The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 23364 Old 09-22-2010, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

WWS replied. It is a no go. Denon won't do it, so will have to wait like everyone else.

What do you mean, I just got mine today?



na, just kidding.
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post #722 of 23364 Old 09-22-2010, 11:15 PM
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Da world moves fast.

So, on this thread, there has been a bit of knuckle renching about the "Made in China" Issue. There is a fear of Denon, building a unit in some place other than Nippon-ville. Well, I'd say, don't sweat it.

Seriously, I'm not sure where the 4311 is made and I don't really care. Here is why. First, an assembly line in a fairly clean room is country agnostic. Japan has also elevated itself to a nation of service oriented designers. When I was a kid, they re-invented transistor manufacturing but it's been a good 20 years since their nation has been solidly competitive from a line assembly manufacturing base. If the Denon was made in Sri Lanka, I'd give it a go if Denon provided the same customer service and warranty. It's not cool at the warehouse and manufacturing level that multi-nationals are so callous to not give a flip about any single nation but....... It is what it is..... And that's the world we live in.

Heck, one capacitor is made in China, another in Malaysia, and surprisingly quite a bunch of parts in Oregon. Parts are much like Doctors without Borders. They go anywhere and come from everywhere. I blab on about this partly because I am deep in to Chinese produced audio equipment. All of these components are well built, well designed and sound good. Only a few short years ago, Chinese stuff was crappiola. not so much today. Very soon design will be Japan and the US; software perhaps from India, and raw material from our friends in Oz. it's a global world the these days.

so........ I do think there is some value in equipment built in Japan and the U.S., it's not the death knell if a company assembles in a low cost location. China is not actually a super low cost location anymore and the skill set of many manufacturers surpasses the U.S. And Japan.

So..... In summary, do not anchor on old data. Oops Behavioral stuff again.

I do, all things being equal, prefer Japanese assembly but (and a big but to boot)' the world changes daily. Be ready for esoteric audio from Shanghai soon.
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post #723 of 23364 Old 09-22-2010, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Da world moves fast.

So, on this thread, there has been a bit of knuckle renching about the "Made in China" Issue. There is a fear of Denon, building a unit in some place other than Nippon-ville. Well, I'd say, don't sweat it.

Seriously, I'm not sure where the 4311 is made and I don't really care. Here is why. First, an assembly line in a fairly clean room is country agnostic. Japan has also elevated itself to a nation of service oriented designers. When I was a kid, they re-invented transistor manufacturing but it's been a good 20 years since their nation has been solidly competitive from a line assembly manufacturing base. If the Denon was made in Sri Lanka, I'd give it a go if Denon provided the same customer service and warranty. It's not cool at the warehouse and manufacturing level that multi-nationals are so callous to not give a flip about any single nation but....... It is what it is..... And that's the world we live in.

Heck, one capacitor is made in China, another in Malaysia, and surprisingly quite a bunch of parts in Oregon. Parts are much like Doctors without Borders. They go anywhere and come from everywhere. I blab on about this partly because I am deep in to Chinese produced audio equipment. All of these components are well built, well designed and sound good. Only a few short years ago, Chinese stuff was crappiola. not so much today. Very soon design will be Japan and the US; software perhaps from India, and raw material from our friends in Oz. it's a global world the these days.

so........ I do think there is some value in equipment built in Japan and the U.S., it's not the death knell if a company assembles in a low cost location. China is not actually a super low cost location anymore and the skill set of many manufacturers surpasses the U.S. And Japan.

So..... In summary, do not anchor on old data. Oops Behavioral stuff again.

I do, all things being equal, prefer Japanese assembly but (and a big but to boot)' the world changes daily. Be ready for esoteric audio from Shanghai soon.

I would agree with you but, their have been numerous products that have come out of china and other nations with substandard build. Even though the manufacture has high standards. Cold solder joints. Just as an example. Believe me some people have issues and don't even know it. My friend had a onkyo that he said kept over heating and shutting down. And he thought it was that it was over heating because his 5 inch space above his aver wasn't enough we took it in for repair 2 weeks later he got the repair report back found numerous cold solders and repaired them. He hasn't had a problem since.

I'm not saying these problems won't occur just that when it is a home grown manufacturer their is a little more pride in making it. Also when problems occur they can be addressed by the ME (manufacturing engineer). Before it becomes a bigger problem.

Its a lot harder to control manufacturing of a product when they aren't in the same country JMO.
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post #724 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 02:50 AM
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It's the rumor mill running again.
Boards are soldered by machines (flow solder, wave solder etc.).
Only cable and some are soldered by hand.
I can't see any difference, where it is been soldered.
Even the mix of parts come from all over the world, where labor is cheap, even on the most expensive systems. Only additional money will pay fore quality inspection and testing, no matter, where its is finally built.
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post #725 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

The subwoofer end of MultEQ XT32 is in existing products - SVS AS-EQ1 and Audyssey SubEQ because they all have a filter resolution of 512x and can properly handle 2 non-colocated subs (they will adjust levels and distances for each sub and then EQ them together). Plain MultEQ XT, on the other hand, has a filter resolution of only 128x (4x less) for the subwoofer and I can assure you that there is an audible difference between it and the AS-EQ1 (which I have). I would say that the degree of improvement will also depend on the severity of the bass problems in your room. The difference -- a tighter bass (less ringing), more bass detail (flatter frequency response), more detail in other frequencies because the bass no longer overpowers those other frequencies.

However, the 4311 is not just "equivalent" to the SVS AS-EQ1. It's actually an improvement. In order to use the SVS AS-EQ1, you need to run it first (maybe take 30 minutes) and then run MultEQ on the AVR. It's a 2-step process. With the 4311, you skip the 1st step. Furthermore, when you combine the 4311 with an Audyssey MultEQ Pro kit (which I have), you can save the mic readings from the calibration. That means you can do an EQ for varying situations (single person watching, big audience, etc) and easily switch. It also makes it easier to experiment with varying mic positions during calibration and determine which is better.

The non-subwoofer end of MultEQ XT32 is totally new. The current MultEQ XT has a resolution of 16x vs. the resolution of 512x in the XT32 (or a factor of 32, hence the name "XT32"). I think it is reasonable to surmise that with a 32x increase in filter resolution, there should be an audible difference, especially in the crossover region between the subs and satellites. Having said this, I'd still like to hear it for myself, but I'd be willing to bet a good bottle of wine that there will be a distinct and audible difference.


Mark

Thanks for this. I was going to spend "x" amount of minutes spilling the same, but it seems I was busy fightng other quasi "anti-4311 battles".

Of course it will provide a difference if it's implemented correctly, you simply cannot increase resolution to such a degree and not have some noticeable, even if in some cases more suttle, improvements.

Just another ho-hum "everyman" feature on this "mid-level" AVR.

James

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post #726 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 05:47 AM
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Interesting discussion.

I can see many potential customers for this unit would have a wide variety of different requirements. From a physical perspective, some people will use this unit predominately as a pre-amp to drive a bunch of external amps. For others space is a premium in a shared functional room and they want a complete solution which provides both pre and amplifier solutions sufficient to drive the number of speakers they have.

I see the 4311 being a hybrid product with the introduction of a pre-amp mode. Many are interested in the pre-amp functions predominately, whereas others are interested it as a single solution. And hence the differing perspectives I see in this thread.

From a features perspective, I am very interested in XT32 and Sub EQ HT and believe they could make a substantial difference to the listening experience.

But firstly a question, do we believe that the 4308/4810 based designs sounds better than 3808/3311 based designs. If we believe they both sound the same and difference is only features, then potentially the 4311 could also sound the same, but with even better features.

But if we do believe they sound different - is this from the physical choice of components and design choices - for example, the design of the output stages, use of dual differential or betters DACs, or to the design of the amplifier section or the number and isolation of their power supplies etc.

What is the design heritage of the 4311? Is it a supped up 3808/3311 with more features/ports added, or is it based on the 4308/4810 but "hardware optimised" to its price point.

I assume the 4311 is cheaper than the 4308/4810 so are the compromises made immaterial to the sound quality.

Anyway, I can understand the different perspectives in this thread as people have different requirements and priorities.

But this all conjecture on my part and until the unit ships and we hear from people using it in both standalone and pre-amp modes will we be able to discern its true capabilities (and bugs )
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post #727 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugme1 View Post

I would agree with you but, their have been numerous products that have come out of china and other nations with substandard build. Even though the manufacture has high standards. Cold solder joints. Just as an example. Believe me some people have issues and don't even know it. My friend had a onkyo that he said kept over heating and shutting down. And he thought it was that it was over heating because his 5 inch space above his aver wasn't enough we took it in for repair 2 weeks later he got the repair report back found numerous cold solders and repaired them. He hasn't had a problem since.

I'm not saying these problems won't occur just that when it is a home grown manufacturer their is a little more pride in making it. Also when problems occur they can be addressed by the ME (manufacturing engineer). Before it becomes a bigger problem.

Its a lot harder to control manufacturing of a product when they aren't in the same country JMO.

Both posts are sensible.

No one with a brain between their ears would imply the Chinese (or any other nation on earth for that matter) is incapable of competently assembling an audio video receiver. That of course would be absurd.

That said however, for many of the reasons already listed, it is a numbers game. You can bet on it. CEM's DO just that regularly. It is all but common knowledge in multiple industries that identical product produced in China has a higher fail-rate than that which is pushed out by Japan.

Remember those "controversial" documents leaked by Sony 4 years ago that showed exactly that across an entire line of electronics? If I recall correctly they shut down 3 different factories in China that were manufacturing laptops that were nearly 3 times more unreliable than the identical models being made in Mexico (I believe?). I of course had one from a factory in China that was shut down of course...lasted less than a year.

Is this the case with EVERY product within EVERY industry?

Of course it isn't.

Are there companies that may even produce SUPERIOR product in China vs Japan?

You can bet there are.

Do either override the fact that, on the WHOLE, Chinese-produced product is inferior to identical product prodcued by Japan?

No. Not now at least. Indications are though that things are inproving, so that's some good news.

Will I NOT buy a 4311 if I discover it is made in China?

Absolutely not.

Will I feel a bit more secure if it says: "made in Japan" on the rear?

I will.

James

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post #728 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 06:10 AM
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People give the impression that cold solder joints are soldered by a human hand (either Chinese or Japanese in this debate) and I doubt that's the case. More likely, they are soldered by a robot and/or machine (wave solder). The question becomes more "is the process ok". The difference is the QA sample rate and how experienced those QA people are at identifying problems. QA person A may say look, all these joints pass voltage within tolerance. QA person B may say "Wait a minute!" "That's the third board with a lower light reflective sheen on several of the joints in the upper right quadrant". QA person B may hold up the whole assembly line because he see's a trend in the dullness of the color of the solder; and he has that power. Now QA person A either does not have the experience to identify a trend on that criteria, or they do not have the organizational power and confidence to stop the production line based on it. That boils down to a process issue, and yes in some cases perhaps a cultural issue.
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post #729 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 06:14 AM
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If there's anything interesting coming out of Cedia, that started yesterday, but the trade floor is just opening today. Maybe we'll get some new tidbits. I did notice that Denon has a couple of new press releases today: Remote App and a general receiver PR, both sourced from Atlanta, which suggests they've been holding off for Cedia to send these out. Maybe there's more to be learned over the next few days.

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post #730 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 06:28 AM
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Hi everyone,

I found an article that lists the 36 US dealers selected to sell the 100th Anniversary line, including the AVR-A100. Perhaps this will help those interested in the AVR-A100 find a dealer either locally or online.

Enjoy!
Josh

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Find me at: Last.fm and SA-CD.net
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post #731 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post

People give the impression that cold solder joints are soldered by a human hand (either Chinese or Japanese in this debate) and I doubt that's the case. More likely, they are soldered by a robot and/or machine (wave solder). The question becomes more "is the process ok". The difference is the QA sample rate and how experienced those QA people are at identifying problems. QA person A may say look, all these joints pass voltage within tolerance. QA person B may say "Wait a minute!" "That's the third board with a lower light reflective sheen on several of the joints in the upper right quadrant". QA person B may hold up the whole assembly line because he see's a trend in the dullness of the color of the solder; and he has that power. Now QA person A either does not have the experience to identify a trend on that criteria, or they do not have the organizational power and confidence to stop the production line based on it. That boils down to a process issue, and yes in some cases perhaps a cultural issue.

Exactly on all of your points. Really, from the consumer's standpoint (US!) the reasoning behind the discrepancy is immaterial. That's why I don't spend a lot of time playing monday morning QB. The facts are what they are.

I likely have thousands of items in my home that have been made in China and they are fine. It's just a matter knowing that even though "a" and "b" both are largely successful at a given task, if you knew that "a" yields an even higher success rate than "b" on an identical task, which would you CHOOSE?

mini-rant over.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

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post #732 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post

Hi everyone,

I found an article that lists the 36 US dealers selected to sell the 100th Anniversary line, including the AVR-A100. Perhaps this will help those interested in the AVR-A100 find a dealer either locally or online.

Enjoy!
Josh

Traditionally anyway, there are some heavy-discounters on that list, so if it will be reduced at all, the right players are on there.

thanks for this,
James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #733 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

I did notice that Denon has a couple of new press releases today:

The date is new the information is old. The reviews on the Denon app are generally quite poor. People seem reasonably irked that it (currently) only controls the latest units.
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post #734 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 07:46 AM
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The date is new the information is old.

Yes, I knew those features were already known about. Not sure why they're putting out press releases on them now. I'm just hoping that since Cedia is going on, perhaps more information will become available. It's possible that some reviewers could already have some in hand, but couldn't release info on them until Cedia.

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post #735 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

However, the 4311 is not just "equivalent" to the SVS AS-EQ1. It's actually an improvement. In order to use the SVS AS-EQ1, you need to run it first (maybe take 30 minutes) and then run MultEQ on the AVR. It's a 2-step process. With the 4311, you skip the 1st step. Furthermore, when you combine the 4311 with an Audyssey MultEQ Pro kit (which I have), you can save the mic readings from the calibration. That means you can do an EQ for varying situations (single person watching, big audience, etc) and easily switch. It also makes it easier to experiment with varying mic positions during calibration and determine which is better.
Mark

Not only that but there's also one less A/D-D/A conversion. Not a biggie if the SubEQ & AS-EQ1 is as transparent as the SEQ is, but one less step eliminated none the less.
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post #736 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 08:11 AM
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My Authorized dealer, one of the biggest and most respected Denon Dealers in the US, told me they shipped from California to his East Coast showroom on Tuesday and he expects them in hand by Monday, but we are hoping for Friday. In the meantime I am using a 3311 which replaced my $7500 Denon AVP and I gotta tell you, it is 75% as good in every way, and more feature rich and better in others, for about 25% the cost. With some of the deals you guys are getting here, it's closer to 17% the cost. I like those ratios. Give up some sound quality and user menus and pick up MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey SubEQ which to me is a feature that improve the sound better than anything else you can find. I am quite happy with my loaner 3311, can't wait to get the 4311.
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post #737 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by beever View Post

My Authorized dealer, one of the biggest and most respected Denon Dealers in the US, told me they shipped from California to his East Coast showroom on Tuesday and he expects them in hand by Monday, but we are hoping for Friday. In the meantime I am using a 3311 which replaced my $7500 Denon AVP and I gotta tell you, it is 75% as good in every way, and more feature rich and better in others, for about 25% the cost. With some of the deals you guys are getting here, it's closer to 17% the cost. I like those ratios. Give up some sound quality and user menus and pick up MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey SubEQ which to me is a feature that improve the sound better than anything else you can find. I am quite happy with my loaner 3311, can't wait to get the 4311.

Very cool if accurate. Also well said.
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post #738 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 08:43 AM
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Regarding my China comments. Many people have made great points about build issues. My point still is that manufacturing in China is changing and generally improving every day. The internal Sony comments, if 4 years ago, represent a huge time delta in electronics manufacturing. I also have no issue believing that Japanese assembled gear, also in general can be assumed to be of superior quality.

I'm a just-a sayin the gap is measurably narrower. Fault tolerances have improved and even employee skill levels have gone up considerably. Are there problems with Chinese gear? You bet. Do they still put stuff that kills people in milk? According to recent news, still yup.

Just don't right it off as poor because it is assembled or parts sourced in China. To be honest though, I'd still prefer a Japanese made unit. Old bias is hard to kill.
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post #739 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 09:08 AM
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Found some info about common NIC failures on Denon receivers that started with xx10ci series and still persist with 3311ci. Does not bode well for 4311ci.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=128814
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post #740 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 09:24 AM
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This is one of those arguments that no one will ever win. I can tell you that I have more disposable income now than I did 15 years ago and back then I had Krell Monoblocks, Levinson preamps, VAC tubes, Nakamichi Dragons, Accuphase Redbook CD players and even that big Sony SACD babdoy with the hockey puck that held the CD in place.

Contrary to many people who just do not believe or agree, in this digital age the differences to me are negligible if even audible whatsoever between all of this quality midfi equipment and the super hi end stuff.

Denon essentially makes one product and then dumbs it down and removes feature sets to lower price points or opens up the flood gates for the high end stuff to allow for all the bells and whistles. I think the same GUI is basically used across the board, the same components, the same designers and so on. The audible discernable differences between all of these components is inaudible TO ME. I am only 42 but, I have pretty good ears and hearing and can tell the differences between a 100k setup and a 10k setup. But, with the proper room acoustics, speaker setup, EQ'ing of the room and source material I can tell you with 100% certainty that the differences are less than 10% between the two. If I can get 90% of the sound quality for 10% the cost then I feel only a die hard fool, show off or true two channel fanatic would pay the extra 90K to obtain it. I won't say a multi millionaire or even a billionaire would, because I know plenty of them and even they wouldnt waste their money on it. maybe that's why they still have so much of it
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post #741 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Regarding my China comments. Many people have made great points about build issues. My point still is that manufacturing in China is changing and generally improving every day. The internal Sony comments, if 4 years ago, represent a huge time delta in electronics manufacturing. I also have no issue believing that Japanese assembled gear, also in general can be assumed to be of superior quality.

I'm a just-a sayin the gap is measurably narrower. Fault tolerances have improved and even employee skill levels have gone up considerably. Are there problems with Chinese gear? You bet. Do they still put stuff that kills people in milk? According to recent news, still yup.

Just don't right it off as poor because it is assembled or parts sourced in China. To be honest though, I'd still prefer a Japanese made unit. Old bias is hard to kill.

At the risk of being called out for talking nonsense ;-).. here's my reasoning for why a Japan manufacture of the 4311 is preferable.

Denon has told me that both A100 and 4311ci are made in Japan. They have told me that the DACs are identical. The posted manual on Denon's website for the 4311 says it's made in Japan. Everybody is agreement that the A100 is made in Japan.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the A100 and 4311 are identical internally. The external differences being the enclosure itself, gold binding posts and cast iron feet. These along with a nice certificate and an extra two years on the warranty constitute the differences as far as anyone knows at this point.

However, if the 4311 were in fact made in China that opens up the possibility (at least in my mind) for different parts being used in the internals. If there were to be "better" parts used in one of the models it's stands to reason that they would be in the Japan built A100.

This is the reason why I have ordered the 4311 with an option to return if it actually shows made in China on the unit itself.
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post #742 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by beever View Post

This is one of those arguments that no one will ever win. I can tell you that I have more disposable income now than I did 15 years ago and back then I had Krell Monoblocks, Levinson preamps, VAC tubes, Nakamichi Dragons, Accuphase Redbook CD players and even that big Sony SACD babdoy with the hockey puck that held the CD in place.

Contrary to many people who just do not believe or agree, in this digital age the differences to me are negligible if even audible whatsoever between all of this quality midfi equipment and the super hi end stuff.

Denon essentially makes one product and then dumbs it down and removes feature sets to lower price points or opens up the flood gates for the high end stuff to allow for all the bells and whistles. I think the same GUI is basically used across the board, the same components, the same designers and so on. The audible discernable differences between all of these components is inaudible TO ME. I am only 42 but, I have pretty good ears and hearing and can tell the differences between a 100k setup and a 10k setup. But, with the proper room acoustics, speaker setup, EQ'ing of the room and source material I can tell you with 100% certainty that the differences are less than 10% between the two. If I can get 90% of the sound quality for 10% the cost then I feel only a die hard fool, show off or true two channel fanatic would pay the extra 90K to obtain it. I won't say a multi millionaire or even a billionaire would, because I know plenty of them and even they wouldnt waste their money on it. maybe that's why they still have so much of it

I beat your drum incessantly around these parts, my friend. Really ignoranty so, sad to say. The plain fact is that it's impossible to convince some people that they're on fire even when their hair's burning.

If you bring up double-blind's, they'll poke holes in the testing methodology or the very inferences the results indicate. If you use anectodal "evidence", even if numbering in the thousands or millions, you can be assured that they'll counter with 200% more to the contrary.

Hell, some are crazy enough to maintain/justify the audible difference amongst the more expensive components they've chosen even when THEY THEMSELVES cannot discern one...yes, this occurs regulary.

SO, if you contend something as "foolish" as the primary criteria when choosing an AVR should largely revolve around connectivity and features (ironically, even those those that DO produce an audible improvement), you can count on being portrayed as "short-sighted" and "naive" by the usual suspects. The 4311 "in question" here is just one of the more recent, glaring examples, and again, NO ONE not filing a W-2 with Denon has even HEARD one yet, lol.

And because I'm admittedly immature at times, and worse, combative, I'll (stupidly) waste my time arguing to the contrary with these marked few who will never align with me, regardless of what I (or anyone else) brings to the table. Ditto for them I suppose.

Our best bet is to just knowingly nod and move on, leaving the words for another time and person/group (see male bonding).

You know, like being married.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #743 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 10:34 AM
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I promise to leave this subject alone after the following statement.

In my case it's like buying a car. I choose to purchase Hondas over GM/Ford.

Is it because I believe America is incapable of producing a quality, reliable automobile? Or that there are not "American" vehicles that last 15 years and 200,000 miles?

No of course to either question.

The question is: when contrasted with Honda, how do the two compare?

And, in my OWN experience, AND from the extensive data I've perused, one, while admittedly costing a slight premium, will LIKELY be more reliable.

Doesn't mean I never have or never will own an "American" automobile, or that every Honda will go 200,000 miles. Just means for now, with the data available to me, I'll choose the Honda.

I feel the Japan/China issue at question here is very comparable.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #744 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 10:41 AM
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I think it's a wonderful big free open market, with people willing to pay $8, $80, $800 or even $8,000 for a single rca (or xlr) audio interconnect or power cord. It's up to me to spot value as I define it. My sweet spot for now seems to be a 4311 at $1500 or so, with $20-$40 interconnects and about $4000 dollars worth of speakers and a $1000-1500 dollar 7 channel amp. For some folks that's going on the cheap, for others (I dare say 90% of the population) it's over the top down right crazy.
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post #745 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post

I think it's a wonderful big free open market, with people willing to pay $8, $80, $800 or even $8,000 for a single rca (or xlr) audio interconnect or power cord. It's up to me to spot value as I define it. My sweet spot for now seems to be a 4311 at $1500 or so, with $20-$40 interconnects and about $4000 dollars worth of speakers and a $1000-1500 dollar 7 channel amp. For some folks that's going on the cheap, for others (I dare say 90% of the population) it's over the top down right crazy.

Probably 98% of the population. Your choice looks great to me but most people are happy with an I-Pod and a cheap I-home base. Most would think us all crazy.
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post #746 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 11:37 AM
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...a $1000-1500 dollar 7 channel amp.

Which one?

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #747 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 11:39 AM
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Regarding my China comments. Many people have made great points about build issues. My point still is that manufacturing in China is changing and generally improving every day. The internal Sony comments, if 4 years ago, represent a huge time delta in electronics manufacturing. I also have no issue believing that Japanese assembled gear, also in general can be assumed to be of superior quality.

I'm a just-a sayin the gap is measurably narrower. Fault tolerances have improved and even employee skill levels have gone up considerably. Are there problems with Chinese gear? You bet. Do they still put stuff that kills people in milk? According to recent news, still yup.

Just don't right it off as poor because it is assembled or parts sourced in China. To be honest though, I'd still prefer a Japanese made unit. Old bias is hard to kill.


I agree with what you said. I don't think build quality is as close as you might hope though.
( cough ill take Japanese cough cough ).
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post #748 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Which one?

I'm not above going used on any HT gear really.
So I'm looking at these in no particular order:

Rotel
Arcam
Emotiva
Parasound
Anthem
Integra (onkyo)
B&K
Serbourne
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post #749 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 11:57 AM
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To all those who believe they are the same. Ask yourself if they were to sell a Chinese or a Japanese version of the 4311 which would you buy. ( be honest)

I know which one I would want. Same price even a little more.
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post #750 of 23364 Old 09-23-2010, 12:22 PM
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However, if the 4311 were in fact made in China that opens up the possibility (at least in my mind) for different parts being used in the internals. If there were to be "better" parts used in one of the models it's stands to reason that they would be in the Japan built A100.

This is the reason why I have ordered the 4311 with an option to return if it actually shows made in China on the unit itself.

They could both be built in Japan and not use the exact same internals. There's a reason there is a $500.00 difference beyond the differences we are aware of.

So you will return an item if made in Japan.

I think made in China has a bad rap from past deeds from some manufacturers. However, I would like to think QC and a little pride in ones self has improved significantly in China. I know old biases are hard to shake.

I know the laws dictate that manufacturer's list origin of build, parts, etc., but do you really know that stamped made in Japan means it was actually made in Japan. Japan knows that we are enamored with made in Japan.

A little food for thought.


Willie

Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD

Zektor MAS7.1

Classé CA-2200/CA-5200

Oppo BDP-105, Denon DVD-5910CI, Cambridge 752BD, Cambridge 640C V2

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