The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:07 AM
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I'm a bit confused by all the worry, discussion about using or not using some or all of the internal channels. With this unit you have but one power supply. This means to me, that if you use only, say 5 channels, you should get better dynamic range and better RMS with the channels you do choose to utilize.

Currently I have a 4810 and believe me, the "Free Assign" feature is far beyond cool. If I get the 4311 or AVR A100, I will miss free assign but since I will use 4 of the internal channels to power Heights and Rear Surrounds the internal amps need to be fired up and consuming power. Other than having a GUI based "Amp Off by channel" button, there isn't much practical use here. You still have one power supply, the amps still need to be on.

The debate about amp/receiver heat is well explained by Darin. I would not expect the new 4311 to be super cool running though. My reasoning is that Denon clearly is putting in some new amp technology that handles more difficult to drive speakers. To do this, Denon must be putting an amp in capable of higher current output. In general, higher current translates to more heat, or at least more heat at times. Onkyo's have been called out as being a touch more high current capable than most Denon's and have also had somewhat beefier power supplies. This adds weight to the Onkyo's...... But weight does not simply translate to quality. If weight was our design goal; manufactures would just add lead. If I want to totally shut down the amps, I need 3 more external powered channels. That's a lot of external power and more than my rack can take.

Finally, I'm not sure why anyone would want to power all 7 main channels with the 4311 first. One problem the new Denon's have is that they have limiters that trigger when a multiple channel load is demanding high power output simultaneously. Not a huge real world problem for movies as really demanding action movies throw tons of content at your amp unevenly across all speakers. Also, as noted Heights rrand Rear Surrounds don't get near as much content. So, why not offload the critical fronts to a high current, high power external amplifier? Denon internal amplification is OK but, IMHO, not all that powerful, dynamic, or effortless. Again, let the Denon do the easy stuff and just spring for a single externals amp for the fronts.
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post #122 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:21 AM
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^ I'm probably responsible for 95% of that "worry", Seattle. Well ok, 98% of it.

I was a bit upset at first that it seemed I would not be able to enjoy a config that would allow me to use my existing 7 channel amp and the 4311 without purchasing another amplifier. Of course now those fears are relieved with a sensible work-around (I WAS blindly JUST considering internally powering the H's and W's and that won't work, but, say powering the H's and SB's WILL).

Again, the ability to use the internal amps for other zones would be nice, but hardly a deal-breaker. I undoubtedly ask more out of these units than at least 99%, lol.

And last, I think the vast majority of those like me WILL use the external amps for the "main" channels in an 11 channel config. As BP and Darin pointed out, it will likely be BENEFICIAL for me to actually power the Wides externally and leave the 4311's internals for the rear surrounds and H's.

James

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post #123 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:25 AM
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Looking closely at the manual, I believe the below statements (by batpig/mastermaybe/Darin) are incorrect:

- following up on this, when in "11.2" mode, you can select whether to use an external amp for front wide or front height.


The 11CH option simply let's me choose between pre-outting the F's or W's and the remaining 9 (options) are nowhere in the ballpark of what I want to do.

then the only limitation in my eyes is you can't internally power BOTH the heights and wides. If you want both of those, you need an external amp for one of them.

Page 64 of the manual (page 67 of the .pdf file), Step 6, states the PRE-OUT options (to be connected via an external amplifier) are Height and Front. More specifically, the channels are listed as FHL/FHR' and FL/FR'. The Wide channels' are FWL/FWR (page 122 (125 of .pdf file)) and are not listed/mentioned in Step 6.

This means you can internally power both heights and wides, while using an external amplifier for your fronts (FL/FR). Having said that, most people (myself included) will probably use the external amplifier to add the Height channels (FHR/FHL) while letting the 4311CI power the other 9 channels (including the Fronts).

Tom
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post #124 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

So, why not offload the critical fronts to a high current, high power external amplifier? Denon internal amplification is OK but, IMHO, not all that powerful, dynamic, or effortless. Again, let the Denon do the easy stuff and just spring for a single externals amp for the fronts.

But therein lies the rub, based on the manual, it doesn't appear that you could then re-assign those amps to let the 4311 handle both the front heights and wides. I certainly here you on the benefits of offloading power from the 4311, but some of have limits to how many extra components we can physically fit in our setups. A little more flexibility in amp assign could help, but as batpig points out, I guess they gotta save some of the good stuff for more expensive units.

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post #125 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

Looking closely at the manual, I believe the below statements (by batpig/mastermaybe/Darin) are incorrect:

“- following up on this, when in "11.2" mode, you can select whether to use an external amp for front wide or front height.”


“The 11CH option simply let's me choose between pre-outting the F's or W's and the remaining 9 (options) are nowhere in the ballpark of what I want to do.”

“then the only limitation in my eyes is you can't internally power BOTH the heights and wides. If you want both of those, you need an external amp for one of them.”

Page 64 of the manual (page 67 of the .pdf file), Step 6, states the PRE-OUT options (to be connected via an external amplifier) are Height and Front. More specifically, the channels are listed as ‘FHL/FHR’ and ‘FL/FR’. The ‘Wide channels’ are FWL/FWR (page 122 (125 of .pdf file)) and are not listed/mentioned in Step 6.

This means you can internally power both heights and wides, while using an external amplifier for your fronts (FL/FR). Having said that, most people (myself included) will probably use the external amplifier to add the Height channels (FHR/FHL) while letting the 4311CI power the other 9 channels (including the Fronts).

Tom

Actually, I believe the first TWO examples you listed ARE correct within the context of which they were included (not sure if the first was mine, but the second was, ).

They both mean essentially the same thing: that, if you select 11CH from the amp assign area, the next step in the process is choosing whether or not you want to internally amplify the F's or W's. This is very clear in step 2 under "if you select the 11CH config".

As for the third, NO, you cannot power both the F's and W's if you keep lock-step with the manual, but there is of course a way to mitigate that.

James

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post #126 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

Looking closely at the manual, I believe the below statements (by batpig/mastermaybe/Darin) are incorrect:

This means you can internally power both heights and wides, while using an external amplifier for your fronts (FL/FR). Having said that, most people (myself included) will probably use the external amplifier to add the Height channels (FHR/FHL) while letting the 4311CI power the other 9 channels (including the Fronts).

Tom

Holy crap Tom, you are correct! I totally mis-read that, but it clearly states you can choose height or FRONT for pre-amping when in 11ch mode.

So it looks like the default 11-ch setup is using an external amp for heights, with the 9 internal amps powering everything else. This would probably be the "cheaper" route as you don't need a beefy amp for the height speakers.

The alternate option is to change the setting to FRONT and use a big, beefy amp for your Front L/R speakers.

Obviously, you can still use external amps for any other channels you wish, as the pre-outs will still be active.


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As for the third, NO, you cannot power both the H's and W's if you keep lock-step with the manual

actually, it looks like Tom is right and we were wrong! The selection is "FRONT" or "WIDE". If you select "FRONT" then the other 9.2 channels (including H+W) will be powered internally.

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post #127 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

But therein lies the rub, based on the manual, it doesn't appear that you could then re-assign those amps to let the 4311 handle both the front heights and wides. I certainly here you on the benefits of offloading power from the 4311, but some of have limits to how many extra components we can physically fit in our setups. A little more flexibility in amp assign could help, but as batpig points out, I guess they gotta save some of the good stuff for more expensive units.

Darin is correct and that IS the fly in the ointment. You cannot simply elect to pre-out any channel you wish and then re-configure its amplifier counterpart however you choose.

Setting up the 11CH route yields some flexibility though, as you can choose to internally power any (2) of the F's, SS's, or SB's and power the F's or H's with an external amplifier.

James

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post #128 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

But therein lies the rub, based on the manual, it doesn't appear that you could then re-assign those amps to let the 4311 handle both the front heights and wides. I certainly here you on the benefits of offloading power from the 4311, but some of have limits to how many extra components we can physically fit in our setups. A little more flexibility in amp assign could help, but as batpig points out, I guess they gotta save some of the good stuff for more expensive units.

Darin, I'd offload the heights and as you have done so, rather uniquely, the Rear Surrounds. I am moving away from the 4810 as it has died 4 times on me. NIC issues. Anyway, Wides get quite the workout in my system and heights and rear surrounds are far less demanding. It would be nice to power all 7 potential fronts with the same amp but in my extensive use, you really won't notice any difference.

Totally subjective here but Wides make a big positive difference, Heights are more nicely additive; a far smaller enhancement. I am also using very high quality in ceiling B&w ccM816's that match closely my 805 Wides and the little ceilings just don't get as much content.
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post #129 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:56 AM
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You are not required to choose between H's or W's when selecting the '11CH' set-up. Take a look at page 94 of the manual (page 97 of the .pdf file), under 'Ext. Amp settings', it makes it clear that they are 2 'modes' for the 11.2 set-up (via an external amp):

1) 11.2ch (9.2 + Height (PRE OUT))
2) 11.2ch (9.2 + Front (PRE OUT))

The second mode allows you to internally power both H's and W's (i.e. not choose between them), while powering your Fronts (FL/FR) via an external amp.

Tom
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post #130 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 11:58 AM
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No problem batpig, just trying to help.

Tom
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post #131 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:03 PM
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Tom is 100% right I read the manual wrong the first time!

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post #132 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:04 PM
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Well, I'm a knob for saying "heights" as I've been typing "F" meaning front and "H" meaning Height all along.

A bit sematical though, the point is that you have to choose between the two. Althought this WAS exactly what I was looking for!

James

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post #133 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

This means you can internally power both heights and wides, while using an external amplifier for your fronts (FL/FR).

Yes, you're right... I could have sworn when I looked at it yesterday the choices for external amp assign were heights or wides. My interest was in assigning the rears to an external amp, so perhaps I focused more on the fact that the rears couldn't, and got the fronts and front wides confused.

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post #134 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:07 PM
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Regardless, I think we have finally solved the riddle.

thanks Tom for your clarification.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #135 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Tom is 100% right I read the manual wrong the first time!

Could we all have read it wrong, or did they correct the manual since yesterday?

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post #136 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Yes, you're right... I could have sworn when I looked at it yesterday the choices for external amp assign were heights or wides. My interest was in assigning the rears to an external amp, so perhaps I focused more on the fact that the rears couldn't, and got the fronts and front wides confused.

Crazily enough, ditto. Especially considering Tom's observation was EXACTLY what I was looking for.

The fact that BP "read" it wrong too makes it all the more suspicious.

Hey where's the "suspicious" smiley, lol? I'm going with sarcastic!

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #137 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:16 PM
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I only saw the manual today, so the 'overnight fix' theory is possible :-).......I don't know why in the world they didn't give people 100% flexibility with these PRE-OUT channels (next version? :-().........
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post #138 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Could we all have read it wrong, or did they correct the manual since yesterday?

well, I downloaded the manual to my local drive right after it was available, so your post-hoc explanation for our collective ineptitude has been voided


Quote:


The fact that BP "read" it wrong too makes it all the more suspicious.

I think what happened was I mis-read it wrong initially, and then you guys internalized what I had said causing a bit of unconscious, selective blindness. Until Tom slapped us with reality and forced us all to re-read it again, this time with the "assumption" part of our brain turned off and our eyes actually open!

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post #139 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:36 PM
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OR you could have been a thick like me who typed one thing and then mentioned another!

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #140 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:45 PM
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Do you guys think there is a specific reason Denon 'selected' these 2 options (Heights and Fronts) for an external amp? I'm sure some people would want to externally amplify their Fronts (with a high-end stereo amp), but why did they (Denon) select the Heights over the Wides or Rears (or both)? Is it random? :-) Or are these supposed to be the most important (Fronts) and least important (Heights) channels according to Denon? Audyssey claims the Rears are the least important. Maybe it's because the Rears have a dedicated 'track' on some blu-rays/dvds (i.e. 6.1/7.1 soundtracks). Just wondering if there is some sort of rationale behind this.

Tom
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post #141 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:49 PM
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On page 2 of the manual it states a feature of the 4311 is "Fully Discrete, identical quality and power for all 9 channels (170 W x 9ch)". Therefore I am sure there are other *errors* in there.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #142 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

Do you guys think there is a specific reason Denon 'selected' these 2 options (Heights and Fronts) for an external amp?

My guess is that they figured folks are going to use a high-end amp (for fronts) or a low-end amp (for Heights).

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #143 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

On page 2 of the manual it states a feature of the 4311 is "Fully Discrete, identical quality and power for all 9 channels (170 W x 9ch)". Therefore I am sure there are other *errors* in there.

Actually that's just the 6-ohm spec, they just "chose" that number for marketing reasons if you look at some of the advertising for their models this year they choose the 6-ohm spec as well.

Quote:


My guess is that they figured folks are going to use a high-end amp (for fronts) or a low-end amp (for Heights).

I think that is correct in terms of rationale. The rationale for heights vs. surr.backs I would assume is that (as Tom speculated) the surr.backs are part of the "traditional" 7.1 speakers, whereas the heights/wides are newer "extra" speakers.

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post #144 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:00 PM
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The biggest question remaining in my mind is whether or not the pre-outs are live for all the channels, despite which internal amps may be used. If I choose 11 channel mode (as opposed to pre-amp mode), and choose to externally power the front heights, will the rear pre-outs still be active even though the rear amps will also be (unavoidably) active? In my Onkyo, the pre-outs are always on, so you can externally amp any channel you wish (even if you can't re-assign the internal amp). In the new Yamahas, I don't think this is the case. Maybe I'll have to go trolling through the 3311 thread and see how it behaves.

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post #145 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:04 PM
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You know who I really feel for?

"First-timers" who walk into this thread and have to digest the last 50 posts of maddening dialogue that likely won't apply to 95+% who own the AVR, lol!

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #146 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

The biggest question remaining in my mind is whether or not the pre-outs are live for all the channels, despite which internal amps may be used. If I choose 11 channel mode (as opposed to pre-amp mode), and choose to externally power the front heights, will the rear pre-outs still be active even though the rear amps will also be (unavoidably) active? In my Onkyo, the pre-outs are always on, so you can externally amp any channel you wish (even if you can't re-assign the internal amp). In the new Yamahas, I don't think this is the case. Maybe I'll have to go trolling through the 3311 thread and see how it behaves.

According to the Denon tech I spoke with, yes. However, this tech (and supposedly his supervisors) also said "all 11 amplifier channels would be active" when you select the 11CH amp conifg, so go figure.

James

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post #147 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:09 PM
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I don't see any reason to think that all the pre-outs will not be active in "11ch" mode.

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post #148 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:12 PM
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^ Ditto. The tech who was getting frustrated with me coyly said (after announcing that they should all be active): "now you can run another 7 speakers off the "pre-outted" channels if you wanted.

Smart-ass. This was the same guy who couldn't understand that it would be impossible to run all 11 speakers off the 4311 alone in the 11CH mode.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #149 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

According to the Denon tech I spoke with, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't see any reason to think that all the pre-outs will not be active in "11ch" mode.

Thanks. That's re-assuring. This post in the 3311 thread has me a bit concerned:
Quote:


The pre-outs and matching speaker posts cannot both be used at the same time ...

Though perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, since he was answering someone with different goals than I.

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post #150 of 23775 Old 09-08-2010, 01:34 PM
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but what do you think the chances are that when using AirPlay you could trigger an external amp to turn on? Today it's a two step process, turn on zone 2 and start playing via iTunes. It'd be great if simply starting to play the music over AirPlay could turn on zone2 and then turn off when the music stopped (say after 5 mins of dead time). It's minor but today it's quite normal for me to forget to turn off zone 2 and my external amp just keeps running. It's left on overnight more times than not.
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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