The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 546 - AVS Forum
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post #16351 of 23505 Old 04-04-2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

That's why I responded to your original post with your recommendation to keep the speakers pointed at the MLP. My Audyssey post-calibration graphs clearly aren't increasing the gain to any of my speakers by anywhere near the max that Audyssey will go. Speakers vary a lot in their off-axis dispersion properties.

The standard Audyssey recommendation is FR/L toed-in aimed at MLP, with the exception of following speaker OEM suggestions if they specifically contradict that. This has to do both with imaging and smooth HF response. For ex., my Dalis have a "tweeter assembly" combo of dome and ribbon. They recommend no toe-in unless one exceeds the distance to MLP from the recommended one, which is placement of MLP as one point of an equilateral triangle with the FR/L. Can't say I've ever seen or heard of a toe-out configuration though, except for wheel alignment.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16352 of 23505 Old 04-04-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

The standard Audyssey recommendation is FR/L toed-in aimed at MLP, with the exception of following speaker OEM suggestions if they specifically contradict that.

Who wrote this recommendation--I hadn't seen it before.

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post #16353 of 23505 Old 04-04-2012, 08:52 PM
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Guys,

I'm planing to get a dedicated cd player(probably Cambridge Audio with Dual Wolfson WM8740 24-bit DACs) and will connect it to my Denon 4311 through RCA(analog inputs).

If I will select "pure audio" mode will there be analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog conversion in the Denon 4311 or will the analog signal be untouched and will just be amplified by the Denon 4311?

Also is the Dual Wolfson WM8740 24-bit DACs better than the built in DAC in our Denon 4311?

Thanks a lot!!!
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post #16354 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Louie_18 View Post

Guys,

I'm planing to get a dedicated cd player(probably Cambridge Audio with Dual Wolfson WM8740 24-bit DACs) and will connect it to my Denon 4311 through RCA(analog inputs).

If I will select "pure audio" mode will there be analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog conversion in the Denon 4311 or will the analog signal be untouched and will just be amplified by the Denon 4311?

I am not an audio expert (yet), but I would be very surprised if Denon would convert to digital (and then back again to analog) the analog input signal from your CD player. Why would they do that?
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post #16355 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie_18 View Post

If I will select "pure audio" mode will there be analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog conversion in the Denon 4311 or will the analog signal be untouched and will just be amplified by the Denon 4311?

Also is the Dual Wolfson WM8740 24-bit DACs better than the built in DAC in our Denon 4311?

Thanks a lot!!!

Regardless of whether you select DIRECT or PURE DIRECT, the signal will remain analog. However, most would agree that you'll be better served not using one of these modes as you will not be able to apply Audyssey, which will usually provide for better audio fidelity.

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post #16356 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Who wrote this recommendation--I hadn't seen it before.

Chris (Audyssey) has mentioned it several times in the Audyssey thread, to include ...

"Our recommendation is to follow the manufacturer's specification. Most speakers are designed for on axis listening and so should be toed in, but it's best to check with the speaker maker on how they intended their speakers to be pointed."

and this ....

"The most likely reason for boosting the high frequencies is that the mic is not at the same height as the tweeters, or that measurements were taken too far to the left and right. Tweeters are not omnidirectional and in fact they start to roll off as you go off axis (vertically and horizontally). Some are better than others and larger tweeters suffer from this problem more than smaller ones. Toeing in the speakers helps with the horizontal problem and trying to get the tweeters to ear height helps with the vertical problem."

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post #16357 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Regardless of whether you select DIRECT or PURE DIRECT, the signal will remain analog. However, most would agree that you'll be better served not using one of these modes as you will not be able to apply Audyssey, which will usually provide for better audio fidelity.

You mean to say that in Direct and Pure Direct the analog signal that I will feed the Denon 4311 will be untouched?

I prefer this in 2-channel audio listening because I do not want too much processing.
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post #16358 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 02:37 AM
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^^
Correct, other than amplification.

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post #16359 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Correct, other than amplification.

Ok bro, thanks a lot
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post #16360 of 23505 Old 04-05-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

I using my 4311 with an ATI 5670 and had no hand-shake issues whatsoever - I'm bitstreaming HD via both a modded XBMC and via Jriver MC17

Could you share what version of Catalyst Control Center or driver you are using with success? Do you have any "exclusivity mode" boxes "checked" in audio/advanced properties?

Thanks
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post #16361 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 02:33 AM
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Does anyone have any experiences using the 4311 phono input? I was thinking about getting a seperate phono preamp plugged into a line input. I won't recieve my turntable for another 3 weeks so I can't a/b the different inputs.

TIA
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post #16362 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post

The issue that I am having right now is the dc trigger output does not seem to work on the 4311, I measured it with a multimeter and it looks like the voltage difference was always 0 whether it was on or off. On the marantz, it was 12 when on and 0 when off. I set every option to on in the trigger 1 / 2 settings. Anything I could be missing?

I'm using the 12v trigger from the 4311 to Bryston amps. I turned-on the trigger for MAIN ZONE with all other trigger settings to OFF.

I'm using a mono jack.
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post #16363 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmh4353 View Post

Does anyone have any experiences using the 4311 phono input? I was thinking about getting a seperate phono preamp plugged into a line input. I won't recieve my turntable for another 3 weeks so I can't a/b the different inputs.

TIA

It's actually pretty decent. Try it out first before you purchase an outboard phono preamp and see if you're happy with it.

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post #16364 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post

The issue that I am having right now is the dc trigger output does not seem to work on the 4311, I measured it with a multimeter and it looks like the voltage difference was always 0 whether it was on or off. On the marantz, it was 12 when on and 0 when off. I set every option to on in the trigger 1 / 2 settings. Anything I could be missing?

Have you resolved this issue yet? If not, try saving your config and validate it's a good one. Then try resetting the microprocessor. If this fixes it, you'll have to rerun Audyssey and reconfigure your other settings. If not, reload your saved config. I have no other ideas for now. This fixed it for me though.

In my case, I was playing around with some settings that caused the 12V triggers to stop working. Not sure what it was so I did a microprocessor reset and it started working again. After I reloaded the saved config the trigger stopped working again so I know it's was due to a hosed config. Reset the microprocessor again and reran Audyssey then reconfigured the settings again manually left the trigger in a working state.
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post #16365 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranksAVR View Post

Could you share what version of Catalyst Control Center or driver you are using with success? Do you have any "exclusivity mode" boxes "checked" in audio/advanced properties?

Thanks

I have a ati 5570 in my HTPC which has not experienced any hdmi issues running various drivers with both a 4310 & 4311 with a denon 602 VP in the chain or just the HTPC direct to the 4311 with a Samsung pb63b plasma display. Currently on 12.1 drivers, no 602 VP and allow exclusive control always checked. Unfortunately hdmi protocols are so problematic you could be using the exact same setup and have the issues you currently have. The custom Edid helped many with these issues and is worth a try.

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post #16366 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by akiravf View Post

Hi, the denon 4311 It's capable of letting you play SACDs through it's HDMI port in native DSD

thanks for the reply I have a question:

There are limitations on HDMI compared to the DENON LINK?
192kHz/24-bit playing over HDMI?
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post #16367 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 10:36 AM
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No I haven't got it to work yet. I am waiting on a replacement monday. I tried a microprocess reset and it still didn't work. Now the save config function does not even work. A replacement it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Have you resolved this issue yet? If not, try saving your config and validate it's a good one. Then try resetting the microprocessor. If this fixes it, you'll have to rerun Audyssey and reconfigure your other settings. If not, reload your saved config. I have no other ideas for now. This fixed it for me though.

In my case, I was playing around with some settings that caused the 12V triggers to stop working. Not sure what it was so I did a microprocessor reset and it started working again. After I reloaded the saved config the trigger stopped working again so I know it's was due to a hosed config. Reset the microprocessor again and reran Audyssey then reconfigured the settings again manually left the trigger in a working state.

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post #16368 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by akiravf View Post

...There are limitations on HDMI compared to the DENON LINK? 192kHz/24-bit playing over HDMI?

I don't have time to answer in detail today (I love tax time, don't you?) but IMO you need not be concerned about "limitations on HDMI". With an Oppo BDP83SE I bitstreamed everything possible to the A100 including DSD and BluRay, and it sounded and looked great. To my ear, SACD sent DSD bitstream sounded better but with all other sources, bitstream vs PCM sounded the same, both exc (PCM gets "AL24 processing plus" in the AVR).

As to DenonLink, I will say that comparing the Denon DBPA100 via DenonLink3 (CAT5) to the Oppo (HDMI), the SQ of music from RBCD, SACD and DVDA is improved over DenonLink. I don't believe that has to do with Hz/-bit differences but is purportedly due to reduced jitter.

As an additional note, IME BluRay sent via DenonLink4 looks and sounds exactly the same as regular HDMI from the Oppo. The way DenonLink4 works is that all BluRay content stays in HDMI but additional clocking info is sent over the DenonLink cable.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16369 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 12:09 PM
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Just got the 4311 today from our own AV Science store. Shipment was fast....and nice packing to boot! It is replacing my Pioneer Elite 91 which was giving me head aches carting it to Authorized Pioneer Service Centers to get the firmware updated for the DTS Bomb. I vowed my next receiver would update itself via the internet....hence the 4311.

I spent the day hooking it up and added wide speakers. So now I have a 9.2 system with buttkickers in my HT theater seats. What a difference! Mike from AV Science was right.... all I needed to do was Auto calibrate the speakers and that made a huge difference to the way my speakers were calibrated using Pioneers method. All in All, it took me about 4 hours to rehook my components and fiddle with the menus. Only problem is that now I have to rewatch a bunch of my DTS Master Audio movies to see what I missed! Just a shout out to the AV Science store and Mike for helping me with this purchase and now all can return to their normal activity on this thread which was also instrumental in helping me pick out this receiver and set it up! (Kudos to Batpig)
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post #16370 of 23505 Old 04-06-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BFI6603 View Post

Just got the 4311 today from our own AV Science store. Shipment was fast....and nice packing to boot! It is replacing my Pioneer Elite 91 which was giving me head aches carting it to Authorized Pioneer Service Centers to get the firmware updated for the DTS Bomb. I vowed my next receiver would update itself via the internet....hence the 4311.

I spent the day hooking it up and added wide speakers. So now I have a 9.2 system with buttkickers in my HT theater seats. What a difference! Mike from AV Science was right.... all I needed to do was Auto calibrate the speakers and that made a huge difference to the way my speakers were calibrated using Pioneers method. All in All, it took me about 4 hours to rehook my components and fiddle with the menus. Only problem is that now I have to rewatch a bunch of my DTS Master Audio movies to see what I missed! Just a shout out to the AV Science store and Mike for helping me with this purchase and now all can return to their normal activity on this thread which was also instrumental in helping me pick out this receiver and set it up! (Kudos to Batpig)

Congratulations on being liberated from the limits of MCACC and Pioneer's support approach. You'll find there's a lot of ex-Pio Elite users here (I flipped my SC-57 and bought a 4311 myself from AV Science a few months ago). Welcome...

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post #16371 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I don't have time to answer in detail today (I love tax time, don't you?) but IMO you need not be concerned about "limitations on HDMI". With an Oppo BDP83SE I bitstreamed everything possible to the A100 including DSD and BluRay, and it sounded and looked great. To my ear, SACD sent DSD bitstream sounded better but with all other sources, bitstream vs PCM sounded the same, both exc (PCM gets "AL24 processing plus" in the AVR).

As to DenonLink, I will say that comparing the Denon DBPA100 via DenonLink3 (CAT5) to the Oppo (HDMI), the SQ of music from RBCD, SACD and DVDA is improved over DenonLink. I don't believe that has to do with Hz/-bit differences but is purportedly due to reduced jitter.

As an additional note, IME BluRay sent via DenonLink4 looks and sounds exactly the same as regular HDMI from the Oppo. The way DenonLink4 works is that all BluRay content stays in HDMI but additional clocking info is sent over the DenonLink cable.

thanks for the explanation, I recently purchased this receiver and wanted to buy a blue ray player that also plays SACDs
I like the Denon DBP-2012UDCI as you seem?
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post #16372 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by akiravf View Post

thanks for the explanation, I recently purchased this receiver and wanted to buy a blue ray player that also plays SACDs
I like the Denon DBP-2012UDCI as you seem?

Sorry, checking the specs on the Denon site, it appears that player is not DenonLink. This does not surprise me as Denon only puts this capability in their top players and processors. I think the DBP4010 is the least expensive current model, and it's pricey with MSRP $2K. And few Denon owners who have a DenonLink AVR actually own a DenonLink player. There are a few like me that have good speakers and listen critically to music who report it improves SQ but most folks don't give it a thought.

You can get as good BluRay and very nearly as good music SQ with the Oppo BDP93 (for $500), with really exc. product support. It depends on your specific needs but I believe there are a few other big-name universal player models like Sony that are even less$ and about as good. If you for sure want DenonLink for music, you don't really need DL4 (DL4 is for BluRay and doesn't enhance anything IME) so consider picking up a used Denon DVD/universal DL3 player like a 3930. Combine it with a separate inexpensive/ decent BluRay player of your choice. AFAIK when using any decent BluRay player as a transport (reading the disc and sending bitstream), it's hard to tell one from another.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16373 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 04:07 AM
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Most of the Sony bluray players will play SACD over HDMI. Much cheaper than an Oppo.

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The Denon DBP-2012UDCI is a good player has 5 PCM 1795 32bit DAC (onkyo 5009)
work very well , but only in analog (7.1 channel output)
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post #16375 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 06:26 AM
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^aki, I pay no attention whatsoever to the DACs in a player. I use the player strictly as a transport. I spend my $ where it matters most to me: a great processor with exc RC DSP, good speakers, 2 good subs. The rest goes to software: well-recorded good quality music (lots of it HiRes MC) and films.

There's no way I'm giving up XT32/Pro, so there's no point in going thru all that analog rigamarole with 6 analog cables etc. I use 1 CAT5 (DenonLink) and 1 HDMI.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^aki, I pay no attention whatsoever to the DACs in a player. I use the player strictly as a transport. I spend my $ where it matters most to me: a great processor with exc RC DSP, good speakers, 2 good subs. The rest goes to software: well-recorded good quality music (lots of it HiRes MC) and films.

There's no way I'm giving up XT32/Pro, so there's no point in going thru all that analog rigamarole with 6 analog cables etc. I use 1 CAT5 (DenonLink) and 1 HDMI.

I think you're right about everything, thanks
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post #16377 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^aki, I pay no attention whatsoever to the DACs in a player. I use the player strictly as a transport. I spend my $ where it matters most to me: a great processor with exc RC DSP, good speakers, 2 good subs. The rest goes to software: well-recorded good quality music (lots of it HiRes MC) and films.

There's no way I'm giving up XT32/Pro, so there's no point in going thru all that analog rigamarole with 6 analog cables etc. I use 1 CAT5 (DenonLink) and 1 HDMI.

I do enjoy my Denon 5900 via Denon link going into my 4311! I also have my Denon 3910 via DL into my 4308 as well. Wonderful thing Denon Link.

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post #16378 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akiravf View Post

I think you're right about everything, thanks

Been waiting to hear that all my life! Oh, wait, you're not my wife.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16379 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Regardless of whether you select DIRECT or PURE DIRECT, the signal will remain analog. However, most would agree that you'll be better served not using one of these modes as you will not be able to apply Audyssey, which will usually provide for better audio fidelity.

Curious: My Pioneer applies room correction in Direct, not in Pure Direct. Obviously it converts the analog signal for (at least) the former.

How do the 4311's Direct and Pure Direct modes differ?

Sorry for the idiot question... - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16380 of 23505 Old 04-07-2012, 08:17 AM
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^ Don, there is a lot of good basic info like that in the batpig guide, see the Audio part of the FAQ and scroll down a few questions. I think the bottom line is Denon Pure Direct also cuts all video processing. As Direct modes cut Audyssey out, they're basically useless in my book.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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