The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

Given the weight is under 40 Pounds, I am somewhat spurious that it will come anywhere close to offering 140 Watts to 9 Channels, but it does look like a very nice AVR.

kee68,

Is there a direct correlation between the weight of a component and performance? (lol) Also, why wouldn't the 4311CI be able to do what it has been spec'd to do regardless of its weight. Last, is 40 pounds the magic number for the weight perfromance ratio? If so, my Marantz SR7002 is really offended.


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post #212 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

You can rest assured it will not output 140w's a channel with all channels driven. 80-100 is prolly much more realistic. Less than a 3db difference in output anyway.

James

80 to 100 would be very optimistic. Although it probably could do it, Denon has limited output on the 4810 to only around 50 to 60 Watts RMS with just 7 channels driven. You can look at some 4810 reviews for confirmation. For all the 4311 strengths, if you intend to really play at reference with anything close to difficult to drive speakers you should consider offloading the fronts and center to a beefier amp. You could buy the 4311 first and see if it plays to your liking and only upgrade the power if disappointed. IMHO 9 channels is a lot for this receiver to give it's all to.
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post #213 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 03:25 PM
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Batpig, dang it if you are not blazing fast.
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post #214 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

You can rest assured it will not output 140w's a channel with all channels driven. 80-100 is prolly much more realistic. Less than a 3db difference in output anyway.

James

Unless you're using "Multi CH Stereo", I don't see all channels being pushed extremely hard all at the time. Especially the rear surround and height channels.

I have never had a problem with my 3808, but of course it's only 7.1.

If I ever feel like the 4311 is lacking in power, can't I just add an external amp to drive the fronts and somehow turn off the front amps only thus giving more power to the rest of the amps?

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #215 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 03:38 PM
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yes, you are free to externally amp any channels you want, but no, you cannot "turn off" individual amps. They will still be "on" although of course they won't be drawing any current, so there will be more power available for the other channels.

the bottom line is this: the 4311 will have plenty of power for most people. If your speakers / room / listening habits are such that it doesn't have enough juice to power your setup properly, the different between bench-testing at 104w/ch or 127w/ch is 100% irrelevant, either way you will want an external amp.

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post #216 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:13 PM
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Yes, exactly. 50, 60, 70, or 100 watts per channel is virtually inconsequential to begin with...specifically, 1-3dbs in output.

This was my point. And as mentioned, you can bet real world content will rarely demand such an equality of power to 5 channels, nevermind 7 or 9.

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post #217 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:18 PM
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Well no, you cannot turn off individual amps, but that doesn't mean externally powering previously internally powered channels won't free up a significant amount of current for those remaining.

It'd be akin to running with a wheelbarrow filled with 9 bowling balls and then unloading 2-5...you can be assured you'll run faster.

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post #218 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:18 PM
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I think what some of us are doing is just trying to make sure if we spend $1500-2000, we get what we pay for. So the natural thing is to try to find some clues that may or may not be true. To me, 10 watts per channel difference isn't important as you won't be able to hear the difference. What does make the difference is the quality.

I sure we all don't want to buy a receiver and find out it crapped out because the power supply was too small or cheap. So some of us try to make "educated" guesses such as it's weight or how much wall juice it uses as indicators of quality components.

That being said, I do enjoy the reading this thread and the answers many of you give to the questions some of us novice audio hobbyists have.

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post #219 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Yes, exactly. 50, 60, 70, or 100 watts per channel is virtually inconsequential to begin with...specifically, 1-3dbs in output.

This was my point. And as mentioned, you can bet real world content will rarely demand such an equality of power to 5 channels, nevermind 7 or 9.

James

True that..........
And besides the Subwoofer will be doing the HEAVY LIFTING for those really intense/demanding scenes.
So for me, investing in a Big, Bad Subwoofer makes way more sense than worrying about the few db gain you'll get buying a Big, Bad amp......

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post #220 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

well, we do have a frame of reference in bench tests of the 4310 and 4810 (from HTMag):

AVR 4310 (rated at 130W/ch) into 8-ohms:

2ch driven = 155 W/ch
5ch driven = 114 W/ch
7ch driven = 105 W/ch

AVR 4810 (rated at 140 W/ch) into 8-ohm:

2ch driven = 168 W/ch
5ch driven = 124 W/ch
7ch driven = 31 W/ch (current limiter kicks in)

This is consistent with other higher-end Denon models. Since the 4311 is the same as the 4810 in having 9 channels, one would assume it also has some sort of current limiter (same as the high-end Onkyo models too). It is pretty safe to assume that it will exceed its rating with only 2-ch driven, and be good for near its rated power with 5+ channels driven, until the current limiter kicks in.

Except for the fact that the 4810 (and maybe the 4310, not sure) appears to have a bigger power supply, based on the power consumption numbers. I would expect the two channel performance to be similar, but once you get to driving 5 channels simultaneously, I would expect to see the 4311 fall slightly behind. Though that probably wouldn't be discernible with real material.

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post #221 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:


Though that probably wouldn't be discernible with real material.

which is the whole point.

look at it this way -- if your speakers are so tough to drive that you can't reach the volume / dynamics you desire with the 4311, then the extra 10 watts of the 4810 ain't gonna mean squat. There is no situation in which the 4311 would be wholly insufficient, whereas the 4810 would be fine.

if you need more than what the receiver can give, you don't need a marginally better receiver, you need external amps.

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post #222 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 04:59 PM
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Yes, I agree completely. "All channels driven" tests are basically just power supply tests, and I'm simply pointing out that the 4311 appears to have a smaller one, so they should scale slightly differently in such a test. Real material rarely drives them all that hard, at the same time. Particularly considering that almost all content above 5 channels is derived anyway (though that's starting to change).

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post #223 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 05:06 PM
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The Denon will, for most people, have more than enough power. But......... I know for a fact my 4810 does not have the capacity to play at reference my system near as well as hooking it up to my external amps. Yes, 10, 20, or 30 watts doesn't mean bupkiss. Having head room for my center and front towers capable of playing Avatar battle scenes at reference is a different story. Solid external amps make these scenes sound dynamic and effortless. Not achievable with just the 4810. Recognize my fronts can throw over 10000 watts RMS in to 4 ohm speakers so I should be able to tell a difference. I also know power is logarithmic so something less than, say 200 Watts RMS is just not ascertainable in volume and sound charachteristics.

I must clarify though a) my mains are a bit more challenging to drive. 2). Some of my speakers are not very efficient. 3).I do sometimes play music and movies at very high volume. 4) I am a bit power crazy and live happily in the "I want it" category as opposed to the "You need it" camp. All I'm saying is the main cheap out on modern receivers is the amp section. The receiver works fine for most people but there is legitimate design compromise here.

Regardless, just buy the 4311 first and if necessary hit the web for a great used amp or buy some inexpensive external amp. You will get more power per channel from the 4311 if you just run say 5 internals and get a 7 channel external or whatever amp configuration you want at some later time. Heck, Emotiva usually has a decent holiday sale.

I'll reiterate though so I don't get slammed. I'm a little amp power overkill and somewhat crazed by nature... so my statement is not some super bashing of the not even out yet 4311.
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post #224 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 06:18 PM
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I'm wondering why they haven't published the current rating for 4311. I think higher the current rating the better the amp and headroom.

I would like to kick-off Denon AVR comparisions matrix so that we can maintain this sort of information.

If someone can fill the remaining info and add columns, it would be great.

AVR Rated( in Watts) Channels Front Bi Amp/Bi Wiring Capability Surround A + B Option Front Wide Front Height Room Correction Features Speaker Impedance Distortion(%) Performance Benchmark results Pre Amp Out Power(Current Rating) AL24 Mode Official Speaker Driving Capability Thx Logo Power Supply Weight
2/Ch 5/Ch 7/Ch
4806 140 w 7.1 Yes, Surr back or Front Bi Amp Yes NA NA MultEQ XT Only 8 ohms 0.1 182 NA NA 8-ch out 10.6 A AL24+ 3.2 ohms Ultra2 Toroidal + 5 Independent Power Supplies 52 lbs
0.06 NA NA 114
3808 130w 7.1 Yes, Surr back or Front Bi Amp Yes NA NA MultEQ XT + Dynamic EQ/VOL 8 ohms 0.1 186.7 118.9 113.5 8-ch out 7.2 A AL24+ Large Stable Power Transformer w/ 6 Independent Power Supplies 39 lbs
1 210.9 138 130.7
4 ohms 0.1 238.9 NA NA
1 277.3 NA NA
4308 140w 7.1 Yes, Surr back or Front Bi Amp Yes NA NA MultEQ XT + Dynamic EQ/VOL 8 ohms 0.1 198.6 144.8 124.5 8-ch out 8.1 A Advanced AL24 6 Ohms NA Large Stable Power Transformer w/ 6 Independent Power Supplies 41 lbs
1 218.9 173.6 150.3
0.05 NA NA 116.4
0.002 165 NA NA
4 ohms 0.1 298 NA NA
1 343.4 NA NA
5308 150w 7.1 Yes, Simultaneously with Surr Back Channels when Biwired Yes NA NA MultEQ XT + Dynamic EQ/VOL 8 ohms 0.1 207 146.1 141.2 8-ch out 11 A Advanced AL24 3.2 ohms Ultra2 1 Main Toroid + 4 EI Type Sub Transformers with 8 independent Power Supplies 62 lbs
1 235.5 184.6 169.3
0.05 NA NA 133.2
4 ohms 0.1 279.4 NA NA
1 339.2 NA NA
4310 130w 7.1 MultEQ XT + DSX + Dynamic EQ/VOL 8-ch out 8.1 A AL24+ 34 lbs
4810 140w 9.3 MultEQ XT + DSX + Dynamic EQ/VOL 9.5 A Advanced AL24 42 lbs
4311 140w 9.2 MultEQ XT 32 + DSX + Dynamic EQ/VOL + Dolby Volume AL24+ 38 lbs
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post #225 of 23296 Old 09-09-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Not sure where the info came from on the firmware update to support airplay

They quote Engadget but presumably the original source got it from Denon (it's on the Denon 4311 product page).
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post #226 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

well, it's not "them", it's only "it", Dolby Volume. Obviously, Audyssey Dynamic Volume doesn't force you to "lose" XT32!!

I'm still hoping that it is a typo in the manual and they are referring to the fact that you can't use Dynamic EQ / Vol when using Dolby Volume (which would make sense as they are redundant), and that you still keep the MultEQ correction filters.


I too hope it is a typo because I would love to have XT32+Dolby Volume, not one or the other......please keep us updated on this if you can
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post #227 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 07:52 AM
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You certainly would not want Dolby Volume and Audyssey Dynamic Volume running at the same time....so one or the other sounds right. However Multeq XT32 should be completely independent. If they implemented any other way, it would be crazy.

Frankly IMO Dolby Volume doesn't work all that well and you won't be missing much if it doesn't work with the Audyssey stuff.
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post #228 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 09:27 AM
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^ Look out, I got stoned "virtual-style" earlier when I mentioned the same about Aud's Dyn Vol (which BTW I find virtually indistinguishable from Dolbys version).

J/K gang, to each, hiw own.
James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #229 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

I too hope it is a typo because I would love to have XT32+Dolby Volume, not one or the other......please keep us updated on this if you can

Apparently it's not a typo. Both Chris (Audyssey) and Jeff Talmage (DenonJeff) have confirmed that ALL Audyssey functions must be off to enable Dolby Volume ....

Chris Kyriakakis, Sep 10 09:49 am (PDT):
Since Dolby Volume comes after any correction that MultEQ provides we can't know what effect that will have on our filters. For that reason we require that all Audyssey functions are turned off.

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post #230 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:07 AM
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Does that mean the same is true for the Onkyos w/ Dolby Volume?

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post #231 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:09 AM
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I would imagine, yes as Chris is saying "Audyssey" so I doubt it's platform dependent.

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post #232 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:14 AM
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I don't understand that. I could see the concern (and requirement) during the initial testing/calibration stage. But if Dolby Volume is downstream of the correction, how could that affect the filters during playback? Sounds to me more like Audyssey trying to unpopularize Dolby Volume. Because who's going to disable their room correction just to use Dolby Volume, when Audyssey's own Dynamic Volume is likely sitting right there as an alternative?

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post #233 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:15 AM
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^ me thoughts exactly. We can put a man on the moon, but this is irreconcilable?

You can already hear the explanation: "well, Dolby V doesn't know/recognize/work with the filters/variables instituted by MultEQ XT and therefore, blah blah blah."

EDIT: Ha, I guess we already received said explanation a few posts above, lol.

Actually, I think you could very much anticipate what Dolby V would do to the "corrections"/filters. Very probably, adjust them (either within it or after the fact) to make them more closely resemble what Dolby/Dyn Vol are trying to do in the first place. If you don't like the result, turn it off. Story over.

Are we really reaching a point where companies are jockeying for/demanding EXCLUSIVE usage time on components where more than one technology exists to benefit the user?

gulp.

(james places the welcome mat out for the quasi-apologists who will immediately attempt to refute the above)

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post #234 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:21 AM
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The Owner's manual says "When Dolby Volume is set to ON, MultEQ XT 32 is automatically set to OFF". The first one of you to get the 4311 will have to check to see if MultEQ XT 32 can be turned back ON again manually.

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post #235 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:35 AM
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^ yep, I'll bet it can...while conveniently terminating Dolby V, lol.

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post #236 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ yep, I'll bet it can...while conveniently terminating Dolby V, lol.

James

LOL I agree with you LOL
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post #237 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ yep, I'll bet it can...while conveniently terminating Dolby V, lol.

James

Still worth trying. I noticed there's no mention of the limitation in the spreadsheet in the back of the manual, although likely just an oversight.

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post #238 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

I'm very interested in a professional review of the 4311 with actual measurements of the unit's performance.

My point in posting that quote was the fact that a price of about 2500.00 bucks for the A100. I thought in another post someone said it would be much more expensive. But is gold speaker connections and special feet with a certificate fron Denon worth the extra 500.00??
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post #239 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

My point in posting that quote was the fact that a price of about 2500.00 bucks for the A100. I thought in another post someone said it would be much more expensive. But is gold speaker connections and special feet with a certificate fron Denon worth the extra 500.00??

No, probably not.... However, given my problems with the 4810, that 5 year warranty looks mighty good. At that we get Gold speaker Connects, a special feet/base and that really slick certificate. So.... What's two years extra warranty worth to you? If nothing then it's all 4311!
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post #240 of 23296 Old 09-10-2010, 01:26 PM
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The big question between the 4311 and the A100 is do I have the patience to wait 10-15 days assuming the 4311 is released in the next week. :-) Also if the A100 is going to be limited then will anyone even be selling it below msrp or even enough below msrp to warrant it.

My experience with Mackcam Warranties. Projector sent with HDMI issue, returned with Lens damage. Still no ETA. 6 Months waiting to date. Sporadic response from CS. Stated it was sent to Epson, but was sent to another repair shop.
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Audyssey , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr A100 100th Anniversary 9 2 140w , Denon
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