The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DisTreSs View Post

Thx but don't quote me on that yet
I'm talking strictly EU release here, US traditionally gets stuff sooner so get to drooling again

On top of that, I found a german site which mentioned (article written 23/08/2010 so prior to the IFA show) a 2500€ and october release for the A100, not the 4311.
http://www.player.de/2010/08/23/deno...imkino-gerate/

This to me would seem to be much more likely and probably means the 4311 will be substantially cheaper than the 2500€ mentioned by the french article for the 4311. This doesn't change anything with regards to the release date though: it could be that Denon launches the 4311 along with the A100 in october, waits to release it after it has flogged a decent amount of A100's or releases it prior to releasing the A100
Anything goes at this point I suppose.

Hmmm sorry to keep on about this, but what I just read could be a pretty important tidbit if it turns out to be true.
Here is another french site that elaborates further on the 2500€ pricepoint for the 4311...
http://www.hdfever.fr/2010/09/09/denon-avr-4311/
They claim it would retail for the SAME (!!) price as the A100....

If this is true, then it would seem that Denon is effectively giving you a little 100year present by providing you with some shiny stuff for no added cost.
At the same time, I think 2500€ is pretty steep for the 4311 so I would be backing off...
2500€ even barely justifies the A100 in my book.
Guess I'll have no choice but to wait (again...) until they start to lower prices on the 4311 but that probably won't be until their next product line
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post #182 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

things I noticed browsing the manual (no particular order):



- Dolby Volume is there (pg 91) but when you turn it on, it automatically turns MultEQ XT 32 off! So, you cannot combine the eq filters of Audyssey with the volume leveling of Dolby Volume.


Is this also true of the Onkyo 3008/5008?

No Dolby Volume while Audyssey MultEQ XT 32 is running?
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post #183 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DisTreSs View Post

Hmmm sorry to keep on about this, but what I just read could be a pretty important tidbit if it turns out to be true.
Here is another french site that elaborates further on the 2500 pricepoint for the 4311...
http://www.hdfever.fr/2010/09/09/denon-avr-4311/
They claim it would retail for the SAME (!!) price as the A100....

If this is true, then it would seem that Denon is effectively giving you a little 100year present by providing you with some shiny stuff for no added cost.
At the same time, I think 2500 is pretty steep for the 4311 so I would be backing off...
2500 even barely justifies the A100 in my book.
Guess I'll have no choice but to wait (again...) until they start to lower prices on the 4311 but that probably won't be until their next product line

Gotta love those protectionist policies....When is Philips going to actually take advantage and start producing quality stuff again? It's been decades.
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post #184 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 09:07 AM
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I have to tell ya that I've never understood the fascination with these "volume equalizing" processes. None of them are terribly worthwhile in the first place IMO, and, oddly enough, I don't seem to get blasted by commercials (with them off) nearly as badly as I used to, for whatever reason. Everyone's mileage varies, I suppose.

As for the 4311's release, let's hope it's not significantly delayed by this XT32 nightmare Onkyo/Integra's going through right now.

Fingers crossed that it's an Onkyo-implementation issue and will be a non-issue for Denon models. gulp.

James

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post #185 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I have to tell ya that I've never understood the fascination with these "volume equalizing" processes. None of them are terribly worthwhile in the first place IMO, and, oddly enough, I don't seem to get blasted by commercials (with them off) nearly as badly as I used to, for whatever reason.

they are incredibly worthwhile if you don't have a living situation which allows for "full" dynamic range. The "loud commercials" syndrome is oft-cited but is not really the main use of these volume leveling processes. As you note, this problem is already getting better on its own, anyway, as broadcasters are finally improving (probably enough complaints from customers!)

but if you live in an apartment, or the kids/wife are sleeping, and you are doing the late night "volume creep" where you keep inching it up to hear the dialog, and then have to make a panicked lunge for the remote when the explosions start before someone starts yelling at you..... this technology is invaluable

Before Dynamic Volume (and I assume now Dolby Volume, based on the reviews) the only option you had in these situations was some horrible compression scheme like DRC or "Night Mode" which just squished all the dynamics out of everything, making it sound flat and lifeless. But Dyn Vol doesn't do this, it is very impressive in maintaining dynamics / sound quality while mitigating huge swings in volume.

obviously, it's not like Dynamic EQ where it improves the sound quality at all times. It's a "use as needed" technology... but for those of us who DO need it, it's a huge boon!

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post #186 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 09:32 AM
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please clarify how my scenario is different from pg 59 of the manual

page 59 illustrates the Denon "2-ch" mode, which allows for you to have a full multichannel speaker setup and then have a SEPARATE pair of "B" front speakers which you switch to for dedicated 2-ch listening. They are NOT "wide" speakers, they are an alternate pair of FRONT speakers.

Denon chose to illustrate them right next to the "A" front speakers, but they are absolutely not the "wide" speakers in a DSX setup, they could just as easily be in another room. Notice how they are labeled FL / FL' and FR / FR' in the diagram.

The point of this feature is to allow you to easily alternate between two different speaker setups, one multichannel, one 2-channel. For example, somebody might have a sub / sat 7.1 speaker setup in the living room, but they still have a big pair of old tower speakers that they love for 2-ch music in the den. This mode allows you to switch between your two setups (multich versus the separate 2-ch rig) automatically depending on the surround mode.

However, it requires that you devote one set of the "beyond 5.1" speaker terminals (height, wide, or surr.back) to the "alternate" front speakers, meaning you max out at 9.x for your multichannel setup.

In order to run an 11.x setup, you set AMP ASSIGN to "11ch", but this is mutually exclusive with the configuration on pg 59. Switching from "11ch" mode to a situation where the "wide" speakers are playing 2-ch stereo would require you delving deep into the menus and reconfiguring your amp assign / speaker settings every time you wanted to switch.

So, if you were willing to run a 9-ch setup, and sacrifice one of the surr.back / height / wide speakers, then you could do as you intend. But it still would not be "toggling" the wide speakers with FL/FR for stereo. The two dedicated "2-ch" speakers would be silent during any multichannel use, and would only activate (with all the other speakers going silent) when you switch to "STEREO / DIRECT" mode for 2-ch listening.

Does that make more sense?


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Originally Posted by jbpaul View Post

the floor speakers would be movable enough that it would work from where she listens

I'm not sure if you literally mean you will physically move the speakers when your wife wants to listen to 2-ch, but, ideally, you don't want to be moving speakers around once they are configured / calibrated. The Audyssey MultEQ corrects for your room acoustics and moving speakers while change that equation.

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post #187 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

they are incredibly worthwhile if you don't have a living situation which allows for "full" dynamic range. The "loud commercials" syndrome is oft-cited but is not really the main use of these volume leveling processes. As you note, this problem is already getting better on its own, anyway, as broadcasters are finally improving (probably enough complaints from customers!)

but if you live in an apartment, or the kids/wife are sleeping, and you are doing the late night "volume creep" where you keep inching it up to hear the dialog, and then have to make a panicked lunge for the remote when the explosions start before someone starts yelling at you..... this technology is invaluable

Before Dynamic Volume (and I assume now Dolby Volume, based on the reviews) the only option you had in these situations was some horrible compression scheme like DRC or "Night Mode" which just squished all the dynamics out of everything, making it sound flat and lifeless. But Dyn Vol doesn't do this, it is very impressive in maintaining dynamics / sound quality while mitigating huge swings in volume.

obviously, it's not like Dynamic EQ where it improves the sound quality at all times. It's a "use as needed" technology... but for those of us who DO need it, it's a huge boon!

While your explanation reads like an ad for Audyssey or Dolby volume I haven't found them to be nearly THAT game-changing, although I also do not think them completey meritless either, so I'm sure there's a middle ground between viewpoints.

To be sure, we DO agree though that those who do enjoy it (Dyn Vol) being forced to "lose" XT32 when it is implemented is a raw deal.

Perhaps an issue that can be addresssed through a f-ware update down the road?

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #188 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 09:57 AM
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To be sure, we DO agree though, that those who do enjoy them being forced to "lose" XT32 when it is implemented is a raw deal.

well, it's not "them", it's only "it", Dolby Volume. Obviously, Audyssey Dynamic Volume doesn't force you to "lose" XT32!!

I'm still hoping that it is a typo in the manual and they are referring to the fact that you can't use Dynamic EQ / Vol when using Dolby Volume (which would make sense as they are redundant), and that you still keep the MultEQ correction filters.

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post #189 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:15 AM
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I meant "IT", twice. Apparently I got it right in the second half of the sentence. Well, we'll find out soon enough I suppose. Your explanation makes snese, I haven't read exactly how it's worded, that would give a better idea as to whether it's likely a typo or a specific criteria that someone took the time to include. It's Denon though, so it's prolly 50/50, lol.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #190 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:31 AM
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Now I am leaning toward Anthem MRX 500
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post #191 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:46 AM
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^ Outside of their proprietary room correction (which may be superior to Audyssey), may I ask why? To me it seems terrifically "understaffed" connectivity-wise and under-featured at the price point...although I know less-features and technology somehow infers "superior sound" to some (see NAD slurpers) .

God bless ya if you can "survive" on 4 HDMIs. Seems to me a cable box, blu-ray player, video game sys, and media player already push it to the max for many users.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #192 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

As an avid user of zones two and three, the best I can suggest is: grab a Harmony remote (or you can probably set a 2-3 step activity on the master Denon remote) and set up a macro activity to turn it (zone 2) on and select the airtunes input (if it's available to be output in zone 2 which I think it should). And 2, use an amp that "wakes up" upon receiving and "sleeps" (upon not receiving) a signal at the analog inputs.

Not sure of any other way, and I seriously doubt merely using Airtunes in any fashion can do it.

James

Nah, that won't work for me. Thx for the suggestion though. I have two Harmony remotes but those are for the TV and peripherals. I use iPhones/iPads for controlling iTunes via the remote app. The new Denon iPhone app looks good and a 2 step process isn't going to kill me.

But if these things would hurry up and ship I'd be able to test it all out and see if there's an elegant way to do what I want
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post #193 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Outside of their proprietary room correction (which may be superior to Audyssey), may I ask why? To me it seems terrifically "understaffed" connectivity-wise and under-featured at the price point...although I know less-features and technology somehow infers "superior sound" to some (see NAD slurpers) .

God bless ya if you can "survive" on 4 HDMIs. Seems to me a cable box, blu-ray player, video game sys, and media player already push it to the max for many users.

James

I had the Denon 4310, and I am wandering how much of a step up the 4311 will be in SQ. I use my AVR to two things movies and music. I want those two things with any issues. For HDMI Oppo and LCD
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post #194 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:55 AM
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^ To be honest, I thought your current methodology was pretty decent, imo. At the very least, incoporating an amplifier that worked the way I described would relieve you of your (sometimes) 28 hour listening sessions.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #195 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I had the Denon 4310, and I am wandering how much of a step up the 4311 will be in SQ.

Well, if you're wAndering, don't let me bother you. J/K

It sounds like you'll be using the internal amplifiers, so that's prolly going to be a wait-and-see affair, but my experience with Denon AVRs, coupled with the addition of XT 32 (properly working of course) would lead me to believe at least the possibility for an UPtick in SQ, not a degradation. But I realize physical WEIGHT many times fools people ear's so...

We shall soon see, I suppose.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #196 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Well, if you're wAndering, don't let me bother you. J/K

It sounds like you'll be using the internal amplifiers, so that's prolly going to be a wait-and-see affair, but my experience with Denon AVRs, coupled with the addition of XT 32 (properly working of course) would lead me to believe at least the possibility for an UPtick in SQ, not a degradation. But I realize physical WEIGHT many times fools people ear's so...

We shall soon see, I suppose.

James

B&K AMP 200wpc
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post #197 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:08 AM
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just found this on the hometheatershack.com site. I don't know how true it is as it's the first time I saw a price connected with the A-100
Hello,
As part of Denon's celebration of its 100th Anniversary, they have released a Lineup of Limited Edition Components. They are all priced at $2,499 and will only be available at select Denon Dealers.

Here is the link to the AVR:http://www.denon100.com/#/en/products/receiver
Very comprehensive Feature Set including Audyssey MultEQ XT 32, HDMI 1.4, 9 Channels of Amplification rated at 140 Watts, "a unique Block Condenser", Cast Iron Footing, Upgraded Binding Posts, and more.

Given the weight is under 40 Pounds, I am somewhat spurious that it will come anywhere close to offering 140 Watts to 9 Channels, but it does look like a very nice AVR.

In other Denon News, the AVR-4311 is going to offer a Preamp Mode where the Internal Amplifiers are shut off.
This is an awesome feature for those of us who use outboard Amplification for all Channels, but use an AVR.
Cheers,
JJ

Read more: Denon AVR-A100 100th Anniversary AVR - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com Link:http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rsary-avr.html
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post #198 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:14 AM
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Can anyone explain what is the true benefit of being able to shut off the amps? With an infinite load, they aren't drawing too much current.
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post #199 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

B&K AMP 200wpc

Wow. So with internal amplification taken out of the equation (at least mostly, it appears) what do you suppose could/will be the difference-maker from a SQ standpoint?

My first inclination as to your questioning the Denon's SQ in comparison to the Anthem was perhaps the more stout amplifier section of the Anthem, but now you have really piqued my interest, as I'd imagine the pre-amp output stages and DAC's to be all but indistinguishable at this price-level, especially if you plan to use the 4311 in pre-amp mode.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #200 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:21 AM
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Three reasons:
- idle current, because the amps are of the class A/B type and are always loaded even if the speakers are disconnected
- heat dissipation because of this idle current
- power supply load
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post #201 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Wow. you have really piqued my interest, as I'd imagine the pre-amp output stages and DAC's to be all but indistinguishable at this price-level, especially if you plan to use the 4311 in pre-amp mode.

James

I guess that we/I will have to wait and see.

Brian
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post #202 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

Can anyone explain what is the true benefit of being able to shut off the amps? With an infinite load, they aren't drawing too much current.

The sonic benefits are arguable at best, IMO. Theories (even relevant ones, lol) abound as to why (it sounds (or should sound) better), but whether they (sound quality increases) are actually PERCEPTIBLE in the real world is, as always of course, the key.

In this case though, it will be easy enough to compare, as the pre-outs are "live" and many of us with externally amplified systems can easily switch back and forth between pre-amp and "non" pre-amp modes to see if we can discern an audible difference. Dollars to donuts sez we cannot, blindly, but I'm sure a % will rail against such an assertion.

You can bet that I have such an opportunity with my array, and I will be experimenting.

From another aspect, you could make the argument that you're extending the life of the amplifer sections AND conserving energy, but, ha ha, if you were REALLY about conserving energy, you would prolly not be hooking it up to a more POWERFUL, and in some cases, MULTIPLE external amplifiers, lol.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #203 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 12:58 PM
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Dynamic volume is one of my now "must have" features. With kids and watching a show late at night, it is something I just can't live without. So, I am a plus 100 (not 1) on Batpigs comment.
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post #204 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

The sonic benefits are arguable at best, IMO. Theories (even relevant ones, lol) abound as to why (it sounds (or should sound) better), but whether they (sound quality increases) are actually PERCEPTIBLE in the real world is, as always of course, the key.

In this case though, it will be easy enough to compare, as the pre-outs are "live" and many of us with externally amplified systems can easily switch back and forth between pre-amp and "non" pre-amp modes to see if we can discern an audible difference. Dollars to donuts sez we cannot, blindly, but I'm sure a % will rail against such an assertion.

You can bet that I have such an opportunity with my array, and I will be experimenting.

From another aspect, you could make the argument that you're extending the life of the amplifer sections AND conserving energy, but, ha ha, if you were REALLY about conserving energy, you would prolly not be hooking it up to a more POWERFUL, and in some cases, MULTIPLE external amplifiers, lol.

James

My two cents - You may hear the difference when one or more factors are in play:

You have all other parts of the audio chain at the very highest levels (Krell amps and Wilson speakers etc.)

You listening postion is perfectly placed in the sweet spot

The mental perception of "knowing that the sound is following the cleanest signal path possible from playback source all the way to your ears. Don't forget to have the granite weights on top of your speakers and CD player - not to mention the sorbathane feet on all the equipment and all 10-gauge wire to the speakers. For me the mental perception is a curse that I live with - even though I can only sometimes hear the difference between various changes to the system. This IS a strange hobby!
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post #205 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kee68 View Post


Given the weight is under 40 Pounds, I am somewhat spurious that it will come anywhere close to offering 140 Watts to 9 Channels, but it does look like a very nice AVR.


I'm very interested in a professional review of the 4311 with actual measurements of the unit's performance.

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post #206 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 01:52 PM
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I expect everyone reading this thread is.


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post #207 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Dynamic volume is one of my now "must have" features. With kids and watching a show late at night, it is something I just can't live without. So, I am a plus 100 (not 1) on Batpigs comment.

Totally. Sure, I prefer reference when I can get it, but my neighbors are much, much happier now that I use dynamic volume at night (Willy Mays, RIP, is probably a little bummed). That feature has spared me from so much trouble...

-Noob

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post #208 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 03:06 PM
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You can rest assured it will not output 140w's a channel with all channels driven. 80-100 is prolly much more realistic. Less than a 3db difference in output anyway.

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post #209 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 03:16 PM
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Anybody see this article? Not sure where the info came from on the firmware update to support airplay:

http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/09/09/...lay-this-fall/

**Edit looks like they got it from Engadget: http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/09/d...-this-fall-th/
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post #210 of 23567 Old 09-09-2010, 03:18 PM
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well, we do have a frame of reference in bench tests of the 4310 and 4810 (from HTMag):

AVR 4310 (rated at 130W/ch) into 8-ohms:

2ch driven = 155 W/ch
5ch driven = 114 W/ch
7ch driven = 105 W/ch

AVR 4810 (rated at 140 W/ch) into 8-ohm:

2ch driven = 168 W/ch
5ch driven = 124 W/ch
7ch driven = 31 W/ch (current limiter kicks in)

This is consistent with other higher-end Denon models. Since the 4311 is the same as the 4810 in having 9 channels, one would assume it also has some sort of current limiter (same as the high-end Onkyo models too). It is pretty safe to assume that it will exceed its rating with only 2-ch driven, and be good for near its rated power with 5+ channels driven, until the current limiter kicks in.

Sound & Vision found the same thing with the 4810:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...n-avr-4810ci-1

They have a slightly different methodology and rated the 4810 at 132 W/ch with 5ch driven and 60W/ch when the current limiter kicked in.

Quote:


I've long come to expect superb technical performance from Denon receivers, and that's what we got from the AVR-4810CI. Power was amply above spec, up to and including 5 channels driven (Denon's specs, like many today, only explicitly mention a maximum of 2 channels driven at once); 7 and 8-channel tests ran into deliberate limiting triggered by more than a second or two of clipping-level drive, which is neither uncommon nor particularly meaningful. Better still, virtually every low-power noise and distortion test was an all-time best, including PCM-stereo signal-to-noise that was bang on the theoretically perfect value (-75.7 dBw) for our dithered-noise test environment (the only meaningful way to express S/N for a digital-audio device), and similarly perfect excess-noise and linearity results.

I wouldn't expect anything different with the 4311, especially considering the weight gain to 38lbs.

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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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