The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:39 PM
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B.P. JD or master can one of you explain to me what a block condenser is on the coming A100?
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:56 PM
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my friend, I honestly have no clue!

somebody who is an engineer and familiar with amp design could probably figure it out! anyone?

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Old 09-13-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Excellent.

Now why D&M doesn't make a AVP based on this platform vs the AV7005 is beyond me.

I really feel like technology is such a moving target nowadays that the uber-flagship type receiver may not be in their plans... might be smarter to invest in a really nice amp and then upgrade pre/pro as needed with ever-advancing tech.


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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Regardless, I hope D&M produces a stellar pre/pro at the <$2500 level to challenge the Onkyo/Integra hegemony.

Is this not already here, with the 4311ci in "pre-amp" mode? Other than balanced outputs, what is it missing that the "hegemony" has? It has the absolute bleeding edge tech specs in terms of room correction (the latest MultEQ) and processing (11ch ready with DSX).

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Old 09-13-2010, 03:03 PM
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Just broswing and found this link. It looks to me like buying the A-100 is like buying a fish tank(it seems to be the cheapest! Then you have to but all the things that go with it and WOW check out the prices for the other pieces. Upgraded 2011udci costs 2499.00 turn table 2499.00 and a 500.00 dollar cartrige. Kinda makes you think!
http://www.beststuff.com/blog/2010/0...duct-line.html
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fishtank View Post

This is true, my 789 and a flawed MULTIEQ implementation. I had to take it to a denon service center.

Having said that... I bought this receiver used from a person for cash. It was about a year and a half old from the Manufacturing date. I had no proof of purchase.

I asked Denon to fix it for free, they said yes.

I also asked Denon to let me take it down the street to someone who isn't an authorized repair center, they said yes.

They even sent this place the adapter needed to do the update.

This was Denon Canada, mileage may vary in other countries I suppose but they definitely earned my next purchase with service like that. Until they really do something wrong to me I might not ever try another AVR brand!

The 4311 and the A100 won't need to be sent back to service for a firmware update, its end user friendly which the 789 is not. But there still has to be a working update, if needed. The issue with the 789 /1909 is still unclear as denon never said there is a defect with the older firmware, no recall or notice to owners on the denon website, there was just a newer released version for the last of the product run, but no announcement.
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

B.P. JD or master can one of you explain to me what a block condenser is on the coming A100?

Condenser is another term for capacitor. Denon uses block capacitors in it's AVRs, however, the AVR 100 marketing info indicates a "unique" block capacitor is being used, although how much of a difference it will make, no clue.

From a wikipedia quote:
Capacitors are widely used in electronic circuits for blocking direct current while allowing alternating current to pass, in filter networks, for smoothing the output of power supplies, in the resonant circuits that tune radios to particular frequencies and for many other purposes.

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Old 09-13-2010, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Condenser is another term for capacitor. Denon uses block capacitors in it's AVRs, however, the AVR 100 marketing info indicates a "unique" block capacitor is being used, although how much of a difference it will make, no clue.

From a wikipedia quote:
Capacitors are widely used in electronic circuits for blocking direct current while allowing alternating current to pass, in filter networks, for smoothing the output of power supplies, in the resonant circuits that tune radios to particular frequencies and for many other purposes.

1. Special Block Capacitors
2. Higher grade speaker terminals
3. Cast Iron footing

anything else that might improve performance.. I will be ordering either a A100 or 4311ci this week.

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Old 09-14-2010, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post

Well Crutchfield has it listed for MSRP.. so if they list the A100 I'm sure it's going to be $MSRP as well. I just got a TV from them.. so I'm still in my 10% off window which makes the 4311 = $1800 and the A100= $2250. That is very tempting.

As of yesterday, the AVR-A100 is posted on Crutchfield as well (along with all of the other 100th anniversary components). There are a couple of new pictures beyond what Denon has provided.

Brad
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post

1. Special Block Capacitors
2. Higher grade speaker terminals
3. Cast Iron footing

anything else that might improve performance.. I will be ordering either a A100 or 4311ci this week.

spdntrxi,

Notice what word I highlighted. I would hope there would be some performance improvement even if only incremental, but it may only be realized on the test bench. I'm pretty sure that there will be those who are fortunate enough to audition both AVRs who will hear a difference and there will be those who will not.

I guess this will fall into the category of exotic cables, power cords, Denon Link and PQLS.


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Old 09-14-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I just can't pay $1999 on pre-order for a 4311 knowing full-well it'll be 15-$1600 within 3 weeks.
bless you guys though, have fun!
James

It does not seem that the authorized Denon dealers drop their prices after the release. The 4310 still lists at $2K and who would buy that instead of a 4311?

Warning: The absolute lowest price from an infamous and blasted company on the AVS Forum is American Theater that has the 4311 at $1588+shipping. It was tempting until reading what others had to write about the company. If one clicks around enough on AVS there is a Google ad for the company.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=894237
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:38 AM
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I have a question I could not find an answer to after searching this thread as well as the 4311 manual from Denon's website.

I currently have an older Yamaha AVR. I use 5.1 multichannel analog for audio. But I am using the pre-outs to a separate two channel amp for the front R and L. If I use analog on the 4311 and the pre-outs for the same front R and L will those two channels have the full Audyssey package applied to them? Or is "pre-out" in this case meaning no processing applied?

Also is the Audyssey applied to the analog multichannels? I found a table in the manual that seems to say it does but am still double checking this since my Yamaha bypasses all processing on analog multichannel.
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

It does not seem that the authorized Denon dealers drop their prices after the release. The 4310 still lists at $2K and who would buy that instead of a 4311?

Warning: The absolute lowest price from an infamous and blasted company on the AVS Forum is American Theater that has the 4311 at $1588+shipping. It was tempting until reading what others had to write about the company. If one clicks around enough on AVS there is a Google ad for the company.

We've talked about this a number of times ...... some authorized Denon vendors do indeed sell at below MSRP (Electronics Expo, 6Ave, J&R, etc.) right at release although will often leave their web page price at MSRP. You need to call them for their best price. The 3311 was selling at 20-25% below MSRP immediately upon release a few months ago.

American Theater is NOT an authorized vendor and therefore Denon's warranty will not be honored.

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Old 09-14-2010, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

I currently have an older Yamaha AVR. I use 5.1 multichannel analog for audio. But I am using the pre-outs to a separate two channel amp for the front R and L. If I use analog on the 4311 and the pre-outs for the same front R and L will those two channels have the full Audyssey package applied to them? Or is "pre-out" in this case meaning no processing applied?

Also is the Audyssey applied to the analog multichannels? I found a table in the manual that seems to say it does but am still double checking this since my Yamaha bypasses all processing on analog multichannel.

If you look at the table on p. 128 you'll note that Audyssey cannot be applied to the EXT IN inputs (AFAIK the only model that can do this is the top of the line AVP-A1HD). It can however, be applied when the pre-outs are used with a non EXT IN input.

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Old 09-14-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

We've talked about this a number of times ...... some authorized Denon vendors do indeed sell at below MSRP (Electronics Ave, 6Ave, J&R, etc.) right at release although will often leave their web page price at MSRP. You need to call them for their best price. The 3311 was selling at 20-25% below MSRP immediately upon release a few months ago.

Good to know. Thanks.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If you look at the table on p. 128 you'll note that Audyssey cannot be applied to the EXT IN inputs (AFAIK the only model that can do this is the top of the line AVP-A1HD). It can however, be applied when the pre-outs are used with a non EXT IN input.

Hmmm. You're right. I misinterpreted this as this was a case of a difference in terminology between my AVR and the 4311. My AVR uses "Multichannel" in its menu as a term describing only the 5.1 analog inputs. Therefore I thought that Multichannel on that table on page 128 meant the analog ins. But the 4311 uses EXT IN for describing the analog audio inputs. Thanks for the correction!

But that means the 4311 will not allow me to set up my system using 5.1 analog and Audyssey as I was hoping. Sigh. And no I wasn't looking to spend the extra money on the AVP-A1HD to get it. Too rich for my blood.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

But that means the 4311 will not allow me to set up my system using 5.1 analog and Audyssey as I was hoping. Sigh. And no I wasn't looking to spend the extra money on the AVP-A1HD to get it. Too rich for my blood.

What source do you have that outputs 5.1 analog?
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

But that means the 4311 will not allow me to set up my system using 5.1 analog and Audyssey as I was hoping. Sigh.

no offense, but why is anyone springing for a brand-new, bleeding edge digital receiver with gaggles of digital inputs, and then worrying about multich analog?

the whole point of multich analog inputs is either (1) to access a format that your receiver cannot decode internally, like SACD or HD audio on an older receiver, or (2) to intentionally bypass the digital processing and have a straight "passthrough" to the amp section with the shortest possible signal path.

now that you can do any hi-rez multich audio with HDMI or DenonLink (making number 1 irrelevant), I don't see why it's needed unless you specifically WANT to avoid processing (number 2).

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Old 09-14-2010, 09:59 AM
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Unless you have a component that doesn't have HDMI. I have a DVD player I keep in my system just for SACD and DVD-A playback. It doesn't have HDMI, but it has multichannel annalog outs. Since the formats are all but dead, it's hard to justify buying something new to replace it, but I still want to play the library I have.

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Old 09-14-2010, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Is this not already here, with the 4311ci in "pre-amp" mode? Other than balanced outputs, what is it missing that the "hegemony" has? It has the absolute bleeding edge tech specs in terms of room correction (the latest MultEQ) and processing (11ch ready with DSX).

No bones about it, Onkyo/Integra (9.8, 9.9, 80.1, 80.2, SC5507P, SC5508P) has established hegemony (i.e. dominance) in the <$2500 pre/pro. Denon has basically ceded that market to Onkyo/Integra. And that is a shame, because Denon could beat Onkyo/Integra at that game. (Of course, all the whining AVP owners would bitch & moan if Denon produced a fuller featured $2500 pre/pro.)

As for what that 4311CI/A100 is missing, let me count the ways. No THX Ultra2 Plus processing. No Advanced AL24 (or AL32) Processing Multichannel. No higher end 24 bit (or 32 bit) DACs. No separate L/R sub outs. No balanced XLR outs.

BTW, Crutchfield is indicating that the A100 utilizes "16 separate PCM1791A 192kHz/24-bit digital-to-analog converters." If the citation is correct (and it is suspect), then Onkyo, Pioneer, and Yamaha are using higher end, more expensive Burr Brown PCM1795 32 bit or PCM1796 24 bit DACs, while Denon is once again clinging to the same old PCM1791A part. Yeah, DAC specs at this level are probably inconsequential. But this still smacks of penny pinching when the competitors are using newer, higher spec'd DACs.

http://www.crutchfield.com/s_033AVRA...00.html?tp=179

AJ
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Unless you have a component that doesn't have HDMI. I have a DVD player I keep in my system just for SACD and DVD-A playback. It doesn't have HDMI, but it has multichannel annalog outs. Since the formats are all but dead, it's hard to justify buying something new to replace it, but I still want to play the library I have.

Well, if you don't want to take advantage of time alignment, bass management, Audessey or any other processing in your receiver that's your choice.

Otherwise buy a used Oppo DVD 970HD / 980H / 981HD / 983H player and toss your old DVD player in the trash. Or make sure your next Blu-Ray player also plays back DVD-A & SACD.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:28 AM
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agreed, you can find a player that will do SACD / DVD-A over HDMI for $100 (or less) easy nowadays....

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Old 09-14-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

What source do you have that outputs 5.1 analog?

Heh. I have my whole system set up that way. I have a Denon 5900 universal player I use for music, a Panny BD55 Blu ray player, and a Toshiba HD-A35 HD DVD player all hooked up 5.1 analog thru a Zektor HDS 4.1 switcher. My Yamaha RX-V2400 receiver, which I've had for over 7 years now I think, doesn't have HDMI. (I bought it the year before HDMI came out on many AVR's.)

I've always firmly held the opinion that your room acoustics affects what your ears finally hear from your speakers (assuming good quality speakers properly driven) more than any component in your system (again assuming good quality components). My system is also in my living room and not in a dedicated home theater room so this is especially true for me.

As a result and since I started out 5.1 analog I added two Behringer DEQ 2496 EQ's plus a Velodyne SMS-1 sub EQ. One 2496 EQ's the R and L fronts and the second 2496 EQ's the center front and my sub. The SMS-1 further EQ's my sub. The Behringers have a built in graphic spectrum analyzer and can produce their own pink noise signal for tweaking your system and along with the SMS-1 I've got my system pretty much flat from about 17Hz to around 16-18kHz +/- maybe 1.5 db. Or at least using a 1/3 octave analyzer. Not counting my two smaller side surrounds of course.

Anyway as well as upgrading to a more updated AVR that has HDMI as well as Audyssey and a few other features I was hoping to be able to compare my system in three ways. First leaving the original sound path of analog 5.1 EQs as I'm doing. Second ADD IN Audyssey and see what I hear. Third just use HDMI audio and bypass my Behringer EQs using only the Audyssey. Doesn't look like the 4311 will allow me to add in the Audyssey. I will only be able to do an either/or comparison.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

B.P. JD or master can one of you explain to me what a block condenser is on the coming A100?

If my basic recollection of a typical block condenser is correct, the primary benefit resides in the construction of insulative layers within the block that, in essence, act as "walls" that better isolate current/signal transfer.

I think most are formed from ceramics or a ceramic-like substitute specfically chosen for their/its insulative properties.

I think most claims as to their discernible, positive, effect(s) on sound quality are likely dubious, but, in theory (and perhaps in measurement), there's probably a sliver of a reduction in noise or increase in linearity that gets someone all hot and bothered...or just looks great on a spec/feature cut sheet.

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Old 09-14-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindamood View Post

As of yesterday, the AVR-A100 is posted on Crutchfield as well (along with all of the other 100th anniversary components). There are a couple of new pictures beyond what Denon has provided.

I suppose everyone noticed that the back pictures posted on the Crutchfield site show made in China for the 4311 and made in Japan for the A100.

The look dummied up though so I'm not sure if this is really the case.

Do we know for sure either way?
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Condenser is another term for capacitor. Denon uses block capacitors in it's AVRs, however, the AVR 100 marketing info indicates a "unique" block capacitor is being used, although how much of a difference it will make, no clue.

From a wikipedia quote:
Capacitors are widely used in electronic circuits for blocking direct current while allowing alternating current to pass, in filter networks, for smoothing the output of power supplies, in the resonant circuits that tune radios to particular frequencies and for many other purposes.

Well technically, doesn't a true condenser lack the ability to store energy electrostatically, so then, it isn't technically a capacitor?

Actually, come to think of it, that may a property solely related to a synchronus condenser.

As everyone can see, I'm quickly navigating into tall waters...I'll let someone else command this ship now.

EDIT: after thinking about it a bit, I think JD's statement is correct. I would imagine the condenser they've "fabricated" for the A100 is simply a "one-off" that may (or may not) have any real effect on sound quality.

James

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Old 09-14-2010, 11:02 AM
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Don't really get all the hegemony bit about Onkyo. I really could care bupkiss what Burr Browns are used. At this point of AL24 32/64/gazillion +++ techno garble I just can't here the difference. Someone quotes here 0.01 vs. 0.0001 THD is still inaudible. I think the Burr Brown comments are just more inaudible on already inaudible or clear on clear or whatever subjective floats your boat.

The Onkyo's can't do Heights + Wides. End of story. I love this feature. I could care just as little for THX certification and the THX processing. Denon's have the Audyssey features which I like. Don't need or want more. Already it's ginzu IIish enough for me. The 4311 does process full .2 so that's just wrong.

Nothing against Onkyo but they are not clearly superior.... Just different.

On a lighter note, I have ordered the 4311 and have received full credit for my 4810. The NIC card of the 4810 did my ownership in. Really, with using external power, the 4311 should be great. ETA is about a week the retailer thinks.
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

B.P. JD or master can one of you explain to me what a block condenser is on the coming A100?

If my basic recollection of a typical block condenser is correct, the primary benefit resides in the construction of insulative layers within the block that, in essence, act as "walls" that better isolate current/signal transfer.

I think most are formed from ceramics or a ceramic-like substitute specfically chosen for their/its insulative properties.

I think most claims as to their discernible, positive, effect(s) on sound quality are likely dubious, but, in theory (and perhaps in measurement), there's probably a sliver of a reduction in noise or increase in linearity that gets someone all hot and bothered...or just looks great on a spec/feature cut sheet.

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Old 09-14-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Well, if you don't want to take advantage of time alignment, bass management, Audessey or any other processing in your receiver that's your choice.

Who said anything about not wanting any of those things? My house is full of things I'd love to be able to throw in the trash and replace. I'm just waiting on someone to offer to fund all the upgrades. I was simply offering an example of why someone may still have a use for analog multi-channel inputs.

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Old 09-14-2010, 11:14 AM
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

...
Is this not already here, with the 4311ci in "pre-amp" mode? Other than balanced outputs, what is it missing that the "hegemony" has? It has the absolute bleeding edge tech specs in terms of room correction (the latest MultEQ) and processing (11ch ready with DSX).

... and you forgot to mention that the 4311 is also Audyssey "Installer ready", so it's even more unique on the market today!

Hugo
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:14 AM
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no offense, but why is anyone springing for a brand-new, bleeding edge digital receiver with gaggles of digital inputs, and then worrying about multich analog?

the whole point of multich analog inputs is either (1) to access a format that your receiver cannot decode internally, like SACD or HD audio on an older receiver, or (2) to intentionally bypass the digital processing and have a straight "passthrough" to the amp section with the shortest possible signal path.

now that you can do any hi-rez multich audio with HDMI or DenonLink (making number 1 irrelevant), I don't see why it's needed unless you specifically WANT to avoid processing (number 2).

I would think the most significant point would be for an AVR to be able to accomodate a component that JUST has multi-channel analog outs, as all mulit-channel pre-HDMI source components did. Limited optical inputs on newer AVRs may also necessitate the use of them on components equipped with both.

It's crucial to realize there's a decent number who paid buku dollars for a high-end device they wish to continue to use....nevermind spending more money on a replacement that does the same thing (albeit a little "less well" ).

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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