The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Well, this is probably more detail than necessary for this thread, but just to justify my desires: they don't roll off enough for my taste. I prefer to limit them to the infrasonics, as that just seems more natural to me. Having the room vibrate just because the guy on the news has a deep voice just doesn't seem right. I have buttkickers in the floor, and bass shakers in the furniture. The buttkickers aren't too bad, but the bass shakers have a natural resonance around 40hz, which is WAY too high for me. I use both channels of a BFD to EQ them separately, and I also have an inline low pass filter upstream of the BFD to help roll things off (in addition to some significant cuts with the BFD). I was hoping with the 4311 maybe I could simplify things a tad. If nothing else, I'll be able to get rid of the Y cable. FWIW, my sub has a -3d point around 11.5hz, so it could dip into the shaker region a bit. Fortunately though, most of my EQ needs are in the higher ranges, so Audyssey doesn't do much down there.

DARIN & BATPIG -- i am replacing an old Yamaha RXV-2095 with a new AVR soon (probably the Denon 4311). My current system includes:

1. Front Speakers = MK S100B -- 4 ohms
2. Center Speaker = MK S125C -- 4 ohms
3. Back Speaker = MK-95 -- 4 ohms
4. Subwoofer = MK MX125 II
5. Buttkicker BKA-1000 system powering 2 units screwed to the bottom of my sofa)

The challenge that i have is the one that Darin mention above -- I don't want the buttkickers to shake things up just cause the movie sountrack has some bass or an actor has a low voice. I prefer that it activate only when things BLOW UP!! I have the unit set so that only signals below 40Hz get through but this is still too high. I have to admit that i havent understood much of your back and forth with Batpig but is there something SIMPLE that i can do to filter the Buttkicker signal so only the EXPLOSIONS and the like get through?

Thanks
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post #92 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 08:37 PM
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You could try something like this but it only filters above 50 Hz. You could try it and attenuate the level of the ButtKickers a little. Easy potential solution if nothing else.

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post #93 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

1. If I have a 5 channel external amp, will I be able to run my LF, C, RF, RL, RR off of the external amp, then with preamp mode shut off the receiver's 5 channels and then run my height and/or side backs off of the receivers internal amps?

No AFAIK -- from my reading of the manual, if the receiver is in "pre amp" mode then the amps are off. The only exception would be if you are using them to power Zones 2 / 3. It's not something that is selective per channel.

Of course, you could just do what you intend (use external amp for 5 channels and internal amps for other channels), just like any other receiver with pre-amp outputs.... you just wouldn't be using the "official" pre-amp mode

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post #94 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 10:00 PM
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batpig,

Are you still using your 3808? I am thinking of moving mine to the living room (right now I am using a cheap Sony STR-DG920) and getting a 4311. Are you thinking about upgrading to a 4311 too? Or are you just keeping up with latest Denons like usual?

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post #95 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 10:03 PM
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3808? I wish! I use a 2310ci. I'm low budget

I'm keeping up because that's what I do, people are counting on me! I've got a website and stuff, so I better stay on top of these types of things

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post #96 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No AFAIK -- from my reading of the manual, if the receiver is in "pre amp" mode then the amps are off. The only exception would be if you are using them to power Zones 2 / 3. It's not something that is selective per channel.

Of course, you could just do what you intend (use external amp for 5 channels and internal amps for other channels), just like any other receiver with pre-amp outputs.... you just wouldn't be using the "official" pre-amp mode

Yes that is very true. Just trying to match the 4311 vs the Onkyo 3008/5008 to see which will be the best receiver for my needs.

Any thoughts on the difference in the wattage output between the 4311 and the 3008/5008?

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post #97 of 23364 Old 09-07-2010, 10:13 PM
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Slightly OT, but how long does it usually take Harmony to add new Denon receivers to their database?

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post #98 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 12:39 AM
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Hi Doug,

Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Slightly OT, but how long does it usually take Harmony to add new Denon receivers to their database?

I have an H1100 and in my experience Logitech has always been quite quick to react. Anyway, in this case, I would bet that there shouldn't be any major differences between the 4310 (even 4810) and 4311 remote codes, so... nothing to worry about.

Have a nice day.

Hugo

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post #99 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 02:15 AM
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JWB when you go to the Denon web page it shows a completly different picture and it says made in Japan. It would not be the first time they made a mistake on it. Where did you get your link? http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5414.asp shows something totaly different.
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post #100 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

JWB when you go to the Denon web page it shows a completly different picture and it says made in Japan. It would not be the first time they made a mistake on it. Where did you get your link? http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5414.asp shows something totaly different.

Yeh, I noticed quite a few of silkscreen differences. I got the links at the bottom of this Ecoustics page: http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/647810.html
Since the Denon's is newer, I would think it is more accurate. Maybe Denon has two manufacturing sites.
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post #101 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

I noticed the power consumption of the 4311 is 780W. I also have been looking at the Onkyo 3008/5008 and their power consumption is 1060W. Is this big of power discrepancy something I should be concerned about? As in does this mean the Onkyo has beefier amps?

It doesn't necessarily mean the Onkyo has beefier amps, though it likely means it has a bigger power supply. That could translate into more power with all channels driven. Obviously, if you factor in a typical class AB amp power of 70%, you aren't going to get 9x140wpc with only 780w. You'd only get about 60wpc, and that's before factoring in power consumption of other components, like the DSPs. Personally, I'm not overly concerned with that. When you start adding more channels, that doesn't mean you need more total power. Sounds that are redirected to the "new" channels (like height channels) should be equally reduced from the channels they were originally encoded into. If they weren't, that would mean those particular sounds would represent a higher emphasis in the overall soundfield than the recording engineer intended. You still want each channels to have the headroom for scenarios where sound IS focused at one point, but not having that much power on tap simultaneously isn't a big deal in my book, considering how many channels the soundfield is broken up into these days.

Comparing Onkyo power consumption to Denon is a little trickier. Onkyos are known for producing a lot of heat (I know, I have an 875), and from what I've read that hasn't changed in the newer models. Hard to say how the 4311 will compare, but traditionally, I don't think Denons are known for running as hot as Onkyos. Heat HAS to be the product of inefficiency (unless, of course, you are designing something with the specific purpose of heating). Whether that means Onkyo's amps are less efficient, or their DSPs consume more power, or something else, that heat represents power that isn't making it from the wall socket to the speaker terminals. But on the flip side of that, it's also possible that the Onkyo amps and Denon amps simply have a different efficiency curve. Perhaps the Onkyos don't "idle" as efficiently as the Denons (like comparing a class A amp to a class B amp), but have similar efficiency at full load. If that were the case, the the Onkyo could waste more power in typical operation, but have the same efficiency at full load.

In short, it's nearly impossible to know exactly what impact the different power consumption numbers have on actual power capabilities of the two receivers, without someone doing some bench testing. But most likely, considering the logarithmic scale of power vs. audible output, and the fact that it's spread between so many channels, the real world discernible difference in output power between these two similarly classed receivers is likely to be relatively minor.

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post #102 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MoviesLover View Post

The challenge that i have is the one that Darin mention above -- I don't want the buttkickers to shake things up just cause the movie sountrack has some bass or an actor has a low voice. I prefer that it activate only when things BLOW UP!! I have the unit set so that only signals below 40Hz get through but this is still too high.

Yes, the 40hz bottom range of the BK amp is way too high, IMO. Those f-mods also don't go low enough (I have some of those too - they also reduce the amps auto-on sensitivity). I tinkered with the idea of modding that variable low pass filter in the amp, but when I looked at it, the actual control wasn't "open" enough to do it easily. In my case, I ended up having a BFD24 parametric EQ that I had used to EQ my sub, which I no longer needed once I got a receiver with Audyssey. So I used that. They aren't too expensive, but they are overkill for what you need. You might want to check ebay and see if you can find a cheap simple parametric EQ... you don't need many bands. Even one band would likely do it. You just need to attenuate the range in between the BK amps 40hz filter, and what you really want (20-25hz, in my case). If you want to bounce some things off me, feel free to PM, I've probably taken this thread OT enough as it is.

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post #103 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 06:10 AM
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FYI: Reading the raw "consumption figure" within the UL designation on the back of an amplifier or AVR and dividing it by the number of powered channels does not supply you with a true "per channel" output specification.

That figure within the UL rating is NOT the maximum wattage/power the device is capable of outputting.

I'm not sure who exactly began this wannabe clever ploy, but I'm growing a bit tired of seeing it plastered about as if it's based upon fact and automaticaslly negates puported and/or otherwisen PROVEN specificiations.

Crucially, none of this indicating the 4311 will produce 140 watts per 9 channels, either.

rant over.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #104 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

It doesn't necessarily mean the Onkyo has beefier amps, though it likely means it has a bigger power supply. That could translate into more power with all channels driven. Obviously, if you factor in a typical class AB amp power of 70%, you aren't going to get 9x140wpc with only 780w. You'd only get about 60wpc, and that's before factoring in power consumption of other components, like the DSPs. Personally, I'm not overly concerned with that. When you start adding more channels, that doesn't mean you need more total power. Sounds that are redirected to the "new" channels (like height channels) should be equally reduced from the channels they were originally encoded into. If they weren't, that would mean those particular sounds would represent a higher emphasis in the overall soundfield than the recording engineer intended. You still want each channels to have the headroom for scenarios where sound IS focused at one point, but not having that much power on tap simultaneously isn't a big deal in my book, considering how many channels the soundfield is broken up into these days.

Comparing Onkyo power consumption to Denon is a little trickier. Onkyos are known for producing a lot of heat (I know, I have an 875), and from what I've read that hasn't changed in the newer models. Hard to say how the 4311 will compare, but traditionally, I don't think Denons are known for running as hot as Onkyos. Heat HAS to be the product of inefficiency (unless, of course, you are designing something with the specific purpose of heating). Whether that means Onkyo's amps are less efficient, or their DSPs consume more power, or something else, that heat represents power that isn't making it from the wall socket to the speaker terminals. But on the flip side of that, it's also possible that the Onkyo amps and Denon amps simply have a different efficiency curve. Perhaps the Onkyos don't "idle" as efficiently as the Denons (like comparing a class A amp to a class B amp), but have similar efficiency at full load. If that were the case, the the Onkyo could waste more power in typical operation, but have the same efficiency at full load.

In short, it's nearly impossible to know exactly what impact the different power consumption numbers have on actual power capabilities of the two receivers, without someone doing some bench testing. But most likely, considering the logarithmic scale of power vs. audible output, and the fact that it's spread between so many channels, the real world discernible difference in output power between these two similarly classed receivers is likely to be relatively minor.

Excellent post my friend, and a big plus one.

I'm sorry, but the endless banter about truly insignificant 20-30 watt per channel differences amongst AVRs drives me near delirium in these parts at times.

There are so, so, so many other worthwhile aspects of these devices that should be considered when making a selection.

Understanding power specifications, their meaning(s), and real-world implications should be required reading, IMO. It would take most about ten minutes to gain about a 90% understanding and would spare thousands of these constantly regurgitated, mostly pointless exchanges.

dons flame-suit.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #105 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 06:38 AM
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3808? I wish! I use a 2310ci. I'm low budget

I'm keeping up because that's what I do, people are counting on me! I've got a website and stuff, so I better stay on top of these types of things

BP I had some spare time early at work to try and read what you are sharing with us and it still amazes me on how you find the time to read and put in laymens terms! When I get my 4311 another Shamless donation is coming your way because I only unstood 1/4 of what you explained about speaker assignment i.e. front height front wide and rear suround. I want to keep a 7.1 in my main room and try to run a zone 2 (just stereo) to the bedroom. Can I use the front extra amps to power the zone2 and keep my rear surrounds in main listening area. And yes I haven't read the downloaded manual yet. Also on the Denon site if you blow up the rear view it says made in Japan. Any new update on that? I know another member thinks it doesn't matter where it is assembled (and maybe that's true) but after losing most of my job to a foreign country I say it does (different work attitudes) Bob
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post #106 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 06:59 AM
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FYI: Reading the raw "consumption figure" within the UL designation on the back of an amplifier or AVR and dividing it by the number of powered channels does not supply you with a true "per channel" output specification.

That figure within the UL rating is NOT the maximum wattage/power the device is capable of outputting.

I'm not sure who exactly began this wannabe clever ploy, but I'm growing a bit tired of seeing it plastered about as if it's based upon fact and automaticaslly negates puported and/or otherwisen PROVEN specificiations.

Crucially, none of this indicating the 4311 will produce 140 watts per 9 channels, either.

rant over.

James

Basically, my point in asking that question is to try to find out as logically as possible which may or may not be the better receiver in both quality and performance. I have read the manual specs of both receivers and basically see the Onkyo weighs 17lbs more (is it heavier duty parts or did they just add some extra rocks question) and consumes more juice also. And I agree the true test will be in the actual bench testing but since we don't have that yet, I'm here picking your brains here.

Darin, thank you very much for taking the time to write a detailed post. I appreciate taking the time to explain the possible reasons. I think my brain got a little bigger

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post #107 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 07:19 AM
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Whether that means Onkyo's amps are less efficient, or their DSPs consume more power

Yeah, it's called a Reon. To make matters worse, considering how much better today's BD players upscale compared to when the 875 was designed, it's pretty much useless.
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post #108 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 07:22 AM
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Ok. Based upon the "interesting" explanation on page 97-98 of the manual this unit appears to be similarly hamstrung to the new Yamaha Aventage series from an "amp assign" standpoin.

It appears that ten different options are listed and none (just like Yamaha) match what I'd like to do, which is: pre-out the traditional 7 channels and have the unit power the F's and W's.

The 11CH option simply let's me choose between pre-outting the F's or W's and the remaining 9 (options) are nowhere in the ballpark of what I want to do.

It appears the "pre-amp" mode is the only option for me and that's a shame as I didn't want to add (4) more channels of amplification.

That is of course unless the pre-outs are all "live" and I can simply pre-out the main 7 and just hook speakers up to the F's and W's (which actually does not seem to be the case under any of the options). But, if that IS the case, seeing that you cannot disable individual amp sections, what does this assign function really gain you, as you couls simply "pre-out" any of the 11 channels you wished and power the others though the speaker outputs.

Either I must be missing something soemwhere, or this unit does not possess the true "free-amp-assign" functionality of the 4810.

ugh.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #109 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok. Based upon the "interesting" explanation on page 97-98 of the manual this unit appears to be similarly hamstrung to the new Yamaha Aventage series from an "amp assign" standpoin.

It appears that ten different options are listed and none (just like Yamaha) match what I'd like to do, which is: pre-out the traditional 7 channels and have the unit power the F's and W's.

The 11CH option simply let's me choose between pre-outting the F's or W's and the remaining 9 are nowhere in the ballpark of what I want.

It appears the "pre-amp" mode is the only option for me and that's a shame as I didn't want to add (4) more channels of amplification.

That is of course unless the pre-outs are all "live" and I can simply pre-out the main 7 and just hook speaekers up to the F's and W's.

ugh.

James


I'm sure there's probably a lot of people that want the same thing. I don't believe these audio companies listen to their customers as well as some other businesses.
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post #110 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 07:30 AM
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Whether that means Onkyo's amps are less efficient, or their DSPs consume more power

Yeah, it's called a Reon. ...

I don't think it's JUST Reon. I also have a lower end Onkyo receiver in my kitchen - it doesn't have Reon, but it does have the low-end Audyssey (2 something or other), and it also runs pretty hot. The Denon has video processing too, maybe it consumes less power than the Reon chip (being newer, I would have to assume so, since newer often translates to die shrinking). These things often have multiple DSP chips, plus the amps, transformers, etc. Unless you're the manufacturer, it's hard to pinpoint exactly where all the power is going.

But I do want something that puts out less heat. When my system is on, that room gets warm, even after adding a second AC vent. The fact that the dog always liked to lay right in front of the electronics kind gave away where the heat was coming from.

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post #111 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 07:34 AM
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That is of course unless the pre-outs are all "live" and I can simply pre-out the main 7 and just hook speakers up to the F's and W's.

I've been ASSUMING that's the case (that's how it is in my current Onkyo). If not, then I'm even more screwed than I thought I was.

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post #112 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 08:05 AM
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This problem is so complicated that it's difficult to explain coherently...I'm on the phone with a Denon tech and he simply does not understand the issue. He thinks I'm asking if I can run an 11.X config, which of course is NOT in question.

Even if all of the pre-outs are "live" you still run into the problem of "telling" the 4311 what to "do". There seems to be no way around this. Because there are "only" 9 channels of amplifcation, you have to tell it how you want to power at least 2 of those remaining channels and there simply does not seem to be an option that affords for anything other than choosing to externally power the F's or H's while internally powering the balance of 9.

I just had the Denon tech tell me that when I choose the 11CH option that all 11 speaker binding posts are "live", which I of course told him is impossible as there's only 9 channels of amplification available.

I told him that, quite clearly to me, you must choose Fs or Hs as the internal amplifier will power the remaining (2), seeing it "thinks" it's powering the other 7 and only has two channels remaining.

UPDATE: The tech spoke with three other supervisors and they insist that when I select the 11CH option and then DO NOT select EITHER externally powering the Hs or the Ws that it will then ask me to disable another pair (fronts, surrounds, rears) of posts, which of course will be perfectly fine as I'm already externally amplifying them, and then the Fs and Ws will be internally powered with the traditional 7 externally powered through the pre's.

Good god, 45 minutes later I hope they're correct. I still have a sneaky suspicion though that the unit will force me to choose the W's or F's and we'll be right back where we started.

What a pain, if you could simply assign individual channels like the 4810 this would be a non-issue.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #113 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 08:12 AM
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Even if all of the pre-outs are "live" you still run into the problem of "telling" the 4311 what to "do". There seems to be no way around this. Because there are "only" 9 channels of amplifcation, you have to tell it how you want to power at least 2 of those remaining channels and there simply does not seem to be an option that affords for anything other than choosing to externally power the F's or H's while internally powering the balance of 9.

IF all the pre-outs are live (please please please please), then the only limitation in my eyes is you can't internally power BOTH the heights and wides. If you want both of those, you need an external amp for one of them. If all the pre-outs are live, then whether or not you use internal or external amps for all the other channels should just depend on what pre-outs you have connected to (other) external amps you may want to use.

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post #114 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 08:29 AM
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What video processor are they using in the 4311?

My 3808 is still humming along with my DVDO DUO processor.

I did notice that the new receivers have a 3 year warranty now. I had purchased a 4 year extended warranty on the 3808 I got from Best Buy. But of course I will probably never need it.

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post #115 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Darin View Post

IF all the pre-outs are live (please please please please), then the only limitation in my eyes is you can't internally power BOTH the heights and wides. If you want both of those, you need an external amp for one of them. If all the pre-outs are live, then whether or not you use internal or external amps for all the other channels should just depend on what pre-outs you have connected to (other) external amps you may want to use.

Well sure. Thing is, I yearned for this thing as I did not want to purchase another external amplifier and waste 7 channels sitting right inside the unit.

I do not design AVRs for a living, but I'd think taking the time to design/configure/implement these ten options had to be as laborious and complex as simply affording for a free amp assign, similar to the 4810.

I'm still hoping I'm wrong here.

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post #116 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

What video processor are they using in the 4311?

My 3808 is still humming along with my DVDO DUO processor.

I did notice that the new receivers have a 3 year warranty now. I had purchased a 4 year extended warranty on the 3808 I got from Best Buy. But of course I will probably never need it.

The ABT 2015 I believe, which is more than capable.

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post #117 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

things I noticed browsing the manual (no particular order):

- Commence the teeth-gnashing from James!

tee hee thanks for obliging!

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It appears that ten different options are listed and none (just like Yamaha) match what I'd like to do, which is: pre-out the traditional 7 channels and have the unit power the F's and W's.

No, but if you simply swapped the wides and surr.backs in your config, you could do it easily, letting the Denon power the heights and surr.backs. Why so wedded to the idea of the 7-ch amp powering the "traditional" 7 channels? I highly doubt the surr.back's require more power than the front wides!

Use the 7-ch amp to power front, center, surround, and wide.... then use the speaker posts on the Denon for height and surr.back.

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post #118 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Well sure. Thing is, I yearned for this thing as I did not want to purchase another external amplifier and waste 7 channels sitting right inside the unit.

Ah, I get it, you're in the same boat as me, but more severe. By the nature of my setup, I externally power the two rear channels, but since they can't (apparently) be re-assigned, those two amps in the 4311 will go wasted. In your case, 7 of the amps will go wasted: you can only make use of 2 of them, since none of the 7 channels that you externally power can (apparently) be re-assigned. Could you not choose to, for example, let the 4311 power some less critical speakers like either the rear pair or side pair, and then let your external amp that was assigned to those power the front wides? Seems to me that the front wides could be just as critical as the others I just mentioned, so putting a better amp on those wouldn't necessarily be a waste.

EDIT: I see batpig and I are on the same page.

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post #119 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I do not design AVRs for a living, but I'd think taking the time to design/configure/implement these ten options had to be as laborious and complex as simply affording for a free amp assign, similar to the 4810.

I think they may be reserving certain features for the higher-end models to not make the 4810 owner's feel totally obsolete The 4810 does have other features not on the 43xx, like component video out for Zone 2, Advanced AL24, etc.

I highly doubt it's a question of time/cost to implement, considering they already have implemented a true "free assign" on the 4810. Gotta reserve some things for the "flagship" model, perhaps the 4812ci?

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post #120 of 23364 Old 09-08-2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

tee hee thanks for obliging!



No, but if you simply swapped the wides and surr.backs in your config, you could do it easily, letting the Denon power the heights and surr.backs. Why so wedded to the idea of the 7-ch amp powering the "traditional" 7 channels? I highly doubt the surr.back's require more power than the front wides!

Use the 7-ch amp to power front, center, surround, and wide.... then use the speaker posts on the Denon for height and surr.back.

No, no, I hear ya (both, Darin). I just returned from lunch and I think I had considered what you were proposing earlier, I was just ranting about its "neuteredness", lol.

Again, if by selecting 11CH and then selecting NEITHER the F's or W's we then have the option of choosing another pair to disable, the point is moot. I simply do not trust that this is how it will work.

Further, even though I have plenty of (lowered-powered) external amplification for Z's 2 & 3, it would be nice for many I'm sure to be able to assign those unsed amps to power the 2 and 3 zones, respectively, but sigh. I agree with you that they shelve options for the upstream models.

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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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