The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 128 - AVS Forum
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post #3811 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 11:49 AM
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Just wanted to chime in on the audio drop-out issue and confirm my situation regarding 2 channel signal input dropout. All other signal inputs are okay, just the 2 channel sources. I noticed this more while viewing On-Demand via Comcast as most of these shows are transmitted in 2 channel audio. This occurs with full HDMI 1.4a and 1.3 versions.
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post #3812 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 11:57 AM
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Question about wides.... people who run them seem to like them.

I contemplating eventually adding them, but then my concern is A-DSX for height speakers. I have heights and so far I would say I prefer DPLIIz for heights over A-DSX. A-DSX feels more like "presence" to me, moving too much sound there for my liking, basically replicating output of front speakers in the heights as opposing moving height effects there (like rain). It is not bad for some types of music, but not too good for movies. DPLIIz seems to be doing the right job (at default settings), being much more conservative at what is sent to heights. Perhaps I need to play with adjusting A-DSX heights, but my initial findings favor DPLIIz.

The point is one cannot choose A-DSX for wides & DPLIIz for heights. These are mutually exclusive.

Comments?
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post #3813 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdogyyz View Post

Also, I stream Netflix through and Xbox 360 and I don't believe DD 5.1 is available yet on this.

If that's the case, I have an issue with my Xbox on the audio output because I definitely see the 5.1 source on my 4311 and it was on my old Yamaha. It would make sense if I had screwed up that output because when I would stream music from my media server, it would be sent to the receiver as 5.1 (even though I knew the file was stereo). So, I stopped using my Xbox for streaming music and used my PS3 instead.

Man, if this is the case, I have had an issue for a long time. And by issue, I mean issue with me not setting it properly

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post #3814 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:04 PM
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I rarely listen to 2.0 in my home theater but if that is the native soundtrack I will usually stick to that rather than use an artificial surround mode. But I do use it for playing Rock Band because I find the lag I get with Dolby Digital unbearable, particularly where vocals are concerned. So hopefully this weekend I can get some extended testing in since I am otherwise problem free.
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post #3815 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:12 PM
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So, I have a few HDCD discs. How do I know that they are decoded by the 4311? I put them in and do not see any additional lights. This is my first device to decode them back and I was curious.

Also, I assume that I do not need any sort of special playback on my device, correct?

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post #3816 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyTango View Post

What do either of those matter? Really?

If you want to circle into what the integra has over the Denon, start with the power supply.

so you're agreeing with me that the integra (other than not being 11.2) is possibly better? at least on paper?
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post #3817 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

so you're agreeing with me that the integra (other than not being 11.2) is possibly better? at least on paper?

Possibly better? Yes. That is something only the end user can decide. What is on paper will not tell you what sounds better to you.

Either one has pluses and minuses.
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post #3818 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:26 PM
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[quote=unclemat;19514860]The point is one cannot choose A-DSX for wides & DPLIIz for heights. These are mutually exclusive.QUOTE]

I didn't realize this....

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #3819 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post

Question about wides.... people who run them seem to like them.

I contemplating eventually adding them, but then my concern is A-DSX for height speakers. I have heights and so far I would say I prefer DPLIIz for heights over A-DSX. A-DSX feels more like "presence" to me, moving too much sound there for my liking, basically replicating output of front speakers in the heights as opposing moving height effects there (like rain). It is not bad for some types of music, but not too good for movies. DPLIIz seems to be doing the right job (at default settings), being much more conservative at what is sent to heights. Perhaps I need to play with adjusting A-DSX heights, but my initial findings favor DPLIIz.

The point is one cannot choose A-DSX for wides & DPLIIz for heights. These are mutually exclusive.

Comments?

You can't mix PLIIz with DSX Wide. My answer, although not definitive is somewhat corroborated by people who have played with the 4810. For Movies/Video content - there is a general sense that DSX H+W is the most immersive and well, awesome, DSX Wide is next, then PLIIz, and Finally DSX Height.

There are quite a number of comments that this hierarchy is somewhat different for live Concert Videos and Other Recorded Multi Channel Music. A great number of bloggers have thrown the weight behind PLIIz being the best option in these cases. Usually the comments align with the PLIIz sound for music being more balanced and less obvious/obnoxious than the DSX created sound.

Rarely will you find someone who disagrees with this sort of list of adding speakers. You will read a ton about people reducing the presence for DSX and tweaking all over the place. The list is pretty much my opinion as well. You need to recognize I am more a Movie/Video guy.

Moral here.... for movies at least, try to set up some temporary wides. Then try the H+W. I think you'll find the H in this equation really, really subtle. I have some very nice and spendy Heights and often I don't really even notice they are in the equation but just adding occasional Height effects and expanding the immersive feel of movie scenes. You can tell they are in ceiling when one would expect them to be noticed, such as the tree toppling sequence in "Avatar".
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post #3820 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWolf56 View Post

If that's the case, I have an issue with my Xbox on the audio output because I definitely see the 5.1 source on my 4311 and it was on my old Yamaha. It would make sense if I had screwed up that output because when I would stream music from my media server, it would be sent to the receiver as 5.1 (even though I knew the file was stereo). So, I stopped using my Xbox for streaming music and used my PS3 instead.

Man, if this is the case, I have had an issue for a long time. And by issue, I mean issue with me not setting it properly

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/N...urround-110938

http://www.audioholics.com/news/indu...-dolby-digital

This is from October 2010 and says just the PS3. I cannot find anything that says they have updated the 360 to do it.
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post #3821 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:42 PM
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Yeah, that's my plan to try wides temporarily in lieu of rear surrounds.

If I decide on 11.x setup I'll have to pick up a 2-ch amp (I am just using internal amps of 4311ci so far). Any recommendations on setero amps?

I guess the question is whether I'd want to use it to drive heights or fronts. I guess to drive fronts it would be tempting to get some high quality stereo power amp, while for heights I'd pick up something weaker/cheaper.

Any recommendation on both of the alternatives?
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post #3822 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Perhaps a matter of opinion, but if bipoles don't do this for fronts why would they do it for wides?

I was thing more in the line of dipole more so than bi-pole. Oh and also I had this image of hanging the speakers directly on the wall.

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post #3823 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdogyyz View Post


http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/N...urround-110938

http://www.audioholics.com/news/indu...-dolby-digital

This is from October 2010 and says just the PS3. I cannot find anything that says they have updated the 360 to do it.

Yep, Unclemat. You must have the XBox doing the processing. Neflix does not do 5.1 via the XBox 360 at this time. I am really very sure of this. However, if your Netflix sounds better on the XBox than say, the PC.... This does not surprise me either as I have noticed differences between which piece of hardware receives Netflix Streams.... So you are still probably right, even though you're wrong! :-)
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post #3824 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:01 PM
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For anyone questioning what blue rain looks like, I believe it's in this image I've attached. Taken with my iPhone. I've returned my model approximately 3 times to Crutchfield already. And with each new model, I get the same exact defects. A good Blu-ray disc to preview for the blue rain to constantly show up is the Nine Inch Nails Live - Beside You in Time. I've also seen the blue rain show up on my Matrix Blu-ray discs. For the amount of money I paid, this should NOT be happening. I'm very upset/frustrated etc. etc. etc. Hope someone at Denon reads this.
LL
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post #3825 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyTango View Post

Possibly better? Yes. That is something only the end user can decide. What is on paper will not tell you what sounds better to you.

Either one has pluses and minuses.

I hate to say it, but at this stage the majority of the pluses seem to be on the integra side. I WANT to like the 4311, believe me, it's just making it so difficult.
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post #3826 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glnyc View Post

For anyone questioning what blue rain looks like, I believe it's in this image I've attached.

Yup, that's definitely blue rain.

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post #3827 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glnyc View Post

I've also seen the blue rain show up on my Matrix Blu-ray discs.

Finally someone has mentioned a blu-ray that I own. Can you give an example of where you experience the blue rain?

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #3828 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post

Yeah, that's my plan to try wides temporarily in lieu of rear surrounds.

If I decide on 11.x setup I'll have to pick up a 2-ch amp (I am just using internal amps of 4311ci so far). Any recommendations on setero amps?

I guess the question is whether I'd want to use it to drive heights or fronts. I guess to drive fronts it would be tempting to get some high quality stereo power amp, while for heights I'd pick up something weaker/cheaper.

Any recommendation on both of the alternatives?

I think an Emotiva UPA-2 would work great. If you want to add some more true go juice, the XPA-3 for the main fronts or perhaps the XPA-5 for the Main Fronts and surrounds or Main Fronts + Wides. i also like looking at the auctions and sales sites for used amps. There is some neat stuff out there, if not for sound, childhood memories.

I'm telling ya!! Once you try Wides for a great bombastic explodo movies, you'll be hooked. Yep... crazy, wide fan boy here, but note everyone who tries it ends up agreeing - well most everyone.
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post #3829 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:29 PM
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I think I'm gonna have to install some wides. hell, I thought heights was an awesome improvement, and consensus seems to be wides are even more impressive. my wife is going to kill me soon.
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post #3830 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Finally someone has mentioned a blu-ray that I own. Can you give an example of where you experience the blue rain?

At the moment, I don't have the disc in front of me, I saw it a few times on the first disc. Watch the entire portion of the first movie up to the garbage truck that tries to smash trinity into the phone booth. There are a few brief instances of it. Look in the dark areas of the image. If your receiver has the "bug" you'll see some blue rain action.

But on that NIN disc I mentioned above, its a blue rain torrential downpour. EXTREMELY distracting. If i'm using my PS3 for gaming, I have never seen blue rain while playing a video game.
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post #3831 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 02:30 PM
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With respect to the audio drop out issue, I was following a thread at the Emotiva forum regarding the UMC-1 and the audio drop outs that owners were complaining of with it. It sounds very very similar, where changing source and back brings back the sound. Not 100% sure though if the issue was slow to lock on, or audio loss as I know it suffers from both.

I've gone looking for the post but cannot find it at the moment, but at the time (IIRC) Lonnie mentioned that this is an issue with the Cirrus chip and that all new AVR's will be using the same (or similar) part. At the time I was amazed to think that AVR manufacturers would let something like this out to the public and that he was deflecting the issue a bit.

Not sure if that's the same chip the Denon uses, but is starting to sound very similar, and if that is the case, I dont see a resolution anytime soon............

just my 2cents

EDIT:
Ok, found the posts I was referring to, kinda starts HERE and continues a page or so later HERE

not trying to start anything here, just hoefully providing some info that may be relevant.
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post #3832 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I think an Emotiva UPA-2 would work great. If you want to add some more true go juice, the XPA-3 for the main fronts or perhaps the XPA-5 for the Main Fronts and surrounds or Main Fronts + Wides. i also like looking at the auctions and sales sites for used amps. There is some neat stuff out there, if not for sound, childhood memories.

I'm telling ya!! Once you try Wides for a great bombastic explodo movies, you'll be hooked. Yep... crazy, wide fan boy here, but note everyone who tries it ends up agreeing - well most everyone.

I'm going to try my hand @ external amps again (after the krell showcase didnt work out).. This time I am going Sunfire 400X7.. So I plan to use 400 for the front 5 (with wides) and 400 for the side surrounds and eventually just run rear surrounds with internal amps or the A100. Good idea ? Dont know..or would it better to run side with internal amps and rears with Sunfire ?

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post #3833 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post

I'm going to try my hand @ external amps again (after the krell showcase didnt work out).. This time I am going Sunfire 400X7.. So I plan to use 400 for the front 5 (with wides) and 400 for the side surrounds and eventually just run rear surrounds with internal amps or the A100. Good idea ? Dont know..or would it better to run side with internal amps and rears with Sunfire ?

I'm kind of over the top on Amp power, not out of necessity but sort of because it's fun. The great thing about Audyssey EQ is that you can amp pretty much any way you want. Denon's have fairly low gain internal amps, as do most of the main line AVR's. Some external amps are non adjustable and very high gain; such as my XPA-1s. I don't know really from an engineering stand point why this is. I think some of the external amp companies like high gain because the second you plug them in with your old equiment, you immediately get a 5 db gain, that your ears can hear and you go, "Wow, that sounds great". Anyway, Audyssey corrects for volume and that means, go try different amps to your hearts content. The few nuances of amp architecture aren't IMHO that noticable, less so EQ'd.

I would recommend that if you have a really good external amp, power the fronts and center first.....

I am a layman though, so maybe someone with more technical prowess would advise differently.
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post #3834 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I'm kind of over the top on Amp power, not out of necessity but sort of because it's fun. The great thing about Audyssey EQ is that you can amp pretty much any way you want. Denon's have fairly low gain internal amps, as do most of the main line AVR's. Some external amps are non adjustable and very high gain; such as my XPA-1s. I don't know really from an engineering stand point why this is. I think some of the external amp companies like high gain because the second you plug them in with your old equiment, you immediately get a 5 db gain, that your ears can hear and you go, "Wow, that sounds great". Anyway, Audyssey corrects for volume and that means, go try different amps to your hearts content. The few nuances of amp architecture aren't IMHO that noticable, less so EQ'd.

I would recommend that if you have a really good external amp, power the fronts and center first.....

I am a layman though, so maybe someone with more technical prowess would advise differently.

well I'l going to throw 400 per at the front 3 and if I run wides I will throw 400 at them too. I briefly had a used Krell Showcase @ 125x7 and my speakers where clipping. I dont know if it was the amp that sucked/broken or the input/output sensitivity issues. Denon being 1.2v(max) and the Krell being 1.5V . The new amp is 1.9v unbalanced so it worse in the respect but 125 vs 400 should more then make up the difference. (over the top as you say)
I also have RCA to XLR cables..and I know it might be totally legit way to do it..but by using the XLR the input sensitivity drops to 1v on the ext amp.. more in line with what the AVR can output though the preouts. Getting excited about the it actually.. always enjoyed Carver equip...college roomate had a pretty awesome setup back then.

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post #3835 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 10:50 PM
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It appears as though firmware for the 4311 has been released. Can anyone find the release notes as I'm not having any luck. I'm taking a risk and installing anyways..I didn't have any problems with the unit before update so hopefully this works out ok.

Edit: It installed after about 24 minutes or so, without errors. No problems so far.
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post #3836 of 23295 Old 11-19-2010, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeoutleh View Post

It appears as though firmware for the 4311 has been released. Can anyone find the release notes as I'm not having any luck. I'm taking a risk and installing anyways..I didn't have any problems with the unit before update so hopefully this works out ok.

It should be fine. Denon doesn't really do many release notes. It's a Denon, keep ya in the dark tradition. Good luck...
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post #3837 of 23295 Old 11-20-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glnyc View Post

For anyone questioning what blue rain looks like, I believe it's in this image I've attached. Taken with my iPhone. I've returned my model approximately 3 times to Crutchfield already. And with each new model, I get the same exact defects. A good Blu-ray disc to preview for the blue rain to constantly show up is the Nine Inch Nails Live - Beside You in Time. I've also seen the blue rain show up on my Matrix Blu-ray discs. For the amount of money I paid, this should NOT be happening. I'm very upset/frustrated etc. etc. etc. Hope someone at Denon reads this.


Has anyone tried adjusting gamma settings in the display device or any other device in the signal chain that does video processing?

I ask, because years ago (circa 1996) I remember seeing something similar to what is displayed in the thumbnail provided by glnyc (attached to his post above). It occurred with an LCD projector I used to own. By making gamma adjustments in the projector's various video modes, I was able to eliminate the blue streaks (what I referred to back then as "blue sparks").

I don't even know if my old "blue sparks" issue is in any way related to the current "blue rain" phenomenon described in this thread. Anyway, I just thought I would mention the gamma tweaking approach that had helped me in the past.

I'm hopeful that the blue rain issue can be resolved soon, as I still have an interest in the newest Denon processors/receivers.


Tom

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post #3838 of 23295 Old 11-20-2010, 11:03 AM
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Those affected by this blue rain issue, take pictures of it happening, make videos of it happening, post it on youtube. The noisier we are, the quicker they will take notice.

I would contact Denon directly, phone and email. Leave messages on all of the social networking sites they specify on their website asking what's being done about this issue that's apparently pretty widespread. (Facebook, Twitter, Youtube etc.) Let them know. Contact the company you purchased it from. Let them know as well. And at the end of the day, if you just don't want to deal with that, return it asap and get a refund. I personally love the receiver with the exception of this blue rain issue and the sound dropouts.

This needs to be taken care of asap.
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post #3839 of 23295 Old 11-20-2010, 11:30 AM
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Last night, I attended an event in recognition of the Denon 100th anniversary at one of the 40 dealers selected to carry anniversary series. The presenter was Jeff Talmadge (aka DenonJeff here at AVS), Denon's director of product development in the US. During the group presentation and one on one after the presentation, I asked Jeff several questions, the answers to which should interest many other AVS members. Since this is currently the most active Denon thread, I thought it best to post the info here. If there is sufficient interest in discussion, though, we can move it to its own thread.

*A100: The AVR is seemingly Jeff's favorite of the anniversary series. Interestingly, he feels that it provides the greatest sound quality improvement over the stock model (4311CI) on which it is based. The primary difference between the anniversary series & stock models -- besides the obvious piano gloss finish & cast iron feet -- is that the components & boards contained w/in the series models were individually tested for compliance. Those that did not meet Denon's more tightly spec'd tolerances were diverted elsewhere, perhaps to the stock component lines. Last but not least, Jeff said that the AVR is limited to 400 units in the US and implied that nearly all have already been sold.

*AirPlay: Jeff will be testing AirPlay on his home system this weekend. The official firmware update will be available December 1 for $49.

*preamp mode: Expect the preamp mode in the 4311CI/A100 to trickle down to at least the 3312CI next year. And expect preamp mode to become more flexible w/ many possible full/partial combinations (e.g. preamp mode for just L, C, R; amp mode for LS, RS, LH, RH, etc.). Preamp mode will serve as a more inclusive alternative to an actual pre/pro -- see below.

*pre/pro: Though Denon is still looking for ways to reenter the pre/pro market, another pre/pro in the near term is unlikely. The rumored CIX pre/pro became a source of internal disagreement at Denon. Some wanted it based upon the 33xxCI, others the 43xxCI. Some wanted to shave features to bring it in at $1799, others wanted a higher end product. So, any new pre/pro is shelved for now. Additionally, Jeff insinuated that Integra w/ its 9.8/9.9/80.1/80.2 series of $2000 pre/pros -- while very popular here w/in AVS -- has not been as successful as appearances might indicate. He suggested that Integra is moving roughly 200 per month.

*Blu-ray transport: A few model years ago, Denon intro'd the 2500BTCI, a Blu-ray "transport" -- no DACs or analog audio out, no component video out, just HDMI out. Jeff agreed w/ me that the idea was ahead of its time and said that Denon will produce a universal (i.e. SACD & DVD-A) Blu-ray transport again in the near future.

*53xxCI & 48xxCI AVRs: Do not expect new model 53xxCI & 48xxCI AVRs in the future. Just as Pioneer Elite & Yamaha have not replaced their flagships, Denon has decided that the market & technology change too quickly for a high dollar flagship AVR that is released only every few years to remain viable. So, the 43xxCI -- and there will be a 4312CI next year -- is apt to be the top of the line going forward.

*A1HDCI(A) & 5308CI(A): Though he did not mention any specifics, Jeff made it sound as if the A1HDCI(A) flagship pre/pro & 5308CI(A) flagship AVR will be offered a hardware upgrade, potentially because there will be no flagship follow up models.

*Marantz: Jeff agreed that many Denon & Marantz products are now built on a common platform. However, he stated that the common platform primarily applies to the DSP & GUI. Denon & Marantz engineers, respectively, still utilize their own proprietary technologies (e.g. AL24 Processing, HDAM, etc.) to differentiate the two D&M Holdings companies.

That is the rundown from the event last night. Let me know if you have questions...

AJ
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post #3840 of 23295 Old 11-20-2010, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

I thought it best to post the info here.

Thanks.
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