The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 438 - AVS Forum
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post #13111 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by NetViper View Post

Using only for home theater. I am looking I guess for a cleaner and fuller sound with the emo driving the front.

You should be able to achieve this.

As for adding the XPA -3. I went into the menu, choose run "externals for fronts".

Then used the pre-outs of the L, C and R for the XPA -3. That's it. When you do the surround test tones, you will also be able to check if the speakers are hooked up properly.

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post #13112 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

You should be able to achieve this.

As for adding the XPA -3. I went into the menu, choose run "externals for fronts".

Then used the pre-outs of the L, C and R for the XPA -3. That's it. When you do the surround test tones, you will also be able to check if the speakers are hooked up properly.

So is this the set up you are running? Was it worth the money?
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post #13113 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by NetViper View Post

So is this the set up you are running? Was it worth the money?

Just setting it up, no opinions yet... just sold my SVS and I will be getting a Rythmic F15HP soon.

But I am enjoying my system. Cheers.

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post #13114 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 07:30 AM
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NetViper,

If I understand correctly, if running a full 11.1 setup you'll still need a 2ch amp to run either the Front Heights or Front Wides (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The internal amp can be assigned to one of these and the other needs an external amp. All other channels can run on the internal AVR's amps.

I am using the XPA3 as you're considering (and a 2ch Audiosource amp for the wides). It sounds great. I'll have to agree with others here that you may not hear the difference in using an external amp though - I can only tell when playing at reference levels, but below that (which is still loud as we mostly watch movies at -10db), you cannot tell the difference. I would suggest running the fronts through the AVR first to see if you need an amp in the first place. Our room (due to size/dimensions) is heavily treated which is why the an external amp did make a difference when running at reference.

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post #13115 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

NetViper,

If I understand correctly, if running a full 11.1 setup you'll still need a 2ch amp to run either the Front Heights or Front Wides (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The internal amp can be assigned to one of these and the other needs an external amp. All other channels can run on the internal AVR's amps.

I am using the XPA3 as you're considering (and a 2ch Audiosource amp for the wides). It sounds great. I'll have to agree with others here that you may not hear the difference in using an external amp though - I can only tell when playing at reference levels, but below that (which is still loud as we mostly watch movies at -10db), you cannot tell the difference. I would suggest running the fronts through the AVR first to see if you need an amp in the first place. Our room (due to size/dimensions) is heavily treated which is why the an external amp did make a difference when running at reference.

Well, the plan was the get the XPA-3 to run the FR/L and CC, and then use the Denon to run the other channels to get the 11.1. So instead of buying a small 2 channel to do the Front Heights (as I am doing the wides with the denon), I would have the denon do everything but FL/R and CC to get 11.1.

If I have to get an external amp anyway, I figured might as well get a good one and power the bigger speakers with it.

Does that work?
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post #13116 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 08:10 AM
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In 11.x setup can one use 3-channel external amp to power LCR and remaining 8-channels using internal AMP? So side surrounds, surround backs, front heights and front wides using internal amp?
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post #13117 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetViper View Post

Well, the plan was the get the XPA-3 to run the FR/L and CC, and then use the Denon to run the other channels to get the 11.1. So instead of buying a small 2 channel to do the Front Heights (as I am doing the wides with the denon), I would have the denon do everything but FL/R and CC to get 11.1.

If I have to get an external amp anyway, I figured might as well get a good one and power the bigger speakers with it.

Does that work?

That's exactly my queston.
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post #13118 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 08:35 AM
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^
As per my posts above, the answer is YES one can "use 3-channel external amp to power LCR and remaining 8-channels using internal AMP...So side surrounds, surround backs, front heights and front wides using internal amp." IMO the XPA3 is an excellent choice when expanding to 11 ch.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #13119 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 08:45 AM
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FWIW, I just moved my 4311 into my newly finished (almost) theater room. I was testing it with various external amps in the living room prewiring the (rollable) rack. Anyhow, I removed all the external amps except for the Mcintosh on the FL/R. I ran Audyssey in the theater last night and I can say the sound is improved, IMO. All subjective of course. Seems to have more punch now, although that is likely due to me finally having the room to add my second DIY sub. I am running 11.2, BTW and am still concerned about heat from the 4311. Will keep close tabs on it, seeing as how it's doing alot of the legwork now.


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post #13120 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 09:12 AM
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^More on selecting amps. Buying an extra amp to expand to 11 channels, it makes sense to get 2 or 3 decent quality amp channels. The clearance Emo UPA2s at $289 deliverd are a bargain. This is especially so if your system sounds good using the internal amps. IOW, you are not hearing a degradation in SQ as you crank it up which is indicative of clipping, as I've described above to NetViper. This would be a value choice especially if you have average, fairly easy to drive speakers and are not sitting far away. But if you are doubting the AVR's ability to manage to output clean SQ at higher volumes, the XPA2 is a good value. If you are pretty certain the internal amps aren't cutting it the XPA3 is a good value as well.

I got the Emo XPA5 on Holiday sale last year when I had a Denon AVR4310. That AVR was rated 6-16 ohms and really could not drive my 4 ohm, not very sensitive (88dB@1m) Dali speakers cleanly close to reference. I figured the Emo 5 ch amp was the best value for me. I recently got a refurb UPA2 so I could run 7.2 with my A100 in preamp mode (and would be free to change to dedicated separates if and when a pre/pro comes around that's better than the A100). The amp comparisons are not easy to do. I can say that with the A100, in 2.0 Stereo mode (speakers set on Full Range for test purposes), the XPA5 sounds a lot like the UPA2 and both sound, quite frankly, a lot like the internal amps. All are really quite good. I haven't done the full 7.2 comparisons of ext vs internal amps.

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post #13121 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 09:20 AM
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Wanted to reiterate that my subjective improvements were when I REMOVED external amps. However, as stated earlier, new purpose built room (w/modest treatment at the moment), dual subs and all my speakers (in this room) are horn loaded Klipschs....I think they are all 96-98 db efficiency or above. The La Scalas are like 108db, but driven by the Mac, so they don't count.

Front - La Scala
Wide - Forte II
High - SS-5
Back - SS-5
Sur - RS-3
C - THX LCR


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post #13122 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

I guess I am a bit confused here LOL!! I am getting a XPA-5 Thursday and want to run my fronts/wides/center of the XPA-5 and have the 4311 run the surrounds and heights. I figured I would just go in to the amp assign...go to Pre-amp mode but the manual states when in this mode the internal amplifiers of the unit are not used??? If it does that my surrounds/heights will not be powered? How do I accomplish what I want to do?? Can I just assign fronts/wides/center to pre-out and be done with it?? First external amp I have had..I know how to hook up the cables and all that....just not sure how to assign them in the AVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avsnoob10 View Post

In 11.x setup can one use 3-channel external amp to power LCR and remaining 8-channels using internal AMP? So side surrounds, surround backs, front heights and front wides using internal amp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetViper View Post

Well, the plan was the get the XPA-3 to run the FR/L and CC, and then use the Denon to run the other channels to get the 11.1. So instead of buying a small 2 channel to do the Front Heights (as I am doing the wides with the denon), I would have the denon do everything but FL/R and CC to get 11.1.

If I have to get an external amp anyway, I figured might as well get a good one and power the bigger speakers with it.

Does that work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by avsnoob10 View Post

That's exactly my queston.

SIGH......

- as we just covered two days ago, YES IT WILL WORK. You can have ANY combination of internal and external amps.

- the ONLY exception is that, because the receiver only has 9 amps built in, when you activate 11 channel mode, the receiver forces you to choose whether the FIRST TWO extra channels will be the heights or the front L/R mains.

- Beyond those first two channels, you can use internal or external amps for ANY channel. When you are in 11ch mode, ALL THE PREOUTS ARE HOT at all times. You don't have to assign anything or set anything beyond the selection for the first two externally amped channels, the preouts are ALL HOT.

- PREAMP MODE however disconnects the signal from ALL the amps, so you should ONLY use this mode if you are using ONLY external amps for all channels. You cannot "shut off" specific amps internally, so if you will be using any of the internal amps for the main zone, you cannot use PREAMP mode.

So you can pretty much do anything you want... you can power 5 speakers with external amps and 4 with internal... you can power 3 with external and 8 with internal.... you can power 2 with external and 9 with internal.... 9 with external and 2 with internal.... IT'S ALL GOOD. The ONLY thing you can't do is power 11 speakers internally...... because there are only 9 amps built in!

Also, most importantly, that Denon CSR guy was a MORON and totally wrong.


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Perhaps we need a new section in the batpig guide (how 'bout it, bp?).

Probably not, unless I expand the site with a detailed tips/tricks section. For one, it is such a highly specific topic (applicable only to the 4311ci) that it's probably better suited within the scope of this thread as opposed to batpigworld, which is more general.... second, more importantly, having that info on my site is unlikely to prevent people from asking repetitive questions, as we have found on many other Denon threads

perhaps it could be added to the beginning of this thread though....

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post #13123 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post

Set up my 4311 last night and beyond a doubt noticed the lack of punch\\bass compared to my 3008 after running audyssey. No stranger to Denon as I have another Denon set up.

there are many people who have reported that the 4311 set their subs 3-5dB too low and ended up raising their volume post-Audyssey. In the absence of measuring gear to really see what is happening, you can simply turn the volume of the subs channels up in the receiver if you want more bass. You are under no obligation to stick to exactly the settings that Auto Setup configured. The point of Audyssey is to establish "reference" baseline, but you can always tweak from that reference to suit your own preference.

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post #13124 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 09:50 AM
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There is an app for denon in the android market. It works, its nice.
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post #13125 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

to new users who are experiencing "non punchy bass/etc" after running xt32...

an investment in a measurement tool such as the omnimic kit from parts express may be a worthwhile expenditure...

this may (or may not) show that what was perceived as "punchy bass" was a peak that xt32 has eliminated...

i'll leave it at that...

This may not apply to me, but can you elaborate please? I have 2 different XT32 Receivers I tested in the EXACT same environment last night...

I have more testing to do tonight and I will re run Audyssey first to see what I come up with.

My issue is distance was perfect, but sound is really lacking dynamics, warmth, and essentially what I feel is the full range as in flat in areas. Music is flat and lacking significant clarity. Since this has been reported I am not sure that it is just the amp in general and people have gotten used to it or I have done some calibration incorrectly (hard to imagine but anything is possible).

Most speakers were configured around -6/-9db and both subs @ -7.5 and -7.0.
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post #13126 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

SIGH...perhaps it could be added to the beginning of this thread though....

DisTreSs PM'd.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #13127 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

I think people like ccotenj, myself, and others have been up and down, back and forth, with the high end AVR vs pre-pro/amp road more than once. To me, the additional cabling needed (with the inherent possibility of potential cable crosstalk, interference, etc problems that introduces), adding an amp needs to have a specific performance improvement goal.

I would like to emphasize this. I needed to add an external amp (EP4000) to do 11.2. Even though the amp itself had no noise, the RCA cable running from the receiver had to be very short and run carefully to eliminate the noise I orginally got with a very long, cheap RCA patch cable. Something to remember when adding an external amp with unbalanced outputs.

And by the way, I noticed no difference between the Denon amps and the 500wpc pro-amp. I'm in a small 1300cf room with 91db speakers and 80hz crossover, so I don't need much power, even when playing loud. I'm just of the opinion you can never have too much power, I like heavy AB amps, and I got a great deal.
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post #13128 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 04:54 PM
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Is it possible to use AirPlay to steam an iPod to zone 2 or zone 3 only? In other words, can AirPlay be a "source"?

Thanks
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post #13129 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Having also owned an Elite SC 05 (and an SC 27), and now a 4311, I think there's some confusion surrounding volume settings. Let's get that part out of the way first. There is no correlation between volume settings from one AVR to another. What might be reference setting on one AVR will not translate to the same SPL and setting on another brand.

Yes, except that after a system with Audyssey is calibrated, 0 dB on the AVR of any brand with Audyssey will be set to produce "reference level" in that system, as defined by Audyssey. So all AVR-with-Audyssey/speaker combinations should produce the same volume at 0 dB.

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post #13130 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post

My issue is distance was perfect, but sound is really lacking dynamics, warmth, and essentially what I feel is the full range as in flat in areas. Music is flat and lacking significant clarity.

Try changing the Audyssey curve in the receiver to Audyssey Flat and see if this helps with clarity. The regular Audyssey curve has a rolloff in the highs, but the Flat curve doesn't. In small or very damped-down rooms, Audyssey Flat may work better (it does for me -- 12' x 13' room with carpet and drapes).

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post #13131 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pcpapant View Post

Is it possible to use AirPlay to steam an iPod to zone 2 or zone 3 only? In other words, can AirPlay be a "source"?

Thanks

nope.

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post #13132 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


nope.

I suspected that is the case - will just get a dock then and will do the same thing.

Thank you for the prompt response.
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post #13133 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post

Set up my 4311 last night and beyond a doubt noticed the lack of punch\\bass compared to my 3008 after running audyssey. No stranger to Denon as I have another Denon set up. It is very weird, some tracks sound great on the Denon like movies although clearly missing the depth when on the exact same set up (9.2 KEF). I ran Audyssey just like I always do, in the same fashion and measurements were great. Sub were set at same volume my Onkyo Measured @ 75 db which maybe was at maybe the 9 o clock position. I am going to re run audyssey tonight. Maybe again with Onkyo MIC. Really bummed, sound isn't bad, something is missing. The bass is for sure not where it should be.

To my ears its seems like there is flat responses in some of the ranges. I tested quite a bit of material.

The scaler is better then I expected, improved over the 3008. What is everyone's favorite sound mode? DSX Heights I seemed to like.

FWIW, according to Chris Kyriakakis, the guy who runs the forums at Audyssey (and my guess is one of their engineers), has stated that the mics are specific to the receiver it's paired with, and that you will get inaccurate results if you use a mic and receiver from different units.
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post #13134 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post


This may not apply to me, but can you elaborate please? I have 2 different XT32 Receivers I tested in the EXACT same environment last night...

I have more testing to do tonight and I will re run Audyssey first to see what I come up with.

My issue is distance was perfect, but sound is really lacking dynamics, warmth, and essentially what I feel is the full range as in flat in areas. Music is flat and lacking significant clarity. Since this has been reported I am not sure that it is just the amp in general and people have gotten used to it or I have done some calibration incorrectly (hard to imagine but anything is possible).

Most speakers were configured around -6/-9db and both subs @ -7.5 and -7.0.

My experience on this:

Also felt bass was less-than-generous after several consumer XT32 calibrations on a 4311ci. Music sounded thin without manually adding 3-4dbs of subwoofer level after the fact.

Since upgrading to the Audyssey pro kit, I was amazed how much the subwoofer level-setting screen had me turn up the volume knobs on my subwoofers to meet the compliant range to proceed. Mind you, these were the same subs in the same locations in the same room whose volume knobs were previously set to the consumer xt32 compliant range just a few months prior. AFAIK these targets should be the same at 75db +/-3.

Now that I have a few weeks off work, I will formally measure the difference in db and share my findings with Audyssey if significant. It may be that pro puts out a weaker calibration signal than consumer?

Regardless, bass now sounds much more full and balanced with the rest of the audio spectrum without needing to deviate from the calculated trims as I had to previously.

Again, this is just my experience. I have seen graphs posted by other forum members showing no overall level difference whatsoever between pro and consumer calibrations in the bass region.
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post #13135 of 23578 Old 12-15-2011, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrandon View Post

FWIW, according to Chris Kyriakakis, the guy who runs the forums at Audyssey (and my guess is one of their engineers), has stated that the mics are specific to the receiver it's paired with, and that you will get inaccurate results if you use a mic and receiver from different units.

Chris isn't an engineer, FYI, he is the founder and CTO of Audyssey.
http://ee.usc.edu/faculty_staff/facu...kyriakakis.htm

While as a general rule you are correct, in this case the Denons and Onkyos have been using the same mic for about 3 years. The Onkyo ACM-1 mic is the same as the Denon DM-A409 although silver plastic casing instead of black...

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post #13136 of 23578 Old 12-16-2011, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

My experience on this:

Also felt bass was less-than-generous after several consumer XT32 calibrations on a 4311ci. Music sounded thin without manually adding 3-4dbs of subwoofer level after the fact.

Since upgrading to the Audyssey pro kit, I was amazed how much the subwoofer level-setting screen had me turn up the volume knobs on my subwoofers to meet the compliant range to proceed. Mind you, these were the same subs in the same locations in the same room whose volume knobs were previously set to the consumer xt32 compliant range just a few months prior. AFAIK these targets should be the same at 75db +/-3.

Now that I have a few weeks off work, I will formally measure the difference in db and share my findings with Audyssey if significant. It may be that pro puts out a weaker calibration signal than consumer?

Regardless, bass now sounds much more full and balanced with the rest of the audio spectrum without needing to deviate from the calculated trims as I had to previously.

Again, this is just my experience. I have seen graphs posted by other forum members showing no overall level difference whatsoever between pro and consumer calibrations in the bass region.

You're saying that the "consumer" XT32 calibration step that checks subwoofer levels before measurement is incorrect?
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post #13137 of 23578 Old 12-16-2011, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post

You're saying that the "consumer" XT32 calibration step that checks subwoofer levels before measurement is incorrect?

That was not my experience when I use the Pro kit after a "consumer" XT32 calibration - bass levels and calculations were very similar. It's possible one of the mics the OP used was inaccurate, or there were placement differences during the measurements.
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post #13138 of 23578 Old 12-16-2011, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post


You're saying that the "consumer" XT32 calibration step that checks subwoofer levels before measurement is incorrect?

No, I'm not saying that nor should anyone reading this jump to that conclusion based on the single experience I have shared.

I'm saying that the knobs on my subwoofers are easily a quarter turn higher after completing the subwoofer level check screen in pro vs consumer. I'm also saying that I prefer the resulting bass in pro over consumer in terms of level and balance with the rest of the spectrum. In my room with my gear, un-tweaked consumer sounded thin to me and pro has corrected that. Other than owning a 3312ci (which never sounded thin to me) for a month before upgrading, the 4311ci is my first foray into Audyssey, for what that's worth.

It's possible my MLP is right on the edge of a room mode and my mics weren't *precisely* in the same position, or it's possible pro uses a lower sub pre-out than consumer, it's possible pro does "normalization" differently than consumer, or that a quarter turn on my subwoofer volume knob only equals 0.5 db, or a host of other explanations. I just don't know.

I suppose if another member with a 4311ci and access to the pro kit can compare the volume knob position on their subwoofers between the pro vs consumer subwoofer level-setting screens, we could determine if my experience is an anomaly (which is probably the case--I'm far from an expert here) or if there's more to investigate.

I originally purchased the pro kit to help solve some issues I was having on the other end of the spectrum--overly boosted treble--which it has done quite nicely. (It turns out there's accuracy behind the claim that target curves for "average sized living rooms" and "large open floor plans" are different in terms of needed treble roll-off.) Imagine my surprise when the upgrade to pro not only fixed the treble in my very large room, but it also natively returned the bass back to a level that just seems "right" without needing to fiddle or override anything.
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post #13139 of 23578 Old 12-16-2011, 08:19 AM
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My Velo subs have digital vol controls and there was no diff in settings from XT32 to XT32 Pro with the A100.

To my ears, Pro "Doesn't make your XT32 SQ, it makes your XT32 SQ better". Everything that XT32 does better than XT in a fairly big step up, Pro takes it just another, slightly smaller, step further in my room. The bass is tighter yet full and has more punch/dynamics. What's cool is that the integration with the satellites is so seemless, the effect is as though it's the instruments themselves arrayed on the soundstage (toms, kick drum, bass, etc) that sound punchier and more realistic. I'm lovin it.

BTW Sara K.'s "Hell Or High Water " is a stockfisch SACD that has really extraordinary SQ. It really shows off the superb integration of the surround bubble; when she plays the harmonics on her 4 string guitar they're mixed so they "appear" 3 dimensionally in specific spots throughtout the room, even moreso than the similar bell-like effects on Beck's renowned "Sea Change" DVDA. Another great disc is Sara K. "Water Falls", a stockfisch CD that has SQ as good as many SACDs. OK, I'm an AudysseyXT32/Pro/Sara K. fan.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #13140 of 23578 Old 12-16-2011, 09:16 AM
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Who is Sara K.?

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