The Official Integra DHC-80.2 Pre/Pro Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 3830 Old 11-24-2010, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I have no doubt that the synthesized wide or height channels can make movies sound more spectacular. But, I am primarily a music listener who prefers realism to spectacular effects. So, I want only discretely recorded, not synthesized channels, and I am in favor of more channels if discretely recorded. My reading of all reviews I have seen so far has been negative on the contribution of the synthesized extra channels with music. So, I ain't goin' there.

Hi Fitz,

I appreciate and share your preference for discrete channels over synthesized channels when they are available. However, when discrete channels are not available, I have obtained excellent results with various matrix processes that extract additional channels. However, I concede that for conventionally recorded music, particularly classical music with the orchestra in the front soundstage, the surround back channels are not as important as in some action movies.

With regard to the usefulness of wides when listening to music, there is a body of scientific evidence that demonstrates that strong lateral reflections, particularly coming from approximately 60 degrees, results in an increase in Apparent Source Width (AWS) and that this increase is consistent with an improvement in spatial impression (spaciousness) and Listener Envelopment (LEV). Furthermore, research has shown that this increase in AWS and LEV has been found to correlate with improved sound quality ratings of concert halls. Since this is a characteristic of quality concert halls, attempts to replicate these beneficial reflections may result in improved realism.

While there is no guarantee that Audyssey's implementation of DSX will accurately mimic the lateral reflections of quality concert halls, nevertheless, the underlying science upon which it based was actually derived from music applications.

Here are a relevant excerpt from Dr. Toole's book dealing with the subject:

Quote:


Spaciousness or spatial impression can be separated into two components:
Image size and position: Strong reflections have the ability to shift the apparent position of a source in the direction of the reflection and/or to make the source appear larger. In live classical performances, this is called ASW (apparent source width), and audiences like it. In sound reproduction, there is evidence that the tendency continues.

Envelopment and the sense of space: Also called listener envelopment (LEV), this is the impression of being in a specific acoustical space. It is perhaps the single most important perceived element distinguishing truly good concert halls. In music recordings and movies, it is arguably the greatest improvement contributed by multichannel audio.

Hopefully this background may relieve your concerns regarding the suitability of DSX to music and induce you to perhaps experiment with a temporary setup to test wides for yourself.

In the meantime I am anxious to read Kal's review of the Onkyo PR-SC5508 and hear what he has to say about wides. I would also be interested in reading the negative reviews that you mention. Can you provide links to them?

Thanks.

Larry
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post #902 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 07:05 AM
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Larry, note that Toole discusses this in the context of room setup/design. If your room provides some of this lateral reflection, is a "wide" channel necessary?

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post #903 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by vigga View Post

For those that have done the Audyssey Pro calibration - where in the software do you designate you second subwoofer?

There is a new section of settings in Pro 3.4 where you do that.
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post #904 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 07:26 AM
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Any views on the relative merits of these machines given the significant price difference? My main choice criterion is playback of SACDs in surround. What will the Integra give me that the Marantz will not? Other equipment includes B&W speakers (804s, HTM1 and CDM9s), and the Oppo BDP 83. Haven't focused on a companion amp yet. Currently using a Rotel RSX 1067 receiver.
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post #905 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Larry, note that Toole discusses this in the context of room setup/design. If your room provides some of this lateral reflection, is a "wide" channel necessary?

Hi Kal,

Yes, but I was attempting to relieve Fitz's concern that wides are geared only for movie applications. My point was that if the better concert halls have strong lateral reflections, this adds credence that the Wides, which are designed to replicate lateral reflections, perhaps might also enhance listening to music (as well as movies). I was not suggesting that Dr. Toole was advocating the use of Wides just that lateral reflections are an important aspect in improving the quality of listening to music.

Agreed if a room lacks acoustic treatments there may be less of a need to add Wides. Nevertheless, this does not preclude the possibility that additional simulated lateral reflections might enhance the listening experience. In my case my home theater has all the walls treated, so I am interested in whether the wides might be helpful in adding back some of these beneficial reflections that were removed by acoustic treatments.

Without having heard DSX I certainly was not asserting that Audyssey's implementation was perfect, merely that it might be worth an experiment for a knowledgeable music aficionado such as Fitz. As a respected music aficionado, who is very familiar with setting up Audyssey, I look forward to your observations on whether DSX adds to sound quality, or is a distracting "special effect".


By the way, have you received your review Onkyo PR-SC5508 yet?

Thanks.

Larry
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post #906 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music1685 View Post

Any views on the relative merits of these machines given the significant price difference? My main choice criterion is playback of SACDs in surround. What will the Integra give me that the Marantz will not? Other equipment includes B&W speakers (804s, HTM1 and CDM9s), and the Oppo BDP 83. Haven't focused on a companion amp yet. Currently using a Rotel RSX 1067 receiver.

Two things I can think of: XT/32 and Integra's track record and learning curve experience. The Marantz 8003 was always behind Integra's offerings in technology, though I never heard it. But, the 80.2 is 4th generation in refinements to their HDMI-capable prepro offering, while the new Marantz is 2nd generation. The Marantz may be an unexpected new star at a bargain price, and I have not heard it either. But, on paper, the Integra would appear to me to be the better bet. In any case, I doubt that the sonic differences are large or obvious.
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post #907 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Fitz,

I appreciate and share your preference for discrete channels over synthesized channels when they are available. However, when discrete channels are not available, I have obtained excellent results with various matrix processes that extract additional channels. However, I concede that for conventionally recorded music, particularly classical music with the orchestra in the front soundstage, the surround back channels are not as important as in some action movies.

With regard to the usefulness of wides when listening to music, there is a body of scientific evidence that demonstrates that strong lateral reflections, particularly coming from approximately 60 degrees, results in an increase in Apparent Source Width (AWS) and that this increase is consistent with an improvement in spatial impression (spaciousness) and Listener Envelopment (LEV). Furthermore, research has shown that this increase in AWS and LEV has been found to correlate with improved sound quality ratings of concert halls. Since this is a characteristic of quality concert halls, attempts to replicate these beneficial reflections may result in improved realism.

While there is no guarantee that Audyssey's implementation of DSX will accurately mimic the lateral reflections of quality concert halls, nevertheless, the underlying science upon which it based was actually derived from music applications.

Here are a relevant excerpt from Dr. Toole's book dealing with the subject:



Hopefully this background may relieve your concerns regarding the suitability of DSX to music and induce you to perhaps experiment with a temporary setup to test wides for yourself.

In the meantime I am anxious to read Kal's review of the Onkyo PR-SC5508 and hear what he has to say about wides. I would also be interested in reading the negative reviews that you mention. Can you provide links to them?

Thanks.

Larry

Larry - I hear you and some day we will have more discrete channels to provide wider and higher soundstage than we have today. I am actually quite impressed with the potential of Gary Reber's 8-channel plus sub discrete "Holosonic" scheme in Widescreen Review.

I believe the theory that says more channels would be an improvement in realism. Today, that gap is filled, perhaps poorly, by phantom imaging on the sides, with nothing in the height dimension, except for the derived matrixes of DSX, etc. I do not think phantom imaging is ever as good as a discrete channel, though. The center channel proves that in spades vs. phantom center imaging.

The theories that say we hear side and height reflected information in the concert hall are all valid, as far as I am concerned. All I question is the ability of of a matrix scheme to derive it accurately, rather than a discretly recorded channel. As sonic purist, I simply have an aversion to matrixed derived sound, but I am willing to listen with my not totally closed mind to others' experiences. Maybe I can be convinced that will be worth my while.

As to experimentation with DSX, unfortunately my wall-mounted back Martin Logan Script i's cannot be easily moved to the necessary positions. They can only be wall mounted without a whole lot of re-engineering, and there are no walls where they would need to be.

The negative reviews with music I was referring to were all in Home Theater Magazine of the Denon and Integra or Onkyo DSX-equipped gear.
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post #908 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Larry - I hear you and some day we will have more discrete channels to provide wider and higher soundstage than we have today. I am actually quite impressed with the potential of Gary Reber's 8-channel plus sub discrete "Holosonic" scheme in Widescreen Review.

I believe the theory that says more channels would be an improvement in realism. Today, that gap is filled, perhaps poorly, by phantom imaging on the sides, with nothing in the height dimension, except for the derived matrixes of DSX, etc. I do not think phantom imaging is ever as good as a discrete channel, though. The center channel proves that in spades vs. phantom center imaging.

The theories that say we hear side and height reflected information in the concert hall are all valid, as far as I am concerned. All I question is the ability of of a matrix scheme to derive it accurately, rather than a discretly recorded channel. As sonic purist, I simply have an aversion to matrixed derived sound, but I am willing to listen with my not totally closed mind to others' experiences. Maybe I can be convinced that will be worth my while.

As to experimentation with DSX, unfortunately my wall-mounted back Martin Logan Script i's cannot be easily moved to the necessary positions. They can only be wall mounted without a whole lot of re-engineering, and there are no walls where they would need to be.

The negative reviews with music I was referring to were all in Home Theater Magazine of the Denon and Integra or Onkyo DSX-equipped gear.

Hi Fitz,

My apologies, when I referred to being satisfied with matrix processing I didn't mean to mislead you into thinking that DSX is a matrix process. According to Audyssey it is definately not a matrix process. It does both extract existing content as well as derive new content that was not in the original recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

DSX is neither a room equalization nor a matrix method. It requires 5.1 content (either discrete or upmixed by some other method like PLII, Neo, etc.--there are a myriad of those). The new speakers that DSX uses are equalized for the room by the expanded version of MultEQ that will be in the new receivers. The content for the new speakers is created by the DSX algorithm by looking at the 5.1 content in real time and synthesizing the width and height information moment-by-moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

DSX has nothing to do with Dolby PLIIz. It is a completely different approach. PLIIz is a matrix method that extracts uncorrelated ambience and puts it the height channels (it doesn't support wides). It's basically PLIIx that adds height channels.

DSX is based on understanding what acoustical and perceptual cues are needed to provide a more enveloping soundstage. It then extracts and synthesizes that information and sends it to the wide and height channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

In designing DSX we wanted to make sure that it is a playback system that (i) builds on the existing standard of 5.1 and (ii) addresses some of the drawbacks of 5.1 including an undesirable separation of the front and back soundstage; the inability of 5.1 systems to pan sounds from front to back; and a soundstage that is constrained between the two front speakers.

Human hearing uses information from different directions to build an internal image of the space we are in. We are very particular about the direction of this information and how it is spectrally shaped. DSX builds on that knowledge and either extracts or synthesizes the content needed to present the scene in its appropriate size. A small intimate restaurant doesn't have the same ambience perception as a large train station. Reverb and matrix methods can only address (sort of) taking small spaces and making them sound large. So DSX is dynamically adjusting based on what it finds in the content to avoid the artifacts that come from those methods.

Larry
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post #909 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 11:45 AM
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How good do the wide speakers need to be in an otherwise high quality system to be a positive?
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post #910 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Fitz,

My apologies, when I referred to being satisfied with matrix processing I didn't mean to mislead you into thinking that DSX is a matrix process. According to Audyssey it is definately not a matrix process. It does both extract existing content as well as derive new content that was not in the original recording.







Larry

Yes, well, I used the term matrix loosely and inaccurately, too. But, I think it is all about semantics anyway. I do not know how it would usefully be able to "extract existing content" at positions where there was no mike. Yes, it could do a weighted sum of front plus side and reproduce essentially the phantom image from a speaker midway between at 60 or so degrees. It can't hurt. But, I do not see that as being worth the investment in more speaker/amp channels.

This would essentially be like playing back stereo, but with an added L+R center speaker. In most cases, that will not make a significant difference in the sound, unless there is a serious "hole in the middle" because of speaker dispersion. The main usefulness of a center speaker is to provide discrete information from that recorded direction that is not contained in or obtainable from the left or right channels.

I am most concerned with the synthetically derived portion of any resulting signal. The height channel must be 100% synthetic, because there is no "existing content" that conveys any height information. Any portion of the height or the wide signal that is synthetically derived is based entirely on internal assumptions in the algorithm, not information from the actual recorded event. In other words, it's purely a guess. It may be an educated guess, but that is precisely my concern about whether the concept is useful to me or not. As I have said, I am sure it's spectacular, but I am a guy who wants it to sound like the real thing did live. I do not see how a synthetically guestimated signal can do that. There is insufficient information.
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post #911 of 3830 Old 11-25-2010, 10:59 PM
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Ok, really detailed audio question; is the balanced audio driven by a balanced dac or are they simply inverting the dac output to balance the signal? I have a 9.8 driving a balanced theta, and the 9.8 uses the latter, inferior approach... Still beats single-ended, regardless...

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post #912 of 3830 Old 11-26-2010, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrspeakers View Post

Ok, really detailed audio question; is the balanced audio driven by a balanced dac or are they simply inverting the dac output to balance the signal? I have a 9.8 driving a balanced theta, and the 9.8 uses the latter, inferior approach... Still beats single-ended, regardless...

If it is like all previous designs, the balanced DAC outputs are converted to single ended in the I/V section of the analog filter. The balanced preamplifier outputs are derived from the single ended outputs.

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post #913 of 3830 Old 11-26-2010, 08:23 AM
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I opened the dead 80.2 I received up and it was a loose connector and can take pictures if any one is interested before it go's back as DOA (not taking a chance since they are sending another one already). Went from an onkyo 805 to this and all i can say is it reminds me of my anthem AVM20 as far as sound and features. Very happy with my purchase. My system consists of a 60LX900, bdp-s770, paradigm studio 40's ccv2, adpv2, ams 250 in-wall speakers, pw2200, buttkickers, ps3, xa2 HD player, Richard gray 400 pro. Like the on the fly fetures as far as options to audio,video,soundfield, I can put up the harmony one. The clicking is not the same as the 805 at all and is live-able and has features beyond the 805 that can't compare.
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post #914 of 3830 Old 11-26-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T100 View Post

I opened the dead 80.2 I received up and it was a loose connector and can take pictures if any one is interested before it go's back as DOA (not taking a chance since they are sending another one already). Went from an onkyo 805 to this and all i can say is it reminds me of my anthem AVM20 as far as sound and features. Very happy with my purchase. My system consists of a 60LX900, bdp-s770, paradigm studio 40's ccv2, adpv2, ams 250 in-wall speakers, pw2200, buttkickers, ps3, xa2 HD player, Richard gray 400 pro. Like the on the fly fetures as far as options to audio,video,soundfield, I can put up the harmony one. The clicking is not the same as the 805 at all and is live-able and has features beyond the 805 that can't compare.

I would love to see some internal pics of the 80.2

Thanks!
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post #915 of 3830 Old 11-26-2010, 12:28 PM
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Quick question, I just set up my 80.2 and ran XT32. Things seem great, just wondering about reference level. On my Denon 0 was reference. Right now, turning the volume to 82 says THX reference. Is there a way to set it to display 0 as reference?

Thanks!
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post #916 of 3830 Old 11-26-2010, 12:54 PM
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Interesting thread. I have had my 9.8 pre/pro for 3 years. absolutely perfect operation for that period of time-no firmware upgrades or anything. very nice unit.

I now have more HDMI switching needs than I did in 2007, so 4 HDMI inputs just don't cut it anymore After looking at a few options, I called the dealer I bought my 9.8 from and they have a 80.2 in stock they are holding for me till I can get up there(2 hours away) next week.

they are having a store-wide sale and their $500 off MSRP sealed the deal for me!

can't wait to check out the updated room calibration.

Jeff
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post #917 of 3830 Old 11-26-2010, 01:04 PM
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Go to setup. Go to Msc Choose volume. Then change from absolute to relative
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post #918 of 3830 Old 11-27-2010, 06:31 AM
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Go to setup. Go to Msc Choose volume. Then change from absolute to relative
Thank you, I should have seen that. I had a couple of issues that I was trying to figure out, and I just couldn't find that anywhere.

Thanks again.

When watching a movie, the hdmi connection would drop out and I would get a blue screen. I went through all the video settings, but it turned out to be a bad HDMI cable (I think). When I set up the 80.2 I used new Blue Jeans cables, but one must have been defective (at least I hope).


The only issue I have now is a hum in the subs that I traced to the cable box. I used an optical cable from the cable box before so I never noticed it.
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post #919 of 3830 Old 11-27-2010, 06:36 AM
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question for those that moved from the 9.8 to the 80.2 please:

is HDMI switching any quicker on the 80.2? I fully understand the protocol and handshaking that occur whenever a switch is made and delays will always occur with that, but I have friends with various models of AVR's, and their sources switch in about 1/4 the time my 9.8 requires.

It's just a slight inconvenice, no big deal, just curious.

thanks

Jeff
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post #920 of 3830 Old 11-27-2010, 01:09 PM
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got my 80.2 hooked up to the internet...but, and please don't laugh, can I view (via the hdmi on my new Sammy) and listen to Netflix (thru the 80.2) streamed thru the ethernet connection on the rear port ?
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post #921 of 3830 Old 11-27-2010, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by alanl715 View Post

got my 80.2 hooked up to the internet...but, and please don't laugh, can I view (via the hdmi on my new Sammy) and listen to Netflix (thru the 80.2) streamed thru the ethernet connection on the rear port ?

No.

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post #922 of 3830 Old 11-27-2010, 06:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post

It's very hard for me to imagine how chaning audio modes with the 80.2 would cause pops out the speakers. Knowing some about how electronics are designed I believe Integra has relays to open or disconnect the pre-outs when the audio mode is not sync'ed. In the early days of DD, many processors let really bad noise out of the preouts when DD wasn't synch'ed. For example, if I'm using an audio mode with the issue and I enter the menu and then when I leave I get a pop, every time. But, if I enter the menu when using one of the audio modes that work properly, no pop, never. Pretty hard to see how this could be environmental.

Perhaps I got a second unit with bad relays?

Why don't you take your unit and hook it up to your dealers system to see if you get these pops. Then you will know whether it is your system or the unit.
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post #923 of 3830 Old 11-27-2010, 08:10 PM
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Why don't you take your unit and hook it up to your dealers system to see if you get these pops. Then you will know whether it is your system or the unit.

I live in the Phoenix area and was unable to find a dealer who had an actual showroom. All that I called when I ordered were custom installers or home builders.

I did call the dealer I purchased from to try the original unit at their shop. I'm happy with my dealer, but they do not have any showroom or other equipment. The dealer came to my home Tuesday and he was shocked at the pops. He checked the phase and polarity with my wall sockets and found nothing amiss. He sent the original unit to Integra Tues and he was going to make sure they checked it for pops before sending to refurb.

Anyone with a spare amp in the Tempe AZ area?
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post #924 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 08:39 AM
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Does the 80.2 support a powered down HDMI pass through connection?

In other words, there will be times when I don't want to have my preamp (and the rest of my entire setup powered up) when watching cable TV. As such, I'm hoping the 80.2 supports HDMI pass through on one of it's HDMI in/outs.
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post #925 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

While I'm sure this is the possibility - the commonality between the two iterations that have been tried is the rest of the system - suggesting that something there is to blame - though that isn't conclusive by any means and it is certainly possible that you got two bad units.

Seems like you are working with a very responsive dealer - might he be willing to bring over another amp to try?

I haven't done enough detailed analysis of the pops to associate them with specific audio modes - but I also get them when I exit the menu fairly reliably when the audio resyncs - which does support your point about environmental causes being unlikely - unless the Integra resyncs different to different audio sources? As I've said - not all syncs are associated pops, but all pops are associate with syncing clicks - which suggests to me that the Integra itself is doing something differently in this situations.

I agree. All along I have suspected that the amps do not like the Integra. My hunch is that if you were to try different amps, you would get a different result. It's possible the Integra leaks a bit of DC or other bad things on switching modes. Some amps have better input filtering for this than others.
That may explain it.

Never a pop here with 3 different amp brands on 3 different AC circuits - 2 of them not the same circuit as the Integra. Ditto for prior experience with the 9.8 and 80.1.
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post #926 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I agree. All along I have suspected that the amps do not like the Integra. My hunch is that if you were to try different amps, you would get a different result. It's possible the Integra leaks a bit of DC or other bad things on switching modes. Some amps have better input filtering for this than others.
That may explain it.

Never a pop here with 3 different amp brands on 3 different AC circuits - 2 of them not the same circuit as the Integra. Ditto for prior experience with the 9.8 and 80.1.

I agree that the Integra may be sending out some DC. The amp is a Proceed AMP5 from Madrigal. The same design as Levinson amps from about 10 years ago. Great amp, very quiet, and until now incredibly well behaved. I think was $5K in 1999 when I bought it, and the resale is still strong on them so they are well respected. Hard to believe this design doesn't deal well with normal input noise. Also, to reiterate, the pops are always when the 80.2 is changing states;
- switch relays to output audio when powering up
- switch relays to output audio when powering down
- when changing some audio modes but not others. The only modes that have issues are digital modes.
- when exiting the menu and in an audio mode that pops

Also, the pops happen when the audio stream changes from 5.1 to 2.0 even when muted.

I hear relays click when I mute. I'd think the 80.2 is opening relays to the output when muting. My dealer says he used to work as an audio component designer and that's the normal way they do it. If this is true, how could I get pops? Dealer thinks it's possible they got a batch or relays that have some bad ones? Should hear from the dealer late next week once Integra gets my first unit.

In the mean time, still looking for someone in AZ who would bring over a spare amp.
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post #927 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 12:56 PM
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As I've said - though i haven't done as thorough of a job at documenting - it seems that I'm getting pops identical circumstances as Joe -

I am using a Wyred4Sound MMC5 Class D amp. My experience with the W4S is that they are exceptionally sensitive which is why I had never ruled out that maybe the amp was picking something up. Never heard anything like this with my Denon 3808 that I was using previously - no matter what it was switching between.
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post #928 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post


I agree that the Integra may be sending out some DC. The amp is a Proceed AMP5 from Madrigal. The same design as Levinson amps from about 10 years ago. Great amp, very quiet, and until now incredibly well behaved. I think was $5K in 1999 when I bought it, and the resale is still strong on them so they are well respected. Hard to believe this design doesn't deal well with normal input noise. Also, to reiterate, the pops are always when the 80.2 is changing states;
- switch relays to output audio when powering up
- switch relays to output audio when powering down
- when changing some audio modes but not others. The only modes that have issues are digital modes.
- when exiting the menu and in an audio mode that pops

Also, the pops happen when the audio stream changes from 5.1 to 2.0 even when muted.

I hear relays click when I mute. I'd think the 80.2 is opening relays to the output when muting. My dealer says he used to work as an audio component designer and that's the normal way they do it. If this is true, how could I get pops? Dealer thinks it's possible they got a batch or relays that have some bad ones? Should hear from the dealer late next week once Integra gets my first unit.

In the mean time, still looking for someone in AZ who would bring over a spare amp.

I had similar problems with my Krell Kav-500. Switched to XLR's and the problems seized.
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post #929 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 01:49 PM
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For me, switching to balanced connections changed the "character" of the pops, but not their presence.
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post #930 of 3830 Old 11-28-2010, 02:20 PM
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Has anyone had success programming the Integra remote with the functions of the Roku XDS or the Apple TV? I've assigned them to Game and PC. Their functions are pretty basic, input wheel and a few buttons. -thanks
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