The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Looks like World Wide Stereo (new authorized vendor) has set the new low mark with a current sale using coupon code "EMPLOYEE" through 9/21 providing a 25% savings.

This is fantastic info jdsmoothie; thank you for posting. However, I noticed via the FAQs that they charge the credit card as soon as the order is placed. Since it could be weeks before the 4311 is released, I personally won't be giving them that kind of advance.

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post #542 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Do the math. A 29% increase in the number of amplified channels and a 38% increase in total wattage result from only a 10% increase in weight. That overall weight gain is specious, as it represents a weight loss when compared per amplified channel.

AJ

I've been following this thread mainly looking for info on the release date on this AVR, but had to respond to this statement, mainly because you started the post with "Do the math."

You're actually implying that an XX% increase in power should be met by the same XX % increase in weight? In that case, I recommend buying the AVR-A100, since it has the cast iron feet, will weigh more, and undoubtedly be better. (You know, since there will be less of a 'weight loss when compared per amplified channel).

Honestly, it sounds like you'd be happy if Denon just strapped a steel plate to the bottom. Sadly, they would probably sell a ton on the back of that.

But going back to power to weight... What do you think a straight up pre/pro should weigh? 0lbs? A 100% power loss should be worth about a 100% weight loss right.

Weight/power ratio champ is probably a 1st gen iPod. They're real heavy for the amount of power they produce.
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post #543 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post

This is fantastic info jdsmoothie; thank you for posting. However, I noticed via the FAQs that they charge the credit card as soon as the order is placed. Since it could be weeks before the 4311 is released, I personally won't be giving them that kind of advance.

Assuming they can even earn 10% on "that kind of advance", one week's worth of interest on $1500 is about $2.75.

Stick it to the man!
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post #544 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Looks like World Wide Stereo (new authorized vendor) has set the new low mark with a current sale using coupon code "EMPLOYEE" through 9/21 providing a 25% savings. However, considering Electronics Expo has the 4310 marked down 41%, odds are they'll be starting out at 25-30% off MSRP for the 4311 when it becomes available.

Previously, World Wide Stereo was offering pre-orders of the 4311 for MSRP of $1998 and appeared to be the first to do so amongst the authorized dealers. Now with the 25% off, the delivered priced is $1500 and that is hard to pass up. I have ordered one via Amazon payment and have received a confirmation via e-mail.
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post #545 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

+1. That's why I'm seriously thinking of getting a 4311 and selling my Denon 4810 & SVS AS-EQ1.Mark

In theory, I completely agree with you. However, before I sell my AS-EQ1, I plan on running the following tests:

1. Run the MultEQ XT32 calibration on top of the AS-EQ1 calibration and observe the resulting curve for the sub channel.

2. Disconnect the AS-EQ1, run only the XT32 calibration, and observe the resulting curve.

Since I use the Pro Kit, I can observe the curve results in both cases. My hope is that the results from test 2 are at least as good as for test 1. But there might be a case in which a bass anomaly might not be completely corrected with only one calibration, in which case test 1 could produce the best result. I'm anxious to get my hands on the 4311 to run the tests and publish the results.
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post #546 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by iraweiss View Post

I also have a 3803 that has been an excellent and reliable companion. But, time has flown by and later this fall I'll be choosing between the usual suspects: 4311, 5008, A3000, SC-37 and moving the trusty 3803 upstairs to the bedroom.

Having wired the house with CAT6a, High-Speed HDMI with ethernet and audio return (gone fishing has a new definition), and moved into Blu-ray it's time for a change.

I know of one dealer who will carry all of them - ABT in Chicago - so I'll be able to audition them during a visit. Between what I see and hear and what I read on this forum I'll have the information I need to choose. I hope whichever option is as problem-free as the 3803.

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post #547 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post

This is fantastic info jdsmoothie; thank you for posting. However, I noticed via the FAQs that they charge the credit card as soon as the order is placed. Since it could be weeks before the 4311 is released, I personally won't be giving them that kind of advance.

I just joined the Club. I am now on pre-order from World Wide Stereo for the 4311. I used the EMPLOYEE coupon, paid via Amazon payment. A grand total of $1500. A fantastic deal!

I will be moving my AVR-4308 to the bedroom.

Given all the hoopla about the amplifier section, this unit is a steal as a pre/pro! With Audyssey Mult EQ XT 32, 11.2 channels, upcoming iTunes Air Play this is the pre-pro to beat (I guess until the Marantz AV8005 comes out - if ever).

The new Audyssey is my main reason for pulling the trigger and the reason I eliminated the Marantz AV7005. I use dynamic volume and would really like to pull my velodyne subwoofer in the equation. After reading the 4311 manual, there seems to be much more control over the Audyssey settings compared to the 4308.

The upcoming Integra DHC 80.2/Onkyo PR-SC5508 are only 9 channels, and I find the need for the optional HD radio set on them to be annoying.

Besides, if you use the 4311 as a pre-pro, does the lack of THX certification really mean anything, or the weight of the unit for that matter?

After careful reading, it looks like you can set the pre-amp out mode to turn off the main amplifiers, but still set the amp assign to ZONE 2 and ZONE 3. Cool. Just saved me a 4 channel amp!

I already have an Emotiva XPA-5. With the $500 bucks I just saved, I can start planning to pick up a UPA-2 (or two?) to power my front height and surround backs.

SWEET.
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post #548 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by InterestedUser View Post

I consider the 3808 to be the first of the Upper Middle tier receivers in the Denon 2008-2009 product line. Is the 4311/A100 at the same level as a 3808 or is it a 4308 or 5308 model equalivant? Will there a be superior model in the 2010-2011 product line or is this their top model?

Personally, I think the 4311 is closer to a 4308 equivalent. Considering that the price and feature set are roughly the same.

I have the impression that there will be more higher end Denon xx11 models introduced at Cedia.

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post #549 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 09:32 PM
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Swancoat, well said. Heck, I have a 120 lb home built server with 40 Tb of storage. Geez, that's only 3 lbs of storage components per TB. What has technology been up to these last 40 Years? Going back a good 20 years, a decent TB would have demanded at least 10,000 lbs of equipment per TB. Goes to show, they don't make them like they used to. Oh the server does have a nice 850 W power supply that weighs a bit.

Moronic math..... Consider the source...

Also, previously I mentioned an amp at 18 lbs. It was a Bel Canto, mono block that normally eats 15 w of power. Yes, I know, different type of an amplifier than the Denon's but my point is technology changes, advances, and usually shrinks in weight.
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post #550 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shoresguy View Post

I just joined the Club. I am now on pre-order from World Wide Stereo for the 4311. I used the EMPLOYEE coupon, paid via Amazon payment. A grand total of $1500. A fantastic deal!

I did too. All I was waiting for was a 25% discount from an authorized dealer. I bought my 3808 from an unauthorized dealer for $1100 off Amazon about 3 years. At the time it was a good deal. I have been lucky and haven't had any problems with it.

Quote:


I will be moving my AVR-4308 to the bedroom.

I will be moving my 3808 upstairs to the family room. I just told my wife tonight that I was thinking of getting a new receiver and moving my 3808 upstairs. At first she was like whatever, but then I told her that she would be able to see the volume bar when changing the volume. That perked her right up! There is a cheap Sony AVR up there right now that doesn't show the volume changing on screen.

Quote:


Given all the hoopla about the amplifier section, this unit is a steal as a pre/pro! With Audyssey Mult EQ XT 32, 11.2 channels, upcoming iTunes Air Play this is the pre-pro to beat (I guess until the Marantz AV8005 comes out - if ever).

Given that this AVR is a bit higher-end than my 3808, I tend to agree with you. If I had an 4308 like you, I would have a little harder time upgrading right now. The feature set of the 4311 is great...

Quote:


The new Audyssey is my main reason for pulling the trigger...

This and the fact that it is Audyssey Pro capable which is VERY important to me.

Quote:


Besides, if you use the 4311 as a pre-pro, does the lack of THX certification really mean anything, or the weight of the unit for that matter?

I will be using all 9 amps (wides and surround backs) therefore I am banking on the this AVR having enough juice to power all my Def Techs. They are pretty efficient speakers so I shouldn't have a problem. It will be even less of a problem if I ever get a 2- or 3-channel amp to drive my fronts.

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post #551 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Also, previously I mentioned an amp at 18 lbs. It was a Bel Canto, mono block that normally eats 15 w of power. Yes, I know, different type of an amplifier than the Denon's but my point is technology changes, advances, and usually shrinks in weight.

Yeah, and most of that is chassis because the actual amp - the 1000ASP module - probably weighs about two or three pounds at best.
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post #552 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Swancoat View Post


Honestly, it sounds like you'd be happy if Denon just strapped a steel plate to the bottom. Sadly, they would probably sell a ton on the back of that.

Ironically, the PS Audio GCA-100 chassis I have has a 5/16" steel plate welded to the top cover inside for no apparent reason but to add weight since they didn't do it in the multi channel chassis....
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post #553 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 11:27 PM
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great 1500 was my price point to make me get a 4311 instead of the A100 I preordered.. decisions... ah screw it.. sticking with A100.

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post #554 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I have the impression that there will be more higher end Denon xx11 models introduced at Cedia.

There was talk about an AVP "lite" a while back - I wonder if that might be back on the the table...

The key to the 4311's performance as a pre pro will be the how good its' analog output stage is. There's no reason to think it won't be competent.

Personally I really wish that someone would come out with a high-powered true class D receiver with the same processing and features as the 4311. By "true class D" I mean something along the tripath or equibit technologies where the DAC is the amp. (For all intents and purposes.)

The trouble with that is it wouldn't weigh much or waste much energy so no-one would buy it.....

TaCT has been making some class D gear with room correction for quite a while, and it's probably the best sounding two channel stuff I've ever heard. But talk about big bucks... yikes.
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post #555 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post

great 1500 was my price point to make me get a 4311 instead of the A100 I preordered.. decisions... ah screw it.. sticking with A100.



That's certainly up to you, but I sure don't see anything that makes the A100 worth $1000 more than this discounted price the 4311 is going for. Functionally they are the same, physically other than for the gold plated terminals and the gloss black finish they are pretty much the same thing. As for the A100's "certificate of origin" it comes with, BFD! I could see the A100 at maybe $200 or so more, just for the fact it has the longer 5 year warranty and the gold plated terminals. But a grand more, no way.
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post #556 of 23370 Old 09-18-2010, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Swancoat View Post

I've been following this thread mainly looking for info on the release date on this AVR, but had to respond to this statement, mainly because you started the post with "Do the math."

You're actually implying that an XX% increase in power should be met by the same XX % increase in weight? In that case, I recommend buying the AVR-A100, since it has the cast iron feet, will weigh more, and undoubtedly be better. (You know, since there will be less of a 'weight loss when compared per amplified channel).

Honestly, it sounds like you'd be happy if Denon just strapped a steel plate to the bottom. Sadly, they would probably sell a ton on the back of that.

But going back to power to weight... What do you think a straight up pre/pro should weigh? 0lbs? A 100% power loss should be worth about a 100% weight loss right.

Weight/power ratio champ is probably a 1st gen iPod. They're real heavy for the amount of power they produce.

And because a lighter receiver is ALWAYS better. It's just ridiculous to think weight has no importance what so ever. Considering the 4311 only consumes 780 watts, they had to trim on the amps or the power supply. You honestly think they gave you all those features on that receiver for only 2k and didn't skimp? I mean to people using the 4311 as a preamp it won't really matter about the amps/power supply. Now possibly for the people not using an external amp it may matter. You won't know till people get their hands on it. The issue isn't just weight it is also how much power it consumes. You telling me they put in a class D amp? The 4810 weighs 4 more lbs and has same amount of channels. Can you tell me where they cut the 4lbs from? Is it so wrong to say they cut down on the amp or power supply? It may or may not have an effect. We don't know till people actually use it and test it. It is just funny to see people acting like other people noticing a weight and power consumption difference like we are saying the earth is flat.

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post #557 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post


And because a lighter receiver is ALWAYS better. They are just giving you state of the art equipment.

I don't think we Said that. On the camp that defends all things Denon either. My point is that people want simple answers to complex equipment. more weight is ALWAYS better, a 2 cent more expensive part MUST be better. This kind of thought process is ridiculous. it's pathetic and stupid. No one even has this thing yet and arguments gravitate to lunatic, silly junk like lbs and whatever. Doesn't anyone on these tech blogs read about psychology? We have classic anchoring, delusional analysis, and a whole host of other oddness.

I do believe the compromise on amps does not work for my B&W 803s. They drop down to 3.2 ohms and require some mighty knarly power to play great at reference. The teeny, weeny weight Bel Canto's I mentioned are known to be a bit light for mid bass. thus, I have external crazy heavy mono blocks for my fronts. Emotiva makes some old school brick class A/B amps I like. I even enjoy the retro 80s lights of the dang things..... But, I keep harping on this 8 lbs on a mid price receiver don't mean squat. The Emo's have the power in the mid range I crave. the Denon is a bit muted and somehow subjectively slower to respond.

Fixation on weight is just nuts. I do know that the Onkyo's. Which are fine but I have bias, run hot. heat usually means inefficiency in power, processing or whatever. An electrical engineer would tell you to dissipate this heat through heat sinks, ventilation or a combination of both. Since the O's run hot, are they better, worse, or maybe, just maybe designed differently. They require more weight to dissipate heat and, yes, from what I know represent slightly higher and beefier amp sections. Lots of debate here but it could be conceded in previous amp sections.

In the end we evaluate based on performance, features, and good lord, dare I say it...... Sound and Video functionality. I, for one, don' t hold up my equipment, while I watch a movie. my receiver is not a barbell weight.

I'll say it again.............. Weight is not a direct correlation to quality. If so, the quite sweet (but somewhat technology dated) Pioneer equipment is all junk..... The stuff just doesn't get all that hot and weighs less per watt RMS.
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post #558 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post


And because a lighter receiver is ALWAYS better. It's just ridiculous to think weight has no importance what so ever. Considering the 4311 only consumes 780 watts, they had to trim on the amps or the power supply. You honestly think they gave you all those features on that receiver for only 2k and didn't skimp? I mean to people using the 4311 as a preamp it won't really matter about the amps/power supply. Now possibly for the people not using an external amp it may matter. You won't know till people get their hands on it. The issue isn't just weight it is also how much power it consumes. You telling me they put in a class D amp? The 4810 weighs 4 more lbs and has same amount of channels. Can you tell me where they cut the 4lbs from? Is it so wrong to say they cut down on the amp or power supply? It may or may not have an effect. We don't know till people actually use it and test it. It is just funny to see people acting like other people noticing a weight and power consumption difference like we are saying the earth is flat.

Yes, I'm guessing the crappy network wi-fi card, the 1 inch taller box, the beefier speaker terminals, a few additional internal parts and probably a lb or two on the power supply as so many here fear. Could be the feet and possibly an internal bracing somewhere. Who cares? The 4810 is a grand more. If you want a 4810 equivalent, just wait a while or buy something else. It will be replaced.

Everyone skips this, ebut the 4810 is not set to drive 4 ohm speakers. The 4311 is....... Damn, there I go actually bringing up a valid feature. Let's all keep the weight thing going. To hell with what the thing does.
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post #559 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 04:29 AM
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Anybody else notice the double fans on the 4311 image on AVR-4311CI_Lit_913.pdf? They are on the bottom on both sides of the transformer, under the heat sinks. Any idea how frequently they will run, and how much noise they will generate?

Have earlier models had these fans? Is Denon using fans to allow for lighter heat sinks?
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post #560 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I don't think we Said that.

Ok, but...

Quote:


more weight is ALWAYS better, a 2 cent more expensive part MUST be better.

I don't think anyone said that either.

Quote:


This kind of thought process is ridiculous. it's pathetic and stupid. No one even has this thing yet and arguments gravitate to lunatic, silly junk like lbs and whatever. Doesn't anyone on these tech blogs read about psychology? We have classic anchoring, delusional analysis, and a whole host of other oddness.

And up until now, I don't think anyone has reduced it down to belittling the opinions of others. People are just questioning where the weight reduction is coming from, and what the impact might be. What's so wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

The trouble with that is it wouldn't weigh much or waste much energy so no-one would buy it.....

I think most here understand that different technologies like digital amps and switching power supplies have effects on efficiency and weight.
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Originally Posted by Jarno View Post

Anybody else notice the double fans on the 4311 image on AVR-4311CI_Lit_913.pdf? They are on the bottom on both sides of the transformer, under the heat sinks. Any idea how frequently they will run, and how much noise they will generate?

Not that it's any indication of the implementation of the 4311, but my Onkyo 875 has dual fans, and I couldn't tell you if they've ever come on. In the Onkyos, maybe they could stand to come on a little more often. I expect they would likely be designed to come on in high heat situations, which would mean high power for extended periods. If you're outputting that much power, chances are there's enough coming out of the speakers to completely drown out whatever noise some small, likely low rpm fans can put out.

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post #561 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Swancoat View Post

Assuming they can even earn 10% on "that kind of advance", one week's worth of interest on $1500 is about $2.75.

Stick it to the man!

Oh please, that is not what I meant at all. I am not comfortable putting down $1500 on a product with no definitive release date. That's just me. It is quite common for e-tailers to charge the credit card only upon shipment so I figured I'd give folks the heads up and apparently was too flippant with my comments.

I know there are a lot of folks looking to "stick it to" the big, "evil" retailers and corporations, but I am certainly not one of them. Please relax. I appreciate that it's a great opportunity (which is why I thanked the original poster in the first place!) and who knows, by the end of the day I might change my mind.

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post #562 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Looks like World Wide Stereo (new authorized vendor) has set the new low mark with a current sale using coupon code "EMPLOYEE" through 9/21 providing a 25% savings.

Thanks for the heads up! I ordered one this morning and very pleased with the price It hasn't been easy trying to decide between the Onkyo 5008, Integra 80.2, Denon AV100, and Denon 4311 but I feel good with my decision.

Now if I can sell my Denon 3808ci (20 months old) life would be good

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post #563 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post

Oh please, that is not what I meant at all. I am not comfortable putting down $1500 on a product with no definitive release date. That's just me. It is quite common for e-tailers to charge the credit card only upon shipment so I figured I'd give folks the heads up and apparently was too flippant with my comments.

That's a valid point but would not have deterred me even if I had known about it. Besides with Amazon behind it via the pay route, the order can always be canceled if some unbelievable offer for the 4311 occurs between now and the release date. As to the release date, no one besides Denon knows when that is. The authorized online dealers don't even know, but are listing it on some of their websites in anticipation. Hopefully, it won't be in November or December. Given Denon's 100th anniversary, a release date of sometime in October would make sense. That and with the yen appreciating versus the dollar, one might think that Denon would want to get it out as soon as possible. Of course, Denon could raise the MSRP in which case $1500 would be a super bargain.
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post #564 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 09:50 AM
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I'm always uncomfortable talking marketing but I pre-ordered my 4311 for about the same discount from an authorized dealer that will charge when the unit arrives (they're the ones that said 27-Sep). Of course I like to shop "locally". So I don't mind paying an extra $50 (+ tax) for something I can pick-up in person. Sadly I don't have an out-of-state address for them to bill.
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post #565 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 09:51 AM
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My pre-ordering a 4311 is all batpig's fault when he suggested in the 3311 thread that I should look at it for its handling of two sub's. This will be my first foray into higher end AVRs and I doubt that I will be disappointed.
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post #566 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

That's a valid point but would not have deterred me even if I had known about it. Besides with Amazon behind it via the pay route, the order can always be canceled if some unbelievable offer for the 4311 occurs between now and the release date. As to the release date, no one besides Denon knows when that is. The authorized online dealers don't even know, but are listing it on some of their websites in anticipation. Hopefully, it won't be in November or December. Given Denon's 100th anniversary, a release date of sometime in October would make sense. That and with the yen appreciating versus the dollar, one might think that Denon would want to get it out as soon as possible. Of course, Denon could raise the MSRP in which case $1500 would be a super bargain.

1500 is a super bargain in my opinion. Denon A100 will probably be sometime in October for sure. I know some places like CrutchField have a date of 11/1/10 but they pad the date I'm sure. For instance I got my LEDTV about 1 month before the date listed on the website @ CF

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post #567 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

The 4810 weighs 4 more lbs and has same amount of channels. Can you tell me where they cut the 4lbs from? Is it so wrong to say they cut down on the amp or power supply? .

The 4311 is the same physical size as a 3808, NOT the 4810. It's an inch shorter like I said earlier. I don't know why people are comparing this to the 4810 when it's most likely an upgraded 3808 topography and not a downgraded 4810.

4311; Width 17.1" x Height 6.7" x Depth 16.6"

3808; Width 17.1" x Height 6.7" x Depth 16.5"

4810; Width 17.1" x Height 7.7" x Depth 16.7"

An inch is huge, picture any of your components an inch taller... of course it'll be heavier just on that alone..
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post #568 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post


The 4311 is the same physical size as a 3808, NOT the 4810. It's an inch shorter like I said earlier. I don't know why people are comparing this to the 4810 when it's most likely an upgraded 3808 topography and not a downgraded 4810.

4311; Width 17.1" x Height 6.7" x Depth 16.6"

3808; Width 17.1" x Height 6.7" x Depth 16.5"

4810; Width 17.1" x Height 7.7" x Depth 16.7"

An inch is huge, picture any of your components an inch taller... of course it'll be heavier just on that alone..

I said that as well earlier but some don't walk to look at specs. The 4810 is clearly a different beast than the 4311. The 4311 is, like you said more of the replacement to the old 38XX series.

I know I am getting, in some quality aspects, a cheaper receiver but zi'm also shaving off almost $1k in less than a year.
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post #569 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 11:17 AM
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My problem with pre-order is that it's too early to read any reviews....so I'm not sure what I'm getting and not getting (other than what I read in the specs). So I'll wait and hope that I can match the price after the reviews hit.
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post #570 of 23370 Old 09-19-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ghstudio View Post

My problem with pre-order is that it's too early to read any reviews....so I'm not sure what I'm getting and not getting (other than what I read in the specs). So I'll wait and hope that I can match the price after the reviews hit.

I am afraid that if I get this that I will end up with the same SQ that I was getting from the 4310. I was somewhat happy with it. I am taking a chance and going with the Anthem AVR. I am going with the ARC this time.
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