I suggest is configuring your sources in the pre-pro so that when a stereo signal is received (such as from a commercial or movie trailer) on one of the inputs that you always listen to in multichannel (such as DTS) that the unit stays in the multichannel mode of your choice instead of automatically switching to stereo (and clicking the relays) by matrixing that stereo signal to a multichannel matrixed format.

You still get to listen to multichannel DTS.

The input i listen to multichannel (DTS) is set to DTS always so i don't really understand what to config in the Onkyo.
In addition, the click is also when i use the play, pause, FF/RWD options in my source, actually every function cause the clicks so i guess multichannel setting won't help for that
KRP-600M is offline  
post #337 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 09:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

No, that is not what I suggest.

What I suggest is configuring your sources in the pre-pro so that when a stereo signal is received (such as from a commercial or movie trailer) on one of the inputs that you always listen to in multichannel (such as DTS) that the unit stays in the multichannel mode of your choice instead of automatically switching to stereo (and clicking the relays) by matrixing that stereo signal to a multichannel matrixed format.

You still get to listen to multichannel DTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

The input i listen to multichannel (DTS) is set to DTS always so i don't really understand what to config in the Onkyo.

Hi,

Ray's explanation is right on the money.

Perhaps you are not aware that the DTS listening mode (along with Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and others) do not upconvert stereo sources to multichannel. Therefore, you will hear relay clicking as content switches from stereo to multichannel and vice versa.

Using the Dolby Digital IIx series of listening modes, or the DTS Neo:6 series of listening modes, or the Neural Surround listening series of listening modes are examples of listening mode presets that can upconvert stereo to multichannel, 5.1 or 7.1. The "All CH Stereo" listening mode can ensure that all of your speakers remain active even with a just a two-channel source.

Larry
LarryChanin is offline  
post #338 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 10:00 AM
Senior Member
 
moparfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 361
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
And my NAD M15 to a lesser degree. I would do as Larry said and just had it output pcm and always used Dolby PLII to keep it from clicking. No big deal.
moparfan is offline  
post #339 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 10:19 AM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi,

Ray's explanation is right on the money.

Perhaps you are not aware that the DTS listening mode (along with Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and others) do not upconvert stereo sources to multichannel. Therefore, you will hear relay clicking as content switches from stereo to multichannel and vice versa.

Using the Dolby Digital IIx series of listening modes, or the DTS Neo:6 series of listening modes, or the Neural Surround listening series of listening modes are examples of listening mode presets that can upconvert stereo to multichannel, 5.1 or 7.1. The "All CH Stereo" listening mode can ensure that all of your speakers remain active even with a just a two-channel source.
Larry

So I should change all listening modes (Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and others) to "All CH Stereo" mode so that all speakers are active and when the input signal is DTS or DD and others the 5508 will be changed automatically to the appropriate signal but since all speakers are active there won't be relay click to active them?
Will this also prevent the relay clicks when i use play/stop etc.?

Thanks
KRP-600M is offline  
post #340 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 11:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

If set in Dolby PLIIx and the program you're watching is encoded in DD, you still get DD, right? Does it show up as DD or the matrix mode on the OSD?

Hi Jason,

You may be confusing two concepts.

We are dealing with input sources, such as Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, etc. Then there are listening modes, such as Dolby ProLogic IIx, which in this case happens to be a surround processing approach that creates additional surround channels. It doesn't transcode the source to another format, it provides post processing to create additional channels. Ultimately whether the source is Dobly Digital or DTS the prepro decodes it to PCM.

So we are comparing apples and oranges. For example, a 5.1 DTS source can be upconverted to 7.1 on playback by Dolby ProLogic IIx. You don't need to apply a DTS surround process, even though DTS offers one, DTS Neo:6.

What may be confusing our understanding is that there are listening modes that are labeled similarly to source formats. For example, DTS-HD Master Audio is a source format and a listening mode. If you select DTS-HD Master Audio listening mode when listening to a 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio source, the source will be decoded without additional surround processing. Therefore, you will get 5.1 on playback. However, I have a 7.1 setup and I like to upconvert everything, including lossless formats, to 7.1. So I set the Dolby ProLogic IIx listening mode to all of my source formats, including DTS-HD Master Audio.

So what happens is when I have a 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio source it is upconverted to 7.1, with the surround back channels being derived via matrix processing. Now if I happen to have a 7.1 discrete DTS-HD Master Audio source, even though the listening mode preset is Dolby ProLogic IIx the prepro ignores that and routes the original discrete surround back channels to the speakers and no matrix processing is invoked.

It appears that the 5508 operates similar to my 886 when displaying source format information. The On Screen Display only shows the listening mode, not the source format. By pressing the Display button on the remote control or the Display button on the front of the unit, under the door, this will show the source format and some detail about it on the front panel display. Then the display will return to showing the listening mode.

NOTE:
The prepro's manual states that the listening modes and source formats is displayed on the front panel via those tiny lights immediately to the left of the main display panel. At my age I find they are hard to read and frankly the manual doesn't tell us how to differentiate between the listening modes and the formats. So a better means of confirming the source format is to press the Display button as I described in the previous paragraph.

Larry
LarryChanin is offline  
post #341 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 11:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RoboRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

So in summary, as you point out the operation of the relays on the 886 seems to be the same as on the 5508/80.2. However, on the 886 thread only one forum member even mentioned the relay clicking which wasn't unduly annoying to him. Further I couldn't find any mention of relay noise problems on the Official 885 thread. This is in contrast to the 5508/80.2 threads where several forum members have expressed annoyance. This suggests that perhaps the relay clicking may be louder on the newer units.

The clicks may be louder on the newer models (I haven't done a comparison). My 885 clicks if I let it switch in and out of stereo mode, but it's not disruptively loud, just a little annoying.

FWIW, I seem to recall the "clicking" discussion back in the xx5/xx6 model time-frame mostly taking place in the receiver threads. It was initially believed to be the amplifier relays producing the clicks until pre-pro owners began reporting clicking as well.

It's hard to believe that after all these years, Onkyo could be letting the problem get worse instead of better, but regressions do happen.
RoboRay is offline  
post #342 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 11:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RoboRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

So I should change all listening modes (Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and others) to "All CH Stereo" mode so that all speakers are active and when the input signal is DTS or DD and others the 5508 will be changed automatically to the appropriate signal but since all speakers are active there won't be relay click to active them?
Will this also prevent the relay clicks when i use play/stop etc.?

Thanks

On my 885 (and, I presume, on your 5508) there is a Listening Mode Preset menu under the Settings menu that allows you to specify output processing options for each individual sound format for every separate input.

This would allow you to set, say, your Cable/Sat TV input to use DD for DD 5.1 signals but automatically switch to All Channel Stereo (or another matrix format you prefer) for 2-channel signals. This would prevent the pre-pro from switching to stereo mode and should prevent the relay clicks.

If your source device switches to stereo output mode when no audio signal is being produced (like during Stop or Fast Forward function), this may also prevent clicking then.
RoboRay is offline  
post #343 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 11:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

So I should change all listening modes (Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and others) to "All CH Stereo" mode so that all speakers are active and when the input signal is DTS or DD and others the 5508 will be changed automatically to the appropriate signal but since all speakers are active there won't be relay click to active them?

Hi,

I don't.

I like to use Dolby ProLogic IIx on all formats. As I suggested you could also use DTS Neo:6, or Neural Surround.

Some folks might like to preset their Stereo sources to "All CH Stereo" if they don't like the way the derived surround channels sound. To me this listening mode is only useful in party situations.

Any of the above surround processing listening modes should prevent clicking when listening to satellite/cable.

Quote:


Will this also prevent the relay clicks when i use play/stop etc.?

Thanks

I have not deliberately experimented with play/stop etc., to check this, but in normal listening my attention has never been drawn to relay clicking noises when pausing or playing discs.

Larry
LarryChanin is offline  
post #344 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 12:22 PM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have tried and it didn't help, each act on the HTPC, Blu Ray caused the HDMI in the processor to look for a signal and the result is relay clicks.
For example, when i push the stop button in the HTPC the the processor lose signal and the HDMI start flickering till it find the signal type and this makes the clicks. When i push the play button the HDMI start work and the relay click is back.

As i could realized, the click came from the HDMI option on the 5508, each act i make cause the HDMI to look for the signal type and the result is clicks...
Looks to me as a poor design as if I set the input to HDMI it shouldn't looks for signal type every time i do something in the source

If there is option to set the input with steady HDMI i.e. the 5508 won't look for signal type every action in the source most of the relays click will gone!
KRP-600M is offline  
post #345 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 01:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RoboRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

I have tried and it didn't help, each act on the HTPC, Blu Ray caused the HDMI in the processor to look for a signal and the result is relay clicks.
For example, when i push the stop button in the HTPC the the processor lose signal and the HDMI start flickering till it find the signal type and this makes the clicks. When i push the play button the HDMI start work and the relay click is back.

As i could realized, the click came from the HDMI option on the 5508, each act i make cause the HDMI to look for the signal type and the result is clicks...
Looks to me as a poor design as if I set the input to HDMI it shouldn't looks for signal type every time i do something in the source

If there is option to set the input with steady HDMI i.e. the 5508 won't look for signal type every action in the source most of the relays click will gone!

Mmmm, yeah. If your HTPC is breaking the HDMI link and renegotiating a new handshake every time you push a button, this isn't going to help.

Of course, the HTPC shouldn't be doing that. HDMI sinks, including your pre-pro, can only "hold" a specific signal type so long as the HDMI source is sending it. If the source breaks the signal, the sink has no choice but to start over looking for a new one. If it didn't do that, and the HTPC switched to a different resolution or audio mode, the pre-pro wouldn't be able to produce any sound or pass the image along to your display. HDMI isn't like the old days where a source just "sends" a signal and the sink device "receives" it. HDMI is an active computer network and requires communication in both directions, with all devices continuing to talk to each other. If one of them breaks the chain, it's broken and they all have to talk to one another again to create a new chain from scratch.

Although the symptoms of the problem are showing up in the processor as relay clicking, the actual source of the problem appears to be your HTPC's misbehavior.
RoboRay is offline  
post #346 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 09:12 PM
Senior Member
 
jevansoh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern, Ohio
Posts: 471
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

On my 885 (and, I presume, on your 5508) there is a Listening Mode Preset menu under the Settings menu that allows you to specify output processing options for each individual sound format for every separate input.

This would allow you to set, say, your Cable/Sat TV input to use DD for DD 5.1 signals but automatically switch to All Channel Stereo (or another matrix format you prefer) for 2-channel signals. This would prevent the pre-pro from switching to stereo mode and should prevent the relay clicks.

If your source device switches to stereo output mode when no audio signal is being produced (like during Stop or Fast Forward function), this may also prevent clicking then.

So by doing this, on your 885, have you gotten rid of ALL clicking? If not, exactly WHEN/Doing WHAT causes you to hear clicks now?

Can a few people try this (Especially DirecTV users) and CONFIRM the results by posting here?

There is more activity in the 80.2 thread but I don't want to cross post plus I'm new to the AVS Forums but I think this discussion might just yield us some more positive results (Simply because there is more activity/more owners) over in the sister 80.2 thread.

Larry, what do you think about either moving, copying, or at least advising the folks in the sister thread about this discussion to get some more input?

Thanks,

--J

Thanks to EVERYONE that Helps Make These Threads so Awesome!

jevansoh is online now  
post #347 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 09:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RoboRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

So by doing this, on your 885, have you gotten rid of ALL clicking? If not, exactly WHEN/Doing WHAT causes you to hear clicks now?

I honestly haven't noticed (or even tried to pay attention to) the clicking in a couple of years. It only happens one time when switching inputs between multichannel sources and stereo sources and I've long ago tuned out that single click. A click on source change isn't a big deal to me, me anyway. It's the audio format-change clicks that are the problem, and I have none at all on the 885 with it configured to always use some type of matrix post-processing for stereo signals received on multichannel inputs, such as Cable/Sat TV and DVD/BluRay.

I'm using the Neural 5.1 processing right now for my 5.1 speaker system. I used DPL IIx back when I had a 7.1 system connected to the 885. It only takes a few minutes to configure the Listening Mode Presets menu, so it's certainly worth trying on the 5508.
RoboRay is offline  
post #348 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Senior Member
 
jevansoh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern, Ohio
Posts: 471
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jason,

You may be confusing two concepts.

We are dealing with input sources, such as Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, etc. Then there are listening modes, such as Dolby ProLogic IIx, which in this case happens to be a surround processing approach that creates additional surround channels. It doesn't transcode the source to another format, it provides post processing to create additional channels. Ultimately whether the source is Dobly Digital or DTS the prepro decodes it to PCM.

Larry, thanks for the reply!

I understand how DD, DTS-HD MA, and other surround encoded formats work, as do I understand what Dolby Pro Logix IIx does, but being a Denon owner and having not yet owned an Onkyo/Integra I do appreciate you explaining exactly what the difference is especially relating to the listening modes as I have no such (labeled) feature/function on my current pre-pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

So we are comparing apples and oranges. For example, a 5.1 DTS source can be upconverted to 7.1 on playback by Dolby ProLogic IIx. You don't need to apply a DTS surround process, even though DTS offers one, DTS Neo:6.

What may be confusing our understanding is that there are listening modes that are labeled similarly to source formats. For example, DTS-HD Master Audio is a source format and a listening mode. If you select DTS-HD Master Audio listening mode when listening to a 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio source, the source will be decoded without additional surround processing. Therefore, you will get 5.1 on playback. However, I have a 7.1 setup and I like to upconvert everything, including lossless formats, to 7.1. So I set the Dolby ProLogic IIx listening mode to all of my source formats, including DTS-HD Master Audio.

This is exactly what I do. It may be a simple matter of semantics, but are we actually "upconverting" to 7.1 from a 5.1 encoded source? Or are we matrixing (Dolby Pro Logic IIx) the surround channels from the 5.1 source into the rear surround (7.1) speakers? I am a little confused as to exactly what happens and how we arrive at the actual audio that is played out of the rear surround speakers when listening to a 5.1 source on a 7.1 setup. Is it simply a carbon copy of the side speakers played into the rear speakers or is it matrixed/derived audio from the surround speakers into the rear speakers, or even matrixed/derived audio from ALL 5.1 speakers (Not necessarily all at the same time of course) that is played into the rear speakers?

I actually should correct myself on exactly what "I do." Admittedly since I don't know exactly how the rear speakers' audio is derived I tend to use the THX setting (Ultra 2) to get 5.1 encoded content into my 7.1 system and since THX is also a re-eq I always leave my Audyssey on "Flat" as Audyssey is always on and I am a fanboy but I haven't experimented much with Dolby Pro Logix IIx in any way other than using it Plus THX, also with Audyssey Flat, to get 7.1 out of 2 channel content.

If there is a better way, I'd surely try it as I always wish to experiment! I sure would like to have a very brief and concise definition of exactly what each and every surround sound post processing format does as all I feel comfortable stating that I totally understand is the difference in how each original format is encoded, what it does, and what I can expect, but since almost nothing is in original 7.1 yet, it would be nice to know how each mode works and what each is doing and what each format pulls from each channel (and which channels) to "create" a 7.1 experience.

I only listen to 7 channel stereo when listening to Sirius/XM Radio and sometimes for CD listening, however, and obviously know what it's doing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

So what happens is when I have a 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio source it is upconverted to 7.1, with the surround back channels being derived via matrix processing. Now if I happen to have a 7.1 discrete DTS-HD Master Audio source, even though the listening mode preset is Dolby ProLogic IIx the prepro ignores that and routes the original discrete surround back channels to the speakers and no matrix processing is invoked.

Nice to know it ignores the setting if you have encoded source material in 7.1. So since you don't have the 5508, but do have a model with clicking (I think that's how I understand it) by ALWAYS having ALL 7.x speakers being used, have you in effect resolved the "clicking" on your unit and do you believe this would in effect resolve the clicking on the 5508/80.2? That's the $64,000 question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

It appears that the 5508 operates similar to my 866 when displaying source format information. The On Screen Display only shows the listening mode, not the source format. By pressing the Display button on the remote control or the Display button on the front of the unit, under the door, this will show the source format and some detail about it on the front panel display. Then the display will return to showing the listening mode.

NOTE:
The prepro's manual states that the listening modes and source formats is displayed on the front panel via those tiny lights immediately to the left of the main display panel. At my age I find they are hard to read and frankly the manual doesn't tell us how to differentiate between the listening modes and the formats. So a better means of confirming the source format is to press the Display button as I described in the previous paragraph.

Larry

Nice to know this, too. Thanks for the heads up. I always want to be able to know exactly what's going on instead of guessing or trusting my ears. I not only have bad eyesight but my unit will be in a different room, so this is imperative and I'm glad they thought of that as an option.

Thanks,

--J

Thanks to EVERYONE that Helps Make These Threads so Awesome!

jevansoh is online now  
post #349 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 09:59 PM
Senior Member
 
jevansoh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southern, Ohio
Posts: 471
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jason,

I don't have one of these new prepros, but I have been following Chris at Audyssey on the "Official Audyssey thread". According to Chris DSX is definitely not a matrix process.

This may sound like semantics, but having a matrix process active is not the key to minimizing this clicking issue. The key is to set up listening modes so that the same number of speakers are active regardless of the source. So for folks with 7.1 setups it makes sense to use DPL IIx because it will always maintain 7.1 active speakers regardless of whether the source is stereo or 5.1 or 7.1. Other surround processes will work as well.

I follow the "Official Audyssey Thread" religiously myself and you've helped me over there, too.

It was a matter of semantics on my end as to referring to matrixing re: DSX. I know that's not how DSX works, also as per Chris, but since he doesn't explain to us (Rightly so of course as I'm sure the competition watches that thread as closely as we do as every now and then we get a little peek into how Audyssey works ) exactly how it does work, I chose that as the term to use so everyone would understand what I meant so as to get my point across and not confuse. I didn't succeed, lol.

I simply meant that when using DSX you are AUTOMATICALLY "using some technology to derive information from a 5.1 or 7.1 source using fuzzy logic to create additional channels of information/audio" and matrixing was simply easier to type. My point was that by doing so, since all 7.1/9.1/11.1 "channels" were being used, I was wondering if by using an Audyssey DSX mode, it, by definition, would resolve the relay clicks and was asking if people using a DSX setup also had relay clicking (as long as a DSX mode is engaged of course) or if there is no relay clicking when using DSX.

To be clear, I ALWAYS use all 7.1 speakers (except the rare occasion I listen to 2CH Audio (CD) at which point in time I wouldn't care if there was ONE click going into that mode and the corresponding CD Input and ONE click back out of it into a Sat/Blu-Ray input and =/>7.1 "mode") and if I can assign listening modes to all inputs that will keep the original 5.1 DD signal and create the extra 2 channels for my 7.1 setup or if I happen upon a commercial or other broadcast only encoded in 2CH still using the same surround mode to output audio to all 7.1 channels which will in effect do away with ALL clicking, then sign me up!

I'm simply having trouble verifying if this is the case, can be done, and if others have done this successfully.

Although I have a dedicated theater, I find that 95% of all of my viewing/listening takes place there, which means I will watch my DirecTV programs which are 2CH Stereo, DD 5.1, and watch my Blu-Rays which are DTS-HD MA, TrueHD, etc, plus the trailers/menus/extras which are normally 2CH Stereo, and as long as listening modes can be assigned so I ALWAYS have audio coming out of ALL speakers, and that does away with the clicking, then I'm fine.

I understand there will still be clicking on power on/off, mute, and switching inputs, but does assigning the proper listening modes now totally get rid of ALL OTHER CLICKING? IE: Changing channels, fast forward/rewind, going from a 5.1DD source to a 2CH Stereo commercial, etc, etc?

Again, it's also not just the minor irritation of the "clicking NOISE" that I am worried about as the unit will be in a totally separate room and my dedicated theater is sound proofed (Okay, not perfectly, but 95%) anyway, it's the implication of the "mechanical" nature of said clicking and the fact that it worries me that over time incessant "Clicking" will cause PHYSICAL HARM to the unit. That is my concern and even if I'm told it can happen 1 billion times before failure, I see that simply as a ticking time bomb, especially coming from a flagship unit that has never clicked once on anything except when muting. I'm just anal retentive that way.

I must say, although I can't get confirmation from anyone (Would love to have this conversation copied over to the 80.2 thread or have them invited to read this conversation over here, but don't know how best to go about it, hint hint ) that the clicking can be/has been "resolved" it does sound promising.

Exactly which model are you using, does it have clicking, have you resolved it by assigning these listening modes, and does using Audyssey DSX, (assuming you do) simply by definition, using "fuzzy logic" to derive additional channels (not matrixing) have anything to do with getting rid of (or causing??) any fewer/more relay clicking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

DSX will not work on a pure stereo single. DSX requires surround information to work. This surround can come from 5.1 or 7.1 discrete sources or it can come from stereo with a matrix listening mode to create the surround information.

I thought you could indeed get DSX from a 2CH source although Chris said he doesn't recommend it and it is of course "best" to use it with a 5.1/7.1 encoded source.

Thanks,

--J

Thanks to EVERYONE that Helps Make These Threads so Awesome!

jevansoh is online now  
post #350 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 10:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

This is exactly what I do. It may be a simple matter of semantics, but are we actually "upconverting" to 7.1 from a 5.1 encoded source? Or are we matrixing (Dolby Pro Logic IIx) the surround channels from the 5.1 source into the rear surround (7.1) speakers? I am a little confused as to exactly what happens and how we arrive at the actual audio that is played out of the rear surround speakers when listening to a 5.1 source on a 7.1 setup. Is it simply a carbon copy of the side speakers played into the rear speakers or is it matrixed/derived audio from the surround speakers into the rear speakers, or even matrixed/derived audio from ALL 5.1 speakers (Not necessarily all at the same time of course) that is played into the rear speakers?

Hi Jason,

I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction you are making. Dolby Pro Logic IIx is a matrix process that can be used to upconvert 5.1 content to 7.1. I don't have an in depth knowledge on how it works, but it is not merely copying the surrounds to the surround back channels. It is basically extracting in-phase content in the surrounds and steering it to the surround back speakers.

Quote:


I sure would like to have a very brief and concise definition of exactly what each and every surround sound post processing format does as all I feel comfortable stating that I totally understand is the difference in how each original format is encoded, what it does, and what I can expect, but since almost nothing is in original 7.1 yet, it would be nice to know how each mode works and what each is doing and what each format pulls from each channel (and which channels) to "create" a 7.1 experience.

The Onkyo manual provides a brief description of each listening mode. You can download a copy from their website, but its not going to explain how the surround channels are derived.

According to Blu-raystats.com 5.5% of all released Blu-ray discs are 7.1 discrete.

Quote:


So since you don't have the 5508, but do have a model with clicking (I think that's how I understand it) by ALWAYS having ALL 7.x speakers being used, have you in effect resolved the "clicking" on your unit and do you believe this would in effect resolve the clicking on the 5508/80.2? That's the $64,000 question!

I have done a brief test with my cable provider and I do not hear clicking when setting a 7.1 surround listening mode. As I mentioned earlier, even when I do select a listening mode where I hearing clicking, it is so soft as to not be a problem. I do not know whether the loudness of the clicking on my 886 is comparable to the 5508.

Larry
LarryChanin is offline  
post #351 of 2745 Old 01-02-2011, 11:41 PM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

Mmmm, yeah. If your HTPC is breaking the HDMI link and renegotiating a new handshake every time you push a button, this isn't going to help.

Of course, the HTPC shouldn't be doing that. HDMI sinks, including your pre-pro, can only "hold" a specific signal type so long as the HDMI source is sending it. If the source breaks the signal, the sink has no choice but to start over looking for a new one. If it didn't do that, and the HTPC switched to a different resolution or audio mode, the pre-pro wouldn't be able to produce any sound or pass the image along to your display. HDMI isn't like the old days where a source just "sends" a signal and the sink device "receives" it. HDMI is an active computer network and requires communication in both directions, with all devices continuing to talk to each other. If one of them breaks the chain, it's broken and they all have to talk to one another again to create a new chain from scratch.

Although the symptoms of the problem are showing up in the processor as relay clicking, the actual source of the problem appears to be your HTPC's misbehavior.

Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense... do you or other users have any suggestion for me how to fix my HTPC misbehavior so that it won't switched to a different resolution or audio mode and/or won't breaking the HDMI link and renegotiating a new handshake every time I push a button?
This help would be much appreciated

Thanks
KRP-600M is offline  
post #352 of 2745 Old 01-03-2011, 11:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RoboRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post
Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense... do you or other users have any suggestion for me how to fix my HTPC misbehavior so that it won't switched to a different resolution or audio mode and/or won't breaking the HDMI link and renegotiating a new handshake every time I push a button?
This help would be much appreciated
Sorry, I really don't know much about HTPC usage. It could be simply a setting that you can change, or a driver problem, or even a hardware issue with your video card.

You may want to visit the HTPC forum to see if anyone there has ideas on how to prevent the HDMI handshake from reocurring every time you do anything with the HTPC.
RoboRay is offline  
post #353 of 2745 Old 01-04-2011, 05:08 AM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
As i mentioned earlier the 5508 has the ability to path through HDMI at standby mode but then the power consumption will increase up to 50 watt (I assume this is not really standby mode).
Do you think it is safe to use this function or it can short the unit's lifetime and/or cause problems?
KRP-600M is offline  
post #354 of 2745 Old 01-07-2011, 02:52 AM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

As i mentioned earlier the 5508 has the ability to path through HDMI at standby mode but then the power consumption will increase up to 50 watt (I assume this is not really standby mode).
Do you think it is safe to use this function or it can short the unit's lifetime and/or cause problems?

Someone?
KRP-600M is offline  
post #355 of 2745 Old 01-07-2011, 06:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,801
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 272 Post(s)
Liked: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post

As i mentioned earlier the 5508 has the ability to path through HDMI at standby mode but then the power consumption will increase up to 50 watt (I assume this is not really standby mode).
Do you think it is safe to use this function or it can short the unit's lifetime and/or cause problems?

It is not a true standby mode.
I tried it with my NR808 and it also used 50 watts.
It the unit is enclosed, then I would make sure it has sufficient ventilation.

I was using a smart power strip to run a fan which now thinks the unit is on. Which it really is. This is a pretty bad design in the new "green" era.
I think Yamaha is advertising a separate power supply to minimize power usage during standby pass through mode.

I expect we will see this in next years models.

The power usage bugged me. At 15 cents per KW, that amounts to $5.40. At 20 cents per kilowatt it amounts to $7.20 per month. So we are talking between $65 and $86 per year. 24 hour power usage adds up.

Stupid design, You could probably pay for a smart HDMI switch in a year.

- Rich

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
RichB is offline  
post #356 of 2745 Old 01-11-2011, 06:24 PM
Newbie
 
diversifiedesi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi to all!

I have been having major issues with my 5508 when switching sources. Every time I switch sources there is audio output but no video. If I power the 5508 down, then power back up, the video output will return most of the time, but after several days of this, I can't get video from my Directv receiver anymore.
My sources are Oppo BDP-93, Directv HR-24, PS3 and Xbox 360. My projector is the JVC RS-60. I have tried all HDMI output formats on the Onkyo with no success. Anyone else experiencing this issue?
diversifiedesi is offline  
post #357 of 2745 Old 01-11-2011, 06:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jmschnur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: VA MD DC area
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
I would check the cable from dtv. Also try another input on the onkyo.
jmschnur is offline  
post #358 of 2745 Old 01-12-2011, 04:51 AM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
While the SC5508 has no signal input, for example when the BD player is on Pause mode, or the SC5508 is just turn on it passes from Digital mode to Analog mode and vice versa while the BD player play again.

Is there option to set the 5508 to remain in Digital mode all the time even when there is no signal input so that it won't move to the Analog?
KRP-600M is offline  
post #359 of 2745 Old 01-12-2011, 05:04 AM
Senior Member
 
atledreier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
No.

"Unplugging the signal cable is pretty much the ultimate in component isolation. Now if you removed the AC power and it still did it you should look for the little blond girl saying "they're he-re."
atledreier is offline  
post #360 of 2745 Old 01-12-2011, 05:08 AM
Member
 
KRP-600M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What the reason is?
KRP-600M is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Onkyo Pr Sc5507 Pre Amplifier Home Theater Av Controller Preamp 9 2 Channel New
Gear in this thread - Sc5507 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off