The "Official" NAD T 747 Owner's Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wappinghigh View Post
I do understand where his frustration probably originally came from though.
Oh my... now I understand, and absolutely agree that any equipment sold into a market with your requirements should be able to handle the market formats.

More...

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So we are left with a situation where customers have to test EVERY new piece of technology themselves when they get it home. Now this might be OK in the US, where your 100% consumer driven society makes it dead set easy to return the product "no questions asked". But here? Well it's not as easy to do that. There is ALWAYS an argument with the retailer. Most would flatly refuse an exchange for such a reason. So the customer has to wear it. Or come up with a "work around" as lady fingers did.
I think your vision of consumer rights in the U.S. is rather idealized. I have been known to become 271lbs of pure fang-faced mean with a couple retailers here, and taken a couple more to court. Always walked away with my money back.

If you really want to see U.S. based consumer abuse, you ought to deal with our telephone companies. The only recourse a lot of times is to sic the legal beagles on 'em. (i.e. Lawyers - barristers?)

-Paul
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post #632 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 08:39 PM
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@Ladyfingers

Ah- thanks! Now I understand what you are dealing with. Appreciate you and Wap taking the time to educate me.

-Paul
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post #633 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 09:09 PM
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I just played a few minutes of the movie "Day After Tomorrow" bluray using my Sony S5000ES bd player connected through analog to my T744. Sounds great. It is a little bit different compared to my HK. The HK had more pronounced treble. The NAD seems to have a little bit more bass. I do have to turn up the volume probably upto -15dB in the volume control to match the sound that comes out of HK at -30dB. But I think those numbers are not apples to apples comparison. My speakers are probably pretty easy to drive. Klipsch RF5 fronts and RC7 center. These are 95dB/W sensitive. Since I have already put my 745 on eBay, I am going to just leave it disconnected. I am too tired to keep swapping the two! Now I have to decide whether to just live with the T744 for now since HDMI is not absolutely important or get the T747. With my 20x15 room, I am not sure if I need an amp or not. I have never owned an amp before. If I can get away without a receiver, may be I can get a T955 to augment the T744. If the T955 has been around for several years, should I wait for a newer amp or is this it for NAD for a while?
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post #634 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Marty913 View Post
Ultimately the answer is probably an external amp as Paul suggested. That is the one sure way to separate the power from the "features" and to somewhat isolate yourself from product line feature creep. At current prices, a 747 + 955 combination at $1,400 would effectively give you a 150+ watt "receiver". Not many of those around. When the feature set doesn't meet your needs, just swap out the $600 part.
That's very tempting, but I promise myself not to spend $$ on audio for a while Also, I cannot buy from US stores. But that 955 at 800$, that's too good !!!
Just off the record, the only store in Canada who has NAD prices listed online just raised their prices. T765 now goes for 3k, and T785 for 4500$. Multiply that by 1.04 and you'll find out how much those things cost in their origine country
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post #635 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by paul.raulerson View Post
@Ladyfingers

Ah- thanks! Now I understand what you are dealing with. Appreciate you and Wap taking the time to educate me.

-Paul
No problem!

Like I said, I'm more than happy enough in the end with my rat's nest of HDMI cables and the excellent sound of the T747 for the price, but if anyone is planning to use it as-is for anything approaching the variety of tasks I do, then the T747 is just too flawed a product to recommend wholeheartedly. I still love mine though.
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post #636 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 09:47 PM
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Desp...If you need the power, it would be hard to argue against Marty's advice...that's a great solution
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post #637 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post
I just played a few minutes of the movie "Day After Tomorrow" bluray using my Sony S5000ES bd player connected through analog to my T744. Sounds great. It is a little bit different compared to my HK. The HK had more pronounced treble. The NAD seems to have a little bit more bass. I do have to turn up the volume probably upto -15dB in the volume control to match the sound that comes out of HK at -30dB. But I think those numbers are not apples to apples comparison. My speakers are probably pretty easy to drive. Klipsch RF5 fronts and RC7 center. These are 95dB/W sensitive. Since I have already put my 745 on eBay, I am going to just leave it disconnected. I am too tired to keep swapping the two! Now I have to decide whether to just live with the T744 for now since HDMI is not absolutely important or get the T747. With my 20x15 room, I am not sure if I need an amp or not. I have never owned an amp before. If I can get away without a receiver, may be I can get a T955 to augment the T744. If the T955 has been around for several years, should I wait for a newer amp or is this it for NAD for a while?
The NAD power and pre-amps are where the sound is. I think if you like their particular rich, slightly laid-back sound then don't bother upgrading to a newer NAD receiver for its digital processing. In my opinion (especially in a 50Hz area) the HDMI video issues in the T747 make it a pointless upgrade over an older NAD amp with similar power ratings. Do the processing outboard and keep the older one for its amps.
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post #638 of 1655 Old 04-18-2011, 11:42 PM
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I just finished watching the movie Devil in Bluray. It has some ominous music that just came out real well using the T744. I am not sure if it was a combination of the BurrBrown DACs in the Sony S5000ES player or the turned up sound of the T744 (I turned the volume up to -15dB), but I really enjoyed the experience. I am not even going to bother reconnecting the HK AVR 745.

Now my big question is should I invest in a 747 or a 955 and use my 744 (but then what will I use downstairs in the living room But I don't watch anything there anyways!

How often do you guys see T955 amps go on sale and have then gone lower in price?
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post #639 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 12:45 AM
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There is a 975 over here for sale for 2K. Demo. I'd say these would turn over much less frequently than preamps.

I say go for it! Get both and live life to the fullest. Put whatever you don't like as much downstairs...life's short ...Glass half full and all that

The way to get it 'approved' at home is to take the good lady/man into a hiend store and show him/her some 10K cd player or something... Then tell him/ her what a bargain you are buying. And how much stress will be relieved by taking it out on the playstation downstairs, or playing whatever music you like at full throttle...

You NEED both! $1400 is a steal for this much flexibilty. Some folk blow $140,000 on a car. Whats the price of a failed 'mistress'! Tell that to your partner. Its obviously yr passion. ..So what ya waiting for? As Suzzie Orman would say, "Approved" Just go and buy them!
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post #640 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 05:21 AM
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wappinghigh - i have a big smile reading your post

How do I know if an amp will even make any difference if I am still in the linear range of the receiver? Will I hear a difference even at lower volumes?
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post #641 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bommai View Post

wappinghigh - i have a big smile reading your post

How do I know if an amp will even make any difference if I am still in the linear range of the receiver? Will I hear a difference even at lower volumes?

I don't know. Will you here a "difference"...Who really knows....But the sound will seem easssssyyyy. As a rule it's better to have more power than the rating of the speakers than the other way around. And there is the added benefit of cranking up the volume and really giving the neighbours the shits. THAT is pure bliss !!

But that's not my point. The point is for you (like me) this is an obvious hobby. An interest. And that alone keeps the mind ticking over. And in itself THAT alone is worth the money. Because it keeps you sane, off the streets, stopping you from strangling your mother in law, shooting up from drugs, gambling away the money instead, outa jail..whatever. The tickering with the amps, the cables, the repositioning of the speakers, the audessy set up.... it's like playing around with an old car restoration.

And what better gear than with a fantastic second hand multichannel amp (like that NAD) a heavily discounted 747 and your trusty old NAD receiver. The combinations are endless. The power amp alone has more future uses than $800. You can run say 2 separate Sonos room zones with that amp, if your circumstances change. or Bi-amp the front speakers to open the sound of them up a bit.....Not to mention the discussion with us all and with a wacko guy from another "Melbourne" on the opposite side of the globe....I mean the price to happiness value is insane.

You know I had a 773. And I sold it for $750 on ebay. A great price. The guy that bought it off me is thrilled to bits. He wanted the extra power. Couldn't care less about HDMI. Now I kinda miss it. Anyway. Through that sale we have struck up an email friendship because he loves NAD as well. He spends his whole time putting silver into old NAD stereo amps..Heck I don't know what he is up too... anyway, It's a community. NAD's one of those "brands". Like Alfa Romeo. Or Harley Davidson. People love this stuff. You can't get that sort of "Luv" with crap like Denon, or Yamaha. Even HK !... LOL..

This is all priceless. So just DO IT !
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post #642 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

wappinghigh - i have a big smile reading your post

How do I know if an amp will even make any difference if I am still in the linear range of the receiver? Will I hear a difference even at lower volumes?

I'm sure others may disagree but I am a long time amp user so I'll offer this.

IF your speakers are 95db efficient and IF you listen at lower volumes and IF you routinely use a powered sub-woofer, then I would say no you will probably not hear a significant difference with the 955 over the 947 internal amps. For me it makes sense because my speakers are a difficult load (5 Ohm) although reasonable efficient (90); I occasionally listen at higher volumes; and routinely listen to music without a sub-woofer. My speakers have 6 active drivers per cabinet + a passive radiator so controlled power with a lot of "instant" reserve can be beneficial. If you're happy with the T744 power you should be fine with the T747 (or just keep the T744).

You seem to be wrestling with "what to do" so I guess it begs the question "what problem are you trying to solve". You like the NAD sound so the T744 solves that versus the HK now on EBay. If the 744 has the power you need the 747 would only add HDMI which you say isn't a huge deal for you. I guess I'm at a loss as to what you may be trying to accomplish.

The T747 is a great deal on newer-type equipment (vs the 744), offers relatively equal effective power, and adds HDMI. Whether that is enough to justify the $599, only you can answer that. If power is a concern the T955 can be added later but should be a separate decision. I thought you had a 747 for awhile and returned it because you thought the sound quality was less than the HK. What changed?
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post #643 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 07:13 AM
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My personal thanks to Ladyfingers & wappinghigh for their last couple of posts. Not only informative but both point out that half the fun involved with this hobby is playing with equipment, solving problems, and talking to other like-minded individuals in forums like this. I've been buying this stuff and endlessly reconfiguring it since the early 70's and it rarely gets old (it does however, frequently gets expensive). In those days we could sit around for hours listening to music (mostly with illegal smiles on our faces). I've forgotten most of the hundreds of pieces of equipment but I still remember the friends.

Let's not forget that the second half of the fun is actually listening to the music and movies.
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post #644 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 07:27 AM
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I will say, that in the U.S., with everything at 60hz, the issues you have in the 50hz world are greatly mitigated. There is no need in North America for all the bypass stuff you have to do down there.

-Paul
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post #645 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 07:37 AM
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Marty - when I got the 747, I don't think I gave it enough of a chance. While I still think the hk is more powerful, I think the dialogs and music were a little bit more refined on the 747. One more thing I was frustrated with was the framerate issue and the center channel cutting out everything other time with my ps3. Anyway I am still waiting to make my decision. I guess I just wanted a change from my hk. I did not sell my 745 all this time and I had bought and returned receivers but may be with the 745 out of the way, I might be forced to make a decision. I am probably still interested in hdmi because I still have a ps3 but if I come across a good deal on an older NAD may be I will pounce. I found a T763 on eBay but I am a little leery because they were known for their poor reliability. A NAD service shop in Tampa told me that they see quite a few t763. He said I should go for the 747 with the current sale.
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post #646 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 11:08 AM
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I found out today that my Klipsch RF5 and RC7 dip to 4 ohms at 200Hz. I still think that would be ok for the T747 right. I saw a blurb in the manual that said use speakers of at least 8 ohms or something like that.
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post #647 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

I found out today that my Klipsch RF5 and RC7 dip to 4 ohms at 200Hz. I still think that would be ok for the T747 right. I saw a blurb in the manual that said use speakers of at least 8 ohms or something like that.

I had this recent exchange with NAD's tech support:

Me: I own an NAD T747. I auditioned PSB speakers recently loved the sound. I purchased a pair of B5s, B4s and a C4 for a 5.1 setup (already have a subwoofer) to pair with this receiver. After this purchase, I noticed the T747 manual (on page 10) specifically states "please make sure that all the speakers are rated 8 ohms minimum per speaker." I see all the PSB speakers are rated 6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum. It's entirely possible I'll want to play music at loud volumes for long periods of time, but it would seem this is not advisable with this pairing. Should I be worried? Thanks

NAD Rep: Thank you for contacting the NAD Electronics Support Centre.

We do not recommend that you use 4 ohms speakers with this unit. They may damage the unit.

We do recommend 8 ohms but 6 should work fine and should not damage your unit.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,


Me again: Thanks. I guess I'm confused about PSB's impedance ratings. They are specifically listed as 6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum. Does that mean they would be classified as 6 ohms speakers or 4 ohms speakers? Is this a question I should be asking PSB?

NAD Rep: It has now been decided that using 4 ohm speakers with the T747 is alright.

We do however recommend 8 ohms but 6 and 4 should work fine and should not damage your unit.

There is no problem driving 4 ohm nominal impedance speakers (like PSB).


Make of this what you will.
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post #648 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 12:43 PM
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NAD Rep: It has now been decided that using 4 ohm speakers with the T747 is alright.
That is a funny line!!

So, how do your speakers sound? Also, I seem to remember that the overall build quality of the 747 is not as solid as the T744. I am sure NAD has cut cost on the AVR. Even the remote. The HTR2 is solid and the buttons are high quality. The AVR3 felt very cheap to me. Even some buttons were sticky that it I had to press multiple times.

One more question - is there an amp off setting in the 747 when using it as a pre/pro?
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post #649 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 01:13 PM
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The Images sound fantastic. I might have preferred to get a couple of towers but I just don't have the floorspace and don't imagine I will any time soon.

I sent those same questions to PSB and received very similar but slightly more vague responses:

PSB Rep: Thank you for contacting the PSB Speakers Support Centre.

We do not recommend that you use 4 ohms speakers with this unit. They
may damage the unit.

We do recommend 8 ohms but 6 should work fine and should not damage your
unit.

Kind regards,

PSB Speakers


Me: Thank you. I guess I'm confused about PSB's impedance ratings. The Image series is specifically listed as 6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum. Does that mean they would be classified as 6 ohms speakers or 4 ohms speakers? Does the minimum mean they will never go below 4 ohms?

PSB Rep: 4 ohms is a minimum.

I had more than one audio store clerk and several people on these and other AV forums assure me that the T747 would drive PSB's Image series with no problem, so I found the responses from the actual companies a little perplexing.
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post #650 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 01:57 PM
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PSB and NAD are now owned by the same company, and the 1st level tech support leaves a bit to be desired.

Here's a link that may help your piece of mind. For what it is worth, I have driven PSB Imagines and Magneplan MMGS on the T747, and those are 4ohm loads indeed. The receiver will get warm, but not alarmingly so. The T747 also has a blu ray player sitting on top of it.

-Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0oZ0...yer_detailpage
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post #651 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menocu View Post
I had more than one audio store clerk and several people on these and other AV forums assure me that the T747 would drive PSB's Image series with no problem, so I found the responses from the actual companies a little perplexing.
Especially perplexing considering they are the same company (NAD & PSB are "sister" companies that share the same labs, office space, customer service, etc.). They are both owned by The Lenbrook Group.

Anyway, 8 ohm speakers routinely fluctuate between 8 & 6 with 6 ohm fluctuating between 4 & 6. Speakers are never a constant load. The danger comes with 4 Ohm nominal speakers because they may dip to 2 Ohms. I'm positive that was what the concern was. You PSB's at 6 nominal do not present an even remote possibility of damaging the T747.

My speakers are rated 6 Ohm nominal although they measure 5.3 Ohms at rest and I drove them for 2 months with my 747, including hours at fairly high volume levels. Never had a glitch of any kind, never a sign of clipping, and never a protection circuit activation.
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post #652 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post
That is a funny line!!
One more question - is there an amp off setting in the 747 when using it as a pre/pro?
There is no "amp off" button on any receiver I know off. It isn't really needed because the amps respond to gain (input voltage) versus load (speakers). No speakers hooked up = no load so no response from the amps. They are effectively off.
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post #653 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:20 PM
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Hi Marty. Regarding clipping. My Old 773 had a soft clipping switch. I can't find this on the 747. Does this mean the 747 has "NAD proprietry soft clipping" always turned on?

Cheers

Wap
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post #654 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:31 PM
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Guys what does EARS actually do? If you are feeding a 5.1 signal into the NAD, does it simply mix the surround channels into the rears, or does it mix up everything again? I'm still looking for a blu ray that has a discrete 7.1 soundtrack to test my rear setup but can't find one LOL !

Also there is no little "red light up" on this receiver's front display when say a Dolby True HD track comes on (like my Integra) How can I confirm I am feeding the 747 bitstream...?

Thanks again

Wap
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post #655 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wappinghigh View Post
Hi Marty. Regarding clipping. My Old 773 had a soft clipping switch. I can't find this on the 747. Does this mean the 747 has "NAD proprietry soft clipping" always turned on?

Cheers

Wap
No specific mention of "soft clipping" circuitry in any of the 747 material or reviews. It is found in all NAD amps and some receivers like the 754 of which the 747 shares a number of parts and the design layout. I can only assume that the 747 does not have the soft clipping circuitry since when present it is usually "defeat able" with a switch. It also usually goes along with "Power-Drive" technology (used to be called Power Envelope back in the day) which the 747 has a version of but not the official Power-Drive technology. If it is present, it would always be "on" and should be part of the protection circuitry.
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post #656 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wappinghigh View Post
Guys what does EARS actually do? If you are feeding a 5.1 signal into the NAD, does it simply mix the surround channels into the rears, or does it mix up everything again? I'm still looking for a blu ray that has a discrete 7.1 soundtrack to test my rear setup but can't find one LOL !

Also there is no little "red light up" on this receiver's front display when say a Dolby True HD track comes on (like my Integra) How can I confirm I am feeding the 747 bitstream...?

Thanks again

Wap
Can't answer the EARS question as I don't particularly like it so I never explored further. As for the "red light" question, my front display says "Dolby TrueHD" or "DTS HD" when playing a movie from my BR player or media server (assuming that's the audio track being streamed).
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post #657 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 02:52 PM
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You can choose what you want to display on the front panel from the setup screens. You can even put this as part of a preset. I think ears is only for 2 channel sound. It takes 2 channel and extends it to other speakers.
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post #658 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 03:33 PM
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Ok. Thanks. So what do you guys use to get full use of the rear speakers, when you are playing a 5.1 track (which 99.9%) of movies STILL have? I used to use Matrix 7.1 on the 773, but it seems to have been dropped off the 774....
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post #659 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Marty913

No specific mention of "soft clipping" circuitry in any of the 747 material or reviews. It is found in all NAD amps and some receivers like the 754 of which the 747 shares a number of parts and the design layout. I can only assume that the 747 does not have the soft clipping circuitry since when present it is usually "defeat able" with a switch. It also usually goes along with "Power-Drive" technology (used to be called Power Envelope back in the day) which the 747 has a version of but not the official Power-Drive technology. If it is present, it would always be "on" and should be part of the protection circuitry.
My T744 has it too. This might be a question to post in nads Facebook page.
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post #660 of 1655 Old 04-19-2011, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wappinghigh
Ok. Thanks. So what do you guys use to get full use of the rear speakers, when you are playing a 5.1 track (which 99.9%) of movies STILL have? I used to use Matrix 7.1 on the 773, but it seems to have been dropped off the 774....
How about Dolby pl iix.
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