The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

That would be nice. Please post or PM me if they tell you they can do that. Didn't realize the Denon warehouse is here in CA.

Typically companies like Denon only want to ship bulk palletized orders to their distributors not individual single unit orders to end users/customers. Some (very few) warehouses will drop ship items to end users. Even then it’s mostly for big ticket items, like an $15,000 AVP/POA preamplifier/amplifier combo where they sell few and they are very expensive to ship.
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post #632 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 06:25 PM
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For those who pre-ordered from World Wide Stereo and used their Amazon.com account at check out are you able to see this transaction in your order history?


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post #633 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 06:39 PM
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No, it's not visible in the order history.
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post #634 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 06:40 PM
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Yes, you can log onto your Amazon account and see the transaction completely.
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post #635 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 06:43 PM
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Let me clarify that: It is not under your standard Amazon account. You will not see the order history there. You go to "My Accounts" and log in under Amazon Payments.
The transaction is in the Amazon Payments sub account.
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post #636 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

For those who pre-ordered from Wide World Stereo and used their Amazon.com account at check out are you able to see this transaction in your order history?


Willie

I only see it under Amazon Payments/Account Activity/Order Details as an open order. Interesting that it's not under Your Account/Your Orders where all my other order history is maintained.

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post #637 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigabite View Post

I only see it under Amazon Payments/Account Activity/Order Details as an open order. Interesting that it's not under Your Account/Your Orders where all my other order history is maintained.

I read some the details of Amazon Payments and it's kind of like Amazon's version of PayPal with a more features. It actually has it's own web address: https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/index.htm


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post #638 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanquen View Post


I have a 6.2 setup and was wondering if I could bi-amp the Front Left and Right speaker in the 6.2 setup or is that for a two speaker stereo only setup?

Would you really be able to tell the difference between the same speaker with one amp for the tweeter and woofer and one amp for each?

Simple answer, and of course I set myself up to be skewered but......... You have one lone power supply in all these units. In addition, you have independent signal that almost always drives each speaker with varying (never the same) signal. So, since one power supply drives everything, Bi-Amping your fronts is an exercise in futility. Unless, you wish to impress your buds with 2 runs of some esoteric uber-nuts expensive speaker cable.

In summary, if your fronts need tons-o-power for a multiple set of milliseconds front theater cannon shot, simple wiring should suffice.

Everyone, feel free to disagree.

it's all good.
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post #639 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Simple answer, and of course I set myself up to be skewered but......... You have one lone power supply in all these units. In addition, you have independent signal that almost always drives each speaker with varying (never the same) signal. So, since one power supply drives everything, Bi-Amping your fronts is an exercise in futility. Unless, you wish to impress your buds with 2 runs of some esoteric uber-nuts expensive speaker cable.

In summary, if your fronts need tons-o-power for a multiple set of milliseconds front theater cannon shot, simple wiring should suffice.

Everyone, feel free to disagree.

Very sound advice. You had me with >>Bi-Amping your fronts is an exercise in futility.<<

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post #640 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanquen View Post

I have a 6.2 setup and was wondering if I could bi-amp the Front Left and Right speaker in the 6.2 setup or is that for a two speaker stereo only setup?

Would you really be able to tell the difference between the same speaker with one amp for the tweeter and woofer and one amp for each?

It can be done, but then you lose the 9.2 unless you add another amp. This is a non issue for a 7.1 system, meaning that the front R&L can be bi-amped, so the same would apply to a 6.1 system. This is detailed in the manual, available online from Denon. As to whether or not one can tell the difference, one just has to try it and find out. I will certainly try it out and bi-amp my fronts in a 7.1 system, having not much interest in 9.2 or 11.2 systems at this time. The 4311 gives a lot of flexibility and the bi-amp is just icing on the cake with the major attraction for me being XT32 and the dual sub management.
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post #641 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 3311 and 991 also use the same DACs as in the 4311. The 991 spec sheet shows 2 DACs/channel or 14 total which would imply that the 4311 would have 18 DACs.

Thanks jd, good info as usual. I guess my next question (directed at anyone) would then be why one would employ two 8-channel DACs per channel!? Why not just use a 2-channel DAC per channel? Can they save that many pennies using a 8-channel DAC over a comparable-quality 2-channel DAC? More channels per DAC result in a cheaper DAC? It's obviously not this simple, or is it?

I'm not questioning Denon or trying to play engineer; I'm just curious, trying to learn, and I find the math interesting.

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post #642 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 08:16 PM
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Hi all

Do any of you guys have a release date on the 4311 as yet?
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post #643 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by glenncol View Post

Hi all

Do any of you guys have a release date on the 4311 as yet?

I received an e-mail from wwstereo stating the units should be shipping from their warehouse the second of October, maybe earlier (on can only hope).
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post #644 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by setanta View Post

" I can confirm that both receivers are manufactured in Japan and both use AK4358B DACs"

Ain't it grand that the $2000 4311CI, the $349 591, and every Denon AVR in between this year all use the same AKM AK4358 8 channel DACs? Must be a great DAC.



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post #645 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post


Ain't it grand that the $2000 4311CI, the $349 591, and every Denon AVR in between this year all use the same AKM AK4358 8 channel DACs? Must be a great DAC.



AJ

Good lord, it's a silly little part. Time to think happy thoughts and find your happy spot!
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post #646 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Ain't it grand that the $2000 4311CI, the $349 591, and every Denon AVR in between this year all use the same AKM AK4358 8 channel DACs? Must be a great DAC.



AJ

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post #647 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post


Ain't it grand that the $2000 4311CI, the $349 591, and every Denon AVR in between this year all use the same AKM AK4358 8 channel DACs? Must be a great DAC.



AJ

What? They all use the same one? Do you have any theories on what this means? I haven't heard anyone mention the DAC's yet. Classy of Denon to put their top-shelf DAC in the 591 though. A lot of other companies probably cheap out and put a much lower spec DAC in their entry level machines. Thanks for pointing this out! Denon for life!

I also notice they use the same power cords and volume knobs across their line. Any thoughts on this one?
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post #648 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 3311 and 991 also use the same DACs as in the 4311. The 991 spec sheet shows 2 DACs/channel or 14 total which would imply that the 4311 would have 18 DACs.

A 7.1 channel configuration requires eight channels of D/A conversion. An 11.2 channel configuration, as in the 4311CI w/ its two separately EQ'd sub outputs, requires 13 channels of D/A conversion. If Denon is truly twinning DACs per channel in a dual differential design, then the 4311CI needs 26 channels of D/A conversion, thus four monolithic 8 channel AK4358 DACs w/ potentially three unused channels on two of the DACs. However, the two DACs per channel dual differential spec is probably a stretch. The AK4358 is inherently a differential design by itself (i.e. each channel has both + and - outputs). So, Denon is probably counting that as a dual differential design, as Denon likewise bent the truth w/ its Burr Brown PCM1791A "dual differential" implementations in prior AVRs.

http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/...58/ak4358.html

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post #649 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Swancoat View Post

What? They all use the same one? Do you have any theories on what this means? I haven't heard anyone mention the DAC's yet. Classy of Denon to put their top-shelf DAC in the 591 though. A lot of other companies probably cheap out and put a much lower spec DAC in their entry level machines. Thanks for pointing this out! Denon for life!

Denon's "classy" move was to put a mid grade DAC in the 4311CI.

AJ
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post #650 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Simple answer, and of course I set myself up to be skewered but......... You have one lone power supply in all these units. In addition, you have independent signal that almost always drives each speaker with varying (never the same) signal. So, since one power supply drives everything, Bi-Amping your fronts is an exercise in futility. Unless, you wish to impress your buds with 2 runs of some esoteric uber-nuts expensive speaker cable.

In summary, if your fronts need tons-o-power for a multiple set of milliseconds front theater cannon shot, simple wiring should suffice.

Not wanting to disagree, but do you mean from a power delivery perspective or frequency separation perspective?

Can you explain your meaning?

/noob
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post #651 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 09:57 PM
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Anticipation is keeping me waiting.

Well, here I sit, watching a couple shows with my seriously crippled 4810. For those of you wishing, wanting, and not yet knowing you even need the features of these new Receivers (Be they Marantz, Onkyo, Denon whatever). I have become accustomed to 11.2 full EQ'd, Dynamic Volumed mega machine. Now the 4810 is reduced to max Dolby PLIIx with no EQ and no DSX.

So...... Very subjectively stated.... Life without these features blows..... Big time.

First, as you can see on the 4810 thread, life with EQ is good, very good. Life with Wides is better, noticeably better. Life with the full meal deal is fantastic (H + W). Finally, life with Dynamic Volume is actually life not divorced. That would be because I can watch movies late at night without waking the household.

So, I sit in my media room tonight thinking about that lone Indian (not PC, I know) from the old trash ad from the 70's, with that single tear running down his face. That is the loss of the 4810. For all of those soon to be owners, it's time to get jazzed. Although the innards matter, it's time to focus on the features. More importantly, how you intend to deploy them for you. Many think I'm some kind of Denon nut but that's far from the case. If any company provided the goodies I wanted at 3 times the cost, I'd snag it today. The two Denon's in question have what I want and noticeably what I don't want (wireless network crap).

So, because I am an older owner of another similar product. I have experience. Here's my list of goodies.

1). 11.2 holy cap, with a $700 sub eq system to boot. Also, after much use, the Audyssey DSX capability is not smoke and mirrors, not set up to enhance just cathedral sized rooms, and not just a couple of speakers for background noise. It rocks times 10.
2). EQ functions. I don't care who does it but the Audyssey system is good and market leading.Now I get that 32 thingy to boot.
3). Volume functions. If your current receiver doesn't have it.....Prepare to be happy and please the misses.
4). The very cool ability to overlay sound systems on any signal. You want DSX +W and PLIIx...click a button....done..
5). That whole kill da amps feature. I am trying to figure out how to fit one more external amp without the significant other noticing a final 60 lb 3 channel external monster amp. Can I stick it in the wall? Crap what if she notices another three blue lights in the closet? It took her a couple months to figure out my center grew from a HTM2 to a 3s. How far can I press this?
6). A GUI that is way slick and a process I understand.
7). Although, I am not a big network need guy, I do like Pandora...... That's new.

What I could care zilch about.... advanced network capabilities. ( I have Sonos.....Rocks!!!) 3D pass through.... I'm a projector guy and we have a few years to figure this all out. Amps.... Wish the thing was a Pre. I don't need the Amps but hey, compared to the comp it's sort of a free bee with the kill da amps thing. Gazillions of legacy connections. All I want is HDMI. Seriously, does anyone still use S-Video....Too much old pluggy things. (big words here).

Oh, yes and what flipping audio part they use, that is if my mid 40 ears can actually tell. Hey, for those out there who think their old crusty ears can discern a single internal part, I have some great 2000 Bordeaux to sell ya for $400 a bottle cuz it tastes, like way better than a nice $30 aged local Cabernet blend. It's that one French grape in bin # 3708 that matters. Let the vintner do his thing ya over analyzers.

For those who have this or any of the latest heavily loaded receivers on order, get ready for some serious fun.
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post #652 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Good lord, it's a silly little part.

A machine is no better than the sum of its parts.

Look at it this way. The 4311CI has cutting edge features but mid grade parts. It truly seems like a $500 mid level AVR embellished w/ $1500 in features. Only a year or so from now when even newer technologies (e.g. DTS Neo X, Audyssey MultEQ XT64, etc.) have rendered those formerly cutting edge features in the 4311CI passé, it will be little more than the sum of its parts -- those of a mid level AVR.

AJ
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post #653 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Ain't it grand that the $2000 4311CI, the $349 591, and every Denon AVR in between this year all use the same AKM AK4358 8 channel DACs? Must be a great DAC.

Well when you can pick out one DAC over another in a properly done DBT, get back to us with the proof of such a thing. And I'm guessing, that you doing that will never ever happen! And without you doing that, all you are really doing with this criticizing which DAC's they do or do not use, is nothing more than BS!
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post #654 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:18 PM
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post #655 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tephra View Post


Not wanting to disagree, but do you mean from a power delivery perspective or frequency separation perspective?

Can you explain your meaning?

/noob

It's ok... I'm convinced I will be permanently techno noobie for life. The answer AFAIK is the power supply delivers as needed to each channel. Frequency separation and for that matter, individual channel frequency response is separate and follows the discrete topography of each channel. So, 20 Hz to say 25Khz +- o.something ish is what each amp section does.

Wow, I'm sounding confused. Try this out... Look at the chassis opened up. You have one power supply and 9 individual amp (sections). Each amp section sucks power from the power supply but since each channel only needs what it needs when it needs it you can draw and therefore deliver quite a bit of power to say, the center channel while very little is drawn from and needed from the the Left Rear Surround.

I hang out and listen to tons of movies in my media room and believe me, the Left Rear Surround doesn't get much use and demands very little of the Denon power supply. I have, like a gazillions external amps, basically because I have a disease for watt-o-crazy grunt. In no way do my Heights or Rear Surrounds need much power at all. I could argue the whole dynamic power needs on reserve gobbledygook and this argument may, in fact be discernible and accurate but........ I doubt it. No offenses to the power hungry... I am your brother with 3 XPA-1s.

Crazy amps are like large V-8s. Yes, sometimes my car can actually use the extra torque and HP and quite often can tell I have it under the hood.... But for my daily commute, I don't really get to floor it and for most times I don't need it.

If one questions the hp's of the 4311, I am the first one to tell you to offload the grunt work to an Emotiva XPA-3. I still stick to my dislike of bi-amping. A mid power receiver is silly. It's almost all just a cheap marketing flexibility ploy. This goes to my response, if you don't need or want sub EQ and true 11.2, most people would be better off with the 3311 and an external amp.
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post #656 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post


A machine is no better than the sum of its parts.

Look at it this way. The 4311CI has cutting edge features but mid grade parts. It truly seems like a $500 mid level AVR embellished w/ $1500 in features. Only a year or so from now when even newer technologies (e.g. DTS Neo X, Audyssey MultEQ XT64, etc.) have rendered those formerly cutting edge features in the 4311CI passé, it will be little more than the sum of its parts -- those of a mid level AVR.

AJ

Ok, DAC wars be damned here. I will try and say this as succinctly as possible.

The big challenge on receiver/Pres is to pick the right price point vis a vis feartures that is right for you. Of all my components, the Receiver/Pre is the quickest component to reach obsolescence. It depreciates the quickest and is hard to even give away after 3 to 7 years. If I wanted the most expensive receiver with the most features, I'd just go out and buy the damn thing. These same thoughts are being processed by all the manufacturers as they develop product to provide/sell to the masses. I would and have spent $10k on speakers knowing full well they will be with me for 20 years. my receiver is very, very disposable.... As it should be.

Your whacked obsession with a part is well....... Whacked. Oh, also weight. If a competitor provided the features I wanted at the price I wanted to pay, I'd buy it and hold my nose at it's looks. For all these comments you have been unable to even acknowledge your ability to hear a difference or acknowledge that perhaps Denon has reached some fault tolerance they feel is just some degree of inaudible on top of inaudible. How weird do we need to get here? It's about features, sound quality, switching, video, power to drive your room, GUI, and if available, ability to make toast. If Denon can do this and not buy a certain part, what's the deal. Oh, that's right, the implication is that they are cheap crazy nuts out to take our money.

Go pick your receiver but I'd look a touch further than a part and a lb.
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post #657 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

You have one power supply and 9 individual amp (sections). Each amp section sucks power from the power supply but since each channel only needs what it needs when it needs it you can draw and therefore deliver quite a bit of power to say, the center channel while very little is drawn from and needed from the the Left Rear Surround.

So in theory, if you have a 5.1 receiver, with 100 watts rated output per channel, and you only hookup one channel you can draw 500watts?

probably not, but you are saying definitely more than 100w (without increasing THD)

ok so what about bi-amping for frequency separation? ie keeping the lows and mids on separate wires (and amps for that matter)
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post #658 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post


A machine is no better than the sum of its parts.

Look at it this way. The 4311CI has cutting edge features but mid grade parts. It truly seems like a $500 mid level AVR embellished w/ $1500 in features. Only a year or so from now when even newer technologies (e.g. DTS Neo X, Audyssey MultEQ XT64, etc.) have rendered those formerly cutting edge features in the 4311CI passé, it will be little more than the sum of its parts -- those of a mid level AVR.

AJ

No, patently wrong. a machine is more than parts. It is design, implementation, manufacturing, customer service, warranty, industrial engineering, plant safety, employee quality (go tell a fry cook he's just a cog of Machine as he spits in your breakfast - hey same damn egg-part) In today's post Model T era, we buy, as you say, machines based on many qualities. Stop failing to recognize the obvious.
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post #659 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tephra View Post


So in theory, if you have a 5.1 AMP, with 100 watts per channel, and you only hookup one channel you can draw 500watts?

probably not, but you are saying definitely more than 100w (without increasing THD)

ok so what about bi-amping for frequency separation? ie keeping the lows and mids on separate wires (and amps for that matter)

Now we get technical. You are correct. If you disconnect everything but one channel and throw a 500 watt RMS load through one channel, you will most likely blow a circuit on that one channel or perhaps fry the whole thing. I don't understand all this electrical engineering stuff but you can fry that one amp section. At the Emo forums, this whole discussion is covered in detail by Emotiva's chief engineer. He states you could fry a single "rail" if you say buy their 5 channel amp and then crazy load just 2 channels. They claim this as a more theoretical problem than something they see at their service bay.

As we speak though, for a standard Denon Receiver, i'd bring it to more real terms. You're watching some bombastic flick. 2 explosions fire one big cannon shot in the front, the 4311 throws all it's got at the effect. Let's say 120 watts for a millisecond. Then there is an explosion in the surround channels that is then PLIIx processed to the rear surrounds as well. You get a need of 40 watts to the surrounds, coincidentally at the same time with a roll off of 15 watts to the rear surrounds. Your power supply just hums along producing the good juice. The amp channels take what they need. With just a smallish power supply to drive the whole thing, there still may be milliseconds when the whole enchilada is underfed but you may never tell or care. If you think you might, just go get an external amp. Bi-amping will not give you more
Power from the power supply. You already ate it all for that millisecond.

Hope this helps.
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post #660 of 23648 Old 09-21-2010, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Well when you can pick out one DAC over another in a properly done DBT, get back to us with the proof of such a thing. And I'm guessing, that you doing that will never ever happen! And without you doing that, all you are really doing with this criticizing which DAC's they do or do not use, is nothing more than BS!

Calm down. DBTs are outside the scope. And I'm not arguing for audible superiority of one DAC over another. I'm arguing for measurable quality of parts commensurate w/ the cost of a $2000 AVR. The AK4358 seems out of place, as it is a monolithic multichannel DAC that measures worse than higher end discrete stereo DACs. Denon is holding steady on MSRP but using lower quality, less expensive parts. That is not something to be admired.

AJ
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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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