The Official Integra DHC-80.2 Pre/Pro Thread - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I seriously doubt I would find them objectionable.

Well I do. Objectionable may be strong, but I do find them to be annoying.

At this point I'm going to bow out of the clicking discussion - I've made my opinion know in posts 1334 & 1346. For some reason it seems like people are taking this personally. My opinion is my opinion. No amount of numbers or arguments are going to change my impression of this and that I find it an annoying aspect of an otherwise stellar product. Like I've said: The unit clicks and my "prior to Integra" silent system now has noises emanating from it which to me are bothersome whether during content or not.

Craig: I don't disagree with you. The unit is an excellent value and currently the single best reasonably priced option that is currently on the market. I still wouldn't go in a different direction - even if I was purchasing again right now. There are those that are clearly more sensitive to this and I'm one - coming from a pre/pro before that was totally silent in operation, I find the stream of noises coming from my closet annoying. Clearly I am willing to deal with this or I would have not stayed with the 80.2. But I just don't see how people can come on and tell me that my opinion of something is not my opinion. I've said all along - for me it is an annoyance - clearly not a deal breaker - but its something that I think needs to be mentioned when discussing this piece. Others here fall into the same camp - especially those that are having to make compromises on listening modes as a result of their sat/cable boxes. I think the overblown reaction may be: I would not own this unit because of the relay clicks. Only individual users can make that determination and that's where demo'ing comes in.

As fitz pointed out earlier: The 80.2 clicks during normal operation. There are some things that can be done to minimize this, but if you find it objectionable, then you should think about going in a different direction.
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post #1352 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I do not know that we have the last word on relay clicking yet. But, in summary, I think what we have been able to do here in this thread with help from all is to narrow down much more carefully why and where the relay clicks occur. I think this has been useful to all concerned, because it eliminates a lot of prior speculation about how widespread the issue is (it's fairly narrow and specific), unit to unit variance (there appears to be none), whether there could be an Integra firmware fix (apparently not), etc.

Most notably, Direct TV seems to be the major trigger of the clicks. The reason for that has been identified several posts above this, and it looks like Direct TV may be working on a fix. But, users of other services, like my Comcast cable, can watch TV for hours, change channels, etc., etc. and never hear one click. This is assuming proper setup of the Listening Mode Presets in the Integra, otherwise more clicking may be triggered.

For music listening or video watching, only Blu-ray chapter skips seem to be a regular cause of clicking. If your watching habits include a lot of that, be prepared for some clicking.

Location of the unit is also a major contributor to people's satisfation regarding the clicks. Obviously, the closer the unit to one's ears, the more annoying the clicking.

Hopefully, recognition of this inadvertent design glitch and a quieter relay will eventually wend its way into future versions of this otherwise marvellous unit. But, for now, buyers should be forewarned to pre-audition this unit (or any alternatives from other manufacturers) in their typical listening/watching situations to judge for themselves whether the clicking is tolerable. I, myself, am perhaps fortunate in that I have little exposure to these triggers, so my own satisfaction is quite high.

I think this is the best advice on the issue I've heard and concur fully. If you can, demo/listen to a unit and think through your own setup to avoid any surprises. After that, either buy and enjoy a very capable unit or pick something better suited for your preferences, all things considered.
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post #1353 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 08:22 AM
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Gotta problem maybe you folks can help me out.

When the 80.1 does an auto calibration with Auddyssey the amp shuts off.

This happens with the 12V trigger connected and without it connected.

Suggestions?

Mike Miles

ICR [ Sales Consulting and Small Part-Time AV shop, very small...  ]

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post #1354 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Gotta problem maybe you folks can help me out.

When the 80.1 does an auto calibration with Auddyssey the amp shuts off.

This happens with the 12V trigger connected and without it connected.

Suggestions?

Are you sure the amp turns off even if the 12v trigger isn't connected? You've removed it from Standby Mode before disconnecting it?
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post #1355 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 09:24 AM
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call Integra support 800 225-1946 and mebbe they could give u some insight.
if u purchased it less than 6 months ago, u could get it exch from your dealer !
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post #1356 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 10:57 AM
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If the amp shuts off without being connected to the 12v trigger, then it doesn't seem likely the 80.1 could be at fault, does it?
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post #1357 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 11:34 AM
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Could be the calibration signal is causing the amp to go into protection mode and shut down. Could also be a bad pre/pro (d.c. at the output would usually do that to an amp). I agree with calling your dealer and getting it checked out...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #1358 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 11:51 AM
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post #1359 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 12:04 PM
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He said 80.1. What happens if mute is on by mistake?

However if the amp is on sans trigger there should be lights etc. The kind of amp would be useful to know prior to speculation. Also is this a DHC 80.1?
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post #1360 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post


...

As fitz pointed out earlier: The 80.2 clicks during normal operation. There are some things that can be done to minimize this, but if you find it objectionable, then you should think about going in a different direction.

I would like clarification on what is meant by "the 80.2 clicks during *normal* operation".

Are you saying that the clicks can occur even when the audio format isn't changing, or channels are being changed? I.e., during the middle of a movie?
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post #1361 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:30 PM
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Maybe I should have said "during the course of"... No, while content is actually playing it sounds great.
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post #1362 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:31 PM
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Doesn't happen in the middle of a movie.
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post #1363 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:33 PM
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Well, it's sad, but good to know, that the 80.2 is still not tolerant of audio stream dropouts. That's a deal-breaker for me, as an owner of an 80.1 and DirecTV DVR, a combo which drops out all the time.

A lot of people seem to have focused on the relay clicking, which can be annoying but the real problem from my standpoint is the audible dropouts (accompanied by clicks) during normal programming (not commercial transitions) on many DirecTV channels. For example, SpeedVision has an audible dropout every few minutes, it's maddening.

I have a similar DirecTV DVR in the bedroom connected to an older Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi receiver. When I watch the same recorded programming (via DirecTV Whole House DVR networking) that drops out like crazy on my Integra 80.1, there are zero audible glitches on the Pioneer, although sometimes I notice the Dolby Digital indicator briefly flickers off (still no audible glitch).

Sure, the source of the issue is the programming, but there is no way to fix that since it's provided to DirecTV from the broadcaster. I don't believe SpeedVision undergoes an MPEG2-4 conversion. I get the dropouts during normal programming on basically every DirecTV channel, only the frequency of occurrence is different -- some channels may only have 1 dropout in an hour or more, some have several an hour.

So the big issue from my standpoint is that my fancy Integra 80.1 balanced preamp experiences frequent annoying and unacceptable audio dropouts, while my less-expensive, old (circa 2005/6) Pioneer receiver doesn't have the problem at all (or rather, is far more tolerant of stream disruptions).

When I first had this issue back with my DHC-9.8, I figured Integra would get around to publishing a firmware update to make the unit more tolerant. I continued this wishful thinking when I upgraded to the 80.1 (big mistake). I'm not slamming the 80.1 here for the majority of users on other broadcast systems, but DirecTV has a big percentage of the market and for Integra to fail to produce a fix over this period of time is just unacceptable.

You might be able to imagine how annoying the little relay click sound is, when it heralds the arrival of an audio dropout during a key dramatic scene in a movie or the punchline of a joke! It's not really the click itself, it's the click signaling me that I bought the wrong preamp for DirecTV
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post #1364 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:38 PM
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I have the clicks but only a few dropouts with the latest firmware and a hr20. Guess this is really channel dependent. Long thread on this in the dbstalk forums.
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post #1365 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I would like clarification on what is meant by "the 80.2 clicks during *normal* operation"...

Start-up, changing of inputs etc.

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post #1366 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:41 PM
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KC,

Seems to me as one who has had enough drop outs to last a lifetime, your solution is to correct what's causing the dropouts in your satellite system.

This may be to go to seperate larger dishes if you can not fine tune your existing dish to get a stronger and less prone to dropout signal.

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post #1367 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 03:47 PM
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Originally reported in Post #484

I've been emailing Integra every couple of weeks on this and the only answer I get is that they are still working on it with engineering, but so far no resolution, nor does it look like it will be solved any time soon or at all.

Not that this is a big format or that there is a wealth of sources with this format; however, it is annoying that it does not work correctly.

Has anyone else run into this problem and reported it to Integra?

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post #1368 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

Maybe I should have said "during the course of"... No, while content is actually playing it sounds great.

Thanks for the clarification.
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post #1369 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 08:50 PM
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does the relay click happen:

a.) between songs when listening to a cd?

b) between songs when listening to (for example) FLAC files via usb?
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post #1370 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 10:14 PM
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I have something positive to say about the 80.2 that has nothing to do with relays.

This thing is a video processing powerhouse! Not just the up conversion and such, but tonight I discovered some of the advanced stuff under setup section 4 for source settings, like the ability to set brightness and contrast individually for r/g/b. Using some of the test patterns on the bt.709 disc I burned from the image on this forum some time ago I was able to significantly improve the greyscale and overall color quality of my CRT NEC xg (runco) projector in a way that wasn't easily achievable before. The ISF Day mode is also useful for punching up shadow detail when there's some ambient light in the room.

I'm quite happy with it!

Andy
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post #1371 of 3830 Old 01-05-2011, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post


Look - I totally understand it's a quirk of the unit and it may or may not bother any given user in their specific situation. I still think it is the single best realistically priced (ADA and such) option on the market currently: I, personally, can't see paying for an unused amp section in the Denon 4311 and the Marantz 7005's lack of Audyssey XT32 is a disqualifier.

Considering that the 4311 can probably be found for less money than a 80.2, and the fact that you can easily disengage the amp section of if you want. And when you add in the fact that it can do a full 11.2 setup if you also use it's internal amps, where the 80.2 can only do 9.2, and that is not counting the fact how handy those built in amps would be if you want to set up zones. I don't see where you are really being penalized price wise a whole lot with having amps in the 4311, even if at first you don't intend to use them. Really if you go by the features as listed on their respective spec sheets, and not counting any subjective 'how it sounds' opinions'. The only main advantages in having the 80.2, over a 4311, is that 80.2 has XLR outputs, and also has THX certification. But, that it also lacks some other nice feature that the 4311 does have. So really, other than for the fact one is a pre-pro and the other is a very nice featured AVR, they are for the most part equal, both have their own pro's & cons of ownership. Personally I think one of Integra's/Onkyo's biggest mistakes with their 80.2/5508, was not adding support for the option of a full 11.2 setup, like Denon has for the 4311 and also has for their 4810. It's probably one of the fist times where Denon has beat Intgegra/Onkyo, as far as being the first for offering a new feature.
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post #1372 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Considering that the 4311 can probably be found for less money than a 80.2, and the fact that you can easily disengage the amp section of if you want. And when you add in the fact that it can do a full 11.2 setup if you also use it's internal amps, where the 80.2 can only do 9.2, and that is not counting the fact how handy those built in amps would be if you want to set up zones. I don't see where you are really being penalized price wise a whole lot with having amps in the 4311, even if at first you don't intend to use them. Really if you go by the features as listed on their respective spec sheets, and not counting any subjective 'how it sounds' opinions'. The only main advantages in having the 80.2, over a 4311, is that 80.2 has XLR outputs, and also has THX certification. But, that it also lacks some other nice feature that the 4311 does have. So really, other than for the fact one is a pre-pro and the other is a very nice featured AVR, they are for the most part equal, both have their own pro's & cons of ownership. Personally I think one of Integra's/Onkyo's biggest mistakes with their 80.2/5508, was not adding support for the option of a full 11.2 setup, like Denon has for the 4311 and also has for their 4810. It's probably one of the fist times where Denon has beat Intgegra/Onkyo, as far as being the first for offering a new feature.

I stand by my opinion - you are welcome to yours. I have a 5.1 so clearly I can't consider lack of support for 9 vs 11 channels even remotely a negative, but I think this discussion is best held elsewhere.
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post #1373 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

does the relay click happen:

a.) between songs when listening to a cd?

b) between songs when listening to (for example) FLAC files via usb?

I have never heard a click using my Squeeze Touch for play back of my music
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post #1374 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I would like clarification on what is meant by "the 80.2 clicks during *normal* operation".

Are you saying that the clicks can occur even when the audio format isn't changing, or channels are being changed? I.e., during the middle of a movie?

I think I was pretty clear in my attempt to summarize the situation. No, it does not click in the middle of a movie, unless there is a disc defect that causes a dropout. In other words, the 80.2 does not click randomly. It only clicks when triggered by specific events.

So, far, the major trigger events are dropouts in Direct TV, such as the switch from Mch program to commercial and back or changing channels. With other cable services, such as Comcast, it does not click at all in these circumstances if the Listening Mode Presets are set up consistently. As I have said previously I can watch TV for hours and hours with no clicks whatsoever on commercials, station breaks, or on changing channels. The issue with Direct TV is a technical one involving dropouts on their end as sound modes change triggering the click in the Integra. This is, I believe, far and away the major complaint about the clicking and understandably so.

There may be a single initial click as a new listening mode is engaged. This happens, for example, once when a Blu-ray switches from lower rez sound in the startup menu, previews, etc. to the main feature in hi rez lossless audio. But, this happens once and is hardly a major issue.

More significant, perhaps, to some on a hi rez audio Blu-ray feature is that every time you push the chapter skip key, it clicks. If you do this a lot to get to a specific chapter, there will be a lot of clicking.

There may also be a click for each button push if you scroll through listening modes manually on the remote. But, that's about it.

So, what I have been trying to do is to pin this down accurately. Those not on Direct TV, like me, do not seem to have major complaints about clicking. It's pretty rare and isolated. The notion that the 80.2 clicks "all the time" is just not true, except on the transition to/from commercials, etc. on Direct TV or possibly other less prominent program providers or cable carriers.
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post #1375 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

I have never heard a click using my Squeeze Touch for play back of my music

Me neither.

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post #1376 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

does the relay click happen:

a.) between songs when listening to a cd?

No. Not at all. The major clicking problem during program material has been isolated to just Direct TV.
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post #1377 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

The only main advantages in having the 80.2, over a 4311, is that 80.2 has XLR outputs, and also has THX certification. But, that it also lacks some other nice feature that the 4311 does have. So really, other than for the fact one is a pre-pro and the other is a very nice featured AVR, they are for the most part equal.

Today's the day I would like to buy. If you were able to a/b compare do you think I would hear a difference? I really like the clean look to the Denon, but I am here in the 80.2 thread to hear why I should get it over the Denon.

Also would like to confirm Hdmi pass through when the receiver is in standby. Is it both HDMI outputs or just the main?
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post #1378 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jmschnur on DBS Talk
"I do not understand why a user discretionary buffer - delay of 1-100 msecs in the AVR would not help this in the case of the Integra/onkyo units. ??

I would guess the difference between Sony and Onkyo is the typeof relays or process used for codec implementation. Onkyo's relays are clearly audible. Not loud just there as a weak click"

From DBS Talk
"While this might be a way to help, I don't know what effects it might cause either."

Quote from jmschnur

"there seems to be an actual break in the audio stream as commercials change
This seems to be coming from the broadcaster as they change their bit-rate or turn Dolby on/off."

From DBS Talk
"You say you can change your AVR setting so this doesn't happen with Comcast and Fios.
DirecTV's MPEG-4 encoders [from the other thread] are having slight losses of the Dolby signal, which may be the best place for a patch to the firmware to maintain the Dolby for the msec that you're thinking.
This really only seems to be affecting a few makers of AVRs that have long cycle times or mechanical relays.
The others either don't use mechanical relays or damp the cycling so this doesn't happen, or is barely noticeable."


So why can't Onkyo Integra "damp" the cycling or provide a simple 2 msec buffer to hold the codec thus eliminating a large number of the clicks?
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post #1379 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

does the relay click happen:

b) between songs when listening to (for example) FLAC files via usb?

anyone?
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post #1380 of 3830 Old 01-06-2011, 11:09 AM
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My collection is mostly lossless Flac via EAC. I have not heard any clicks from SqueezeTouch or network DLNA access- I prefer the Squeezetouch since I can search better.

I have not used a usb as the source of my music.

Joel
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