"Official" Yamaha RX-A1000/RX-A2000/RX-A3000 thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 06:10 PM
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Why should I buy a Yahama RX-A2000 or RX-A3000 versus comparable AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Onkyo or Pioneer? My last two AVRs have been a Marantz SR7002 and a Denon AVR-3802, but I've never owned Yamaha and I am in the market.


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post #152 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Kind of a vague question. I don't think I can help. But I can say a few things.

First off, in a sense, they are all good brands. If you start making too many bad products, people will stop buying. I assume they know this (but sometimes manfufactuers forget, like Toyota.)

I have had good experience with Yamaha. I have had few failures. Except for a few minor HDMI issues, and HDMI issues are not unique to Yamaha, my Yamaha receivers have worked very well.

I feel with no proof Yamaha is a bit more solid, QC-wise, than Onkyo. Denon seems to be on par with Yamaha, again, just based on anecdotal evidence.

The Adventage line is too new for feedback. As Yamaha claims quite a bit of redesign, I would want to wait for early adopters to give their feedback. Making sure they are stable. Receivers are now so complex they often have bugs. Sometimes they are fixed, sometimes not.

If Aventage is like the 3900/Z7, it's internet updatable. That's a big plus compared to brands which are not.

Yamaha does not seem to give you the most power for the buck. Their sound quality, which is subjective, is usually looked at favorably by reviewers. Their latest GUIs have been easy to use. Their network feature used to suck based on my experience with the Z7. I would hope they have worked on it.

I guess that's about it. I am happy with my Yamaha Z7. Is there a comparable Denon, Onkyo or Marantz I would prefer? I can't say.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #153 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

While I'm going to wait until the RX-A3000 is in stock before ordering, you can pre-order the RX-A3000 today from Abt for $1,570 with free shipping (add sales tax if your in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, or Wisconsin).

Is this through their site or did you call them?
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post #154 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 09:10 PM
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I think I might trade my 667 for a 1000 or 2000 and hope to save my sanity. Going to Thailand in Nov so have to save my pennies. The new units should be easy to find in a couple months.

I understand about programmable remotes, I have a Pronto Pro 9400. The problem is that discreet codes aren't always available. For example, I want to set up the 667 for 2-channel sound. I found that the 667 still utilizes the subwoofer if fed a multi-channel signal. No help there. Sure you can go through menus and reconfigure, but there is no one button solution like the older units that had Memories. I also found that turning off Dolby Digital in Directv's boxes feeds two channels to the 667, then the unit DOES turn off output to the woofer! There is still a problem in that there is no discrete code to toggle DD in the D* boxes. Again, it's digging through menus to make a simple change.

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post #155 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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The 667 does not have a Pure Direct mode? That usually shuts off the bass management.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #156 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 09:30 PM
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3067 preview from Japan(with pics):

http://www.stereosound.co.jp/hivi/de...ature_847.html

BD-A1010/CD-S1000/PF60
HTR-6290/A-S1000/KDL46V5100
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BD - 242
HD - 7
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post #157 of 8843 Old 08-25-2010, 11:25 PM
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Is it me or does it seem only North America gets the new Aventage line? Also on the 3067 preview photos I noticed no 5th foot? Marketing at its finest?
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post #158 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

The 667 does not have a Pure Direct mode? That usually shuts off the bass management.

Thanks. I'll check that out.

Gene
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post #159 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 04:33 AM
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Booooooooooooooohisssssssssssssss.

The A3000 manual (which would have ALL the functions of the other models) shows no way to force 24 Hz mode. This is critical to making video smoothing technologies such as MotionFlow and AutoMotionPlus (AMP) not stutter, even with 30/60 FPS video.

Looks like this also means that half of what I wanted SCENE for does not even exist on these AVRs.

My Mac Pro can force 24 Hz at 1920x1080, but unfortunately the PS3 cannot (it only enables 24 Hz when material specifically calls for it). Le sigh.

Unless I'm proven wrong, I may as well just look for a pre/pro and set up the non-front speakers with some Emotivas.

This sure put a damper on my good day.

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post #160 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy Tia View Post

The A3000 manual (which would have ALL the functions of the other models) shows no way to force 24 Hz mode. This is critical to making video smoothing technologies such as MotionFlow and AutoMotionPlus (AMP) not stutter, even with 30/60 FPS video.

Surely 30/60fps video is going to look smoother if passed to the display at its original frame rate. I don't see how you can get smooth video by first converting 30/60fps to 24fps.
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post #161 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

3067 preview from Japan(with pics):
http://www.stereosound.co.jp/hivi/de...ature_847.html

Translating that page confirms that the 2067/3067 (A2000/3000) have two DSPs while the 1067 (A1000) has only one, which limits the processing on the lower model when it also has to decode DTS-HD MA, and limits it to 48kHz when certain types of processing are used.

They also still claim the 3067 has the DSD1796 DACs used on the Z11, so perhaps the A3000 also does (even though it's not mentioned anywhere).
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post #162 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Surely 30/60fps video is going to look smoother if passed to the display at its original frame rate. I don't see how you can get smooth video by first converting 30/60fps to 24fps.

You got a Samsung TV with a 120 hz AMP mode? Try a DVD at its native 60 FPS rate and AMP set to anything higher than Clear. You'll get stutter. Lots and lots of stutter. Now force 24 Hz from the DVD player source (in my case, a computer). Only video frames synced to the current refresh rate will display. AMP will then utilize interpolation of every other frame (something it can't do properly with 60 FPS material because 60 FPS = 1:1 ratio to refresh rate while 24 FPS = 2.5:1, leaving plenty of time to process the video frame), and creates smooth video.

I used to have nothing but stutter with AMP's smoothing, then hearrean (finally) clued me in to forcing 24 Hz mode, which lets AMP perform at its fullest with almost no stutter at all, and very tolerable judder (which can be manipulated in Custom mode for AMP).

The reason this works? There is no conversion from 60 FPS to 24 FPS (reverse 3:2 pulldown). You sacrifice some of the video material, use interpolation on what's left, and end up with smoother video than the original source, with nominal judder (again, this you can manipulate to your liking).

The reason AMP can't smooth 60 FPS video is very simple. At 60 FPS, there is a 1:1 ratio between refresh rate and frame rate. That leaves....drumroll....zero time to process the frame data for interpolation. What you get is initially smoothed video, then it sort of "glides" at in increasingly unnatural rate (like a crescendo, only visually in terms of speed), and BAM! Video halts, and you get stutter until the TV's processor can re-sync itself with the incoming frame data. At 60 FPS, only Clear works properly as a setting for AMP. This is because AMP interpolates at the following rates:

Clear: Key frame = every sixth frame. Drops 5th frame and injects interpolated frame.

Standard: Key frame = every fourth frame. Drops 3rd frame and injects interpolated frame.

Smooth: Key frame = adjacent frames (back to back). Interpolates frame data and injects new frame between the original two frames. Because of 60 FPS being 1:1 correlation between refresh rate, no room to inject new frame, so AMP must drop every other second key frame, causing the "hurry up and wait" stutter.

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post #163 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Thud2 View Post

Noooooooooooooo! No man, don't do it! First it was CD, now MP3 we're being conditioned to accept lower and lower quality reproduction. A study by Stanford University Music Professor Jonathan Berger showed that students now actually seem to prefer the 'sizzle' sounds that MP3s bring to music. Only analog plays it like the musician made it.

Thanks for the sanity check,
Really, I don't think I ever will get rid of the records. But the Mrs. will never stop trying!

.... really rethinking the Aventage now in favor of a phono preamp. Any recommendations anyone?

(it's a lot of extra dough to shell out for a receiver JUST for the phono input, when it includes all sorts of other junk I have no use for. At this point, I just need 3d readiness, 2 zones and a minimum of 3 component inputs. I don't think such a thing exists.)
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post #164 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy Tia View Post

Try a DVD at its native 60 FPS rate and AMP set to anything higher than Clear. You'll get stutter. Lots and lots of stutter. Now force 24 Hz from the DVD player source (in my case, a computer).

That's different because you're talking about a DVD movie where the source material is 24fps. You want the player to output 24Hz if the source material is 24Hz, but if the player outputs 30/60Hz instead then I don't think you can reasonably expect the receiver to be able to force it back to 24Hz.

The player and the display need to negotiate the proper format, or sometimes it's required to force the player to output 24Hz. But the receiver's job is just to stay out of the way and not interfere with this, rather than try to do frame rate conversion.
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post #165 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

That's different because you're talking about a DVD movie where the source material is 24fps. You want the player to output 24Hz if the source material is 24Hz, but if the player outputs 30/60Hz instead then I don't think you can reasonably expect the receiver to be able to force it back to 24Hz.

The player and the display need to negotiate the proper format, or sometimes it's required to force the player to output 24Hz. But the receiver's job is just to stay out of the way and not interfere with this, rather than try to do frame rate conversion.

Not all DVDs are 24 FPS material. In fact, most DVDs from TV shows are 30/60 FPS material. On 30/60 DVDs, bringing the display down to 24 Hz (which I can force) results in frame stutter/screen tearing, while leaving the display at 60 Hz results in AMP's inability to create interpolated frames (remember, if a DVD has 24 FPS material, 3:2 pulldown is activated if the display is at 60 Hz, again leaving no room for injected frames).

I've yet to run into a 24 FPS DVD encode actually, and running 24 Hz output results in a lot of stutter with AMP off when used on DVDs. But with AMP on, video's smooth as a schoolgirl's...er, yeah. The big problem with DVDs is that they're interlaced, meaning 30 FPS or 60 FiPS (fields per second). AMP just can't handle it without dropping the refresh rate. It's a limitation of both processing speed and available time to insert the new frame.

I think it's plainly obvious that DVDs are the red headed stepchild with regard to AMP. If I watch DVDs at 60 Hz with AMP on I get this: Smooth -> video speeds up slightly -> HALT -> re-sync w/ frame data -> Smooth -> Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. That sequence takes about 1-2 seconds on average to cycle, meaning the stutter is nearly constant. If I watch a DVD at a forced output of 24 Hz, I get smooth video 99% of the time, with my only issue being minor judder.

That's the beauty of OS X's Displays control pane. I can force 60, 30, or 24 Hz when at the panel's native resolution (1920x1080). BTW, 30 Hz is worthless for DVDs with or without AMP on because DVDs are encoded as interlaced, and a deinterlacer is used for progressive scan displays, resulting in that dreaded 1:1 ratio again.

Trust me, it was annoying watching DVDs until I figured out from hearrean why he stated he never had issues with AMP stuttering. He has a player that can force 24 Hz output for BD *or* DVD. Surprise surprise when I tried that trick on my Mac Pro and found he was right.

Workarounds don't always appear logical now, do they?

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post #166 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 09:56 AM
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It seems you're looking for a workaround to a problem with your particular display. I don't think it's a general problem that receiver manufacturers think they have to solve.
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post #167 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

It seems you're looking for a workaround to a problem with your particular display. I don't think it's a general problem that receiver manufacturers think they have to solve.

That'd be backwards thinking on their part - there are many instances where the AVR prevents a proper 24 Hz mode establishment in the first place just by being placed into the picture (setup) at all. Having the option to force that mode does help a lot of people. It won't be a deal breaker for me fortunately, but SCENE functionality regarding being able to set just the audio delay on/off will be, if it is lacking that feature. I mean, there's little point in spending $2kish on an AVR whose sole upgrade is HDMI if the feature you need isn't there.

I'll just have to wait and see if SCENE can be used to switch ONLY the audio delay (lip sync) setting and nothing else, including the input. If the other 8 SCENE memories can be easily accessed by remote (i.e. I don't have to dig through UI menus for SCENE 5-12), then even the input source being forced into SCENE memory won't be a limitation for me. But ONLY if SCENE 5-12 are accessible easily by remote (I'll need two SCENE memories for each input I use if the input is also forced into SCENE memory).

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post #168 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 05:10 PM
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I'm sure you won't have a problem with passing 24Hz if the source can send it, forced or not. I think the 1700/2700 were the last generation that got in the way of 24Hz being passed from source to display. But moving on...

Speaking of deal breakers, what if the volume is displayed in a big black rectangle on your TV any time you make a change, and it can't be turned off? Like the picture of a 667 posted here. Probably seems trivial to some, but I think it would be a deal breaker for me.
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post #169 of 8843 Old 08-26-2010, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I'm sure you won't have a problem with passing 24Hz if the source can send it, forced or not. I think the 1700/2700 were the last generation that got in the way of 24Hz being passed from source to display. But moving on...

Speaking of deal breakers, what if the volume is displayed in a big black rectangle on your TV any time you make a change, and it can't be turned off? Like the picture of a 667 posted here. Probably seems trivial to some, but I think it would be a deal breaker for me.

Most sources can't force 24 Hz. That's why I was looking for it in the AVR. But since I have the option of using my Mac Pro for DVDs and the PS3 for BDs, right now it's just a convenience factor. I know some AVRs don't let 24 Hz through (forcing 60 Hz instead), but I was looking for one that can actually force 24 Hz. Anywho...

The volume via OSD I could live with, but I'd also find it rather annoying (mine shows volume in numbers only, no bars thankfully). I'd prefer it be off, since I have to point the remote at the AVR anyway, and thus I usually am looking at the AVR to verify the volume #, so the OSD is redundant. But that's me. I don't criticize anybody that wants "parts" of features turned on/off. Why? I'm one of those that despised the controller setup for Metroid Prime on the GameCube. The GC's shoulder triggers had such a large movement range AND a very viscous "click" at the end of that movement range, that my fingers got tired in Metroid Prime very fast. So tired it hurt to play more than a few minutes at a time. But there was no way to remap the controls. Same thing with FFXII on PS2 - inverted camera AND inverted movement controls together. Couldn't remap the controls, so I never got past the first chapter in the game out of hatred for the controls. As such, I don't complain about others wanting similar "nitpicky" things - one person's "I can live with it" is another person's "I hate this with a passion. From Hell's heart, I stab at thee!".



IMO OSD via HDMI defeats the purpose of passthrough mode because the AVR is now altering the signal to add data not previously there, and the processor is always active even if no OSD info is displayed. That's the beauty of the SCENE functions. If it works the way I need it to (with regard to the above post about lip sync and NOT changing input sources with each button), then I can freely live with no OSD via HDMI once I set up the AVR. I suspect that once you set up the AVR to your liking and set up your SCENE functions, you too may be able to live without any OSD via HDMI as well. And that would take care of your volume bar issues right then and there.

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post #170 of 8843 Old 08-27-2010, 05:42 AM
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Just curious - do you know of any such AVRs that have a force 24Hz? One of the problems with a feature like that is that an AVR has to deal with 24Hz and 60Hz material, and switching between the two means a re-sync, which would be quite annoying to an average customer. Better to do it in the display device for this reason.

Volume OSDs are a real pain - but so is not having them if you are trying to hide all your equipment :-) The only good solution IMO is a two-way remote that displays the volume on it, but those solutions are proprietary and don't let you use a universal remote. Next best would be a small numerical volume OSD in a lower corner of the screen.
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post #171 of 8843 Old 08-27-2010, 06:30 AM
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My current (old) AVR only does OSD only via composite or some such, so alas it doesn't get used. But I think it would be nice to have. OTOH I can see the one alluded getting annoying. I think a good compromise would be a slightly transparent overlay, or just the bar itself, with no background. Ah well, you can't please all the people all the time, which I guess is what it comes down to.
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post #172 of 8843 Old 08-27-2010, 08:27 AM
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I am taking a serious look at this line and think that one of the models may be a viable replacement for my Pioneer VSX 82TXS.

I see enough additional features for me to justify the leap from the A1000 to the A2000, but I am having a hard time seeing the "gotta have it" features that separate the A3000 from the A2000. I know it is hard to make a judgment until we get to look at the actual product, but does anyone think I would regret going with the middle tier A2000 rather than the top of the line A3000?
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post #173 of 8843 Old 08-27-2010, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Volume OSDs are a real pain - but so is not having them if you are trying to hide all your equipment :-) The only good solution IMO is a two-way remote that displays the volume on it, but those solutions are proprietary and don't let you use a universal remote.

These 3 receivers can be controlled through a network connection AFAIK, so a mobile phone with wifi should do the trick, either using the web interface or some app. Controlling other devices as well isn't all that easy, unfortunately. My phone can actually do one-way RC because it has IR, but that doesn't work as well as a real remote because it isn't easy to get the IR beam to reach the device.
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post #174 of 8843 Old 08-27-2010, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by spturtle View Post

These 3 receivers can be controlled through a network connection AFAIK, so a mobile phone with wifi should do the trick, either using the web interface or some app.

The problem is that even when changing the volume from a two-way remote over the network, I think it may display that ugly volume overlay on top of the movie you're watching. But I hope I'm wrong about that.
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post #175 of 8843 Old 08-27-2010, 12:05 PM
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Thought for sure we'd have heard from at least a few early adopters by now.... myself, I am very tempted, but have other gadgets I need to spend my money on too.

How long after one of these starts shipping can we expect some easing up on pricing? Is it reasonable to expect to see these drop by maybe $100 or so by Christmas time?
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post #176 of 8843 Old 08-28-2010, 07:59 PM
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Picked one of these up at Fry's today, but an not going home until Tomorrow (Sunday) - I'll let you know what it looks/sounds like as soon as I can.

Laszlo
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post #177 of 8843 Old 08-28-2010, 10:24 PM
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Picked one of these up at Fry's today, but an not going home until Tomorrow (Sunday) - I'll let you know what it looks/sounds like as soon as I can.

Laszlo

Hrm. I haven't seen any good Yamahas (nothing above the 565) at Fry's here in the bay area yet. I'll keep checking. The SCENE functions are identical on all models in terms of how they work, so if the A1000 does what I want it to, I may go for it. That is, if I can keep myself from drooling over the DHC 80.1 prepro from Integra. XLR connections at an affordable price.

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post #178 of 8843 Old 08-30-2010, 07:42 PM
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Here are some pictures. Sorry for the bad quality. So far so good.....


http://gallery.me.com/laszlog/100097

Laszlo
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post #179 of 8843 Old 08-30-2010, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I will write a thorough review if someone sends me one

I was comparing the 2000 and 3000 and realized how much they parallel the 3900 and Z7. For example, they both seem to use the same video processor, but the 3000 has more options just like the Z7 had.

The A3000 has the 4th optical zone like the Z7.

The price tag for these extra features is not cheap. I understand Yamaha wanting to make money. But the A2000 definitely seems to be a better deal.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #180 of 8843 Old 08-31-2010, 12:57 AM
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I purchased a new Pioneer VSX-1120-K at the beginning of August and 3 weeks later still can't make the sound options, sound even close to right! So, I am shipping it back for a refund and I am going to purchase a Yamaha in the near future. I have a RX-V1300 that is due for a change-out, I hope this helps out someone.

You get what you pay for is the old saying but for $750.00 you should get something remotely accurate, at least I think.

Regards,

mike28086
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