Anthem MRX Receivers - 300, 500, 700 Owners Thread & Tweaking Guide - Page 189 - AVS Forum
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post #5641 of 16559 Old 07-05-2011, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobAd View Post

Could also be you're getting swamped by "slap echo", which I have found is hard for equalization electronics to rectify. What are your room dimensions (including ceiling height)? Do you have 2 dimensions that are similar in length? Do you have lots of windows? Can you repost your curves? - I can't find them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5234

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post #5642 of 16559 Old 07-05-2011, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobAd View Post

Could also be you're getting swamped by "slap echo", which I have found is hard for equalization electronics to rectify. What are your room dimensions (including ceiling height)? Do you have 2 dimensions that are similar in length? Do you have lots of windows? Can you repost your curves? - I can't find them.

eric-t resposted my curves in the post above this.

Don't think I have slap echo.

My room dimensions are approx. 29 x 13 with an 8 foot ceiling. My L and R speakers are 9 feet apart on the short wall. My main seating position is approx. 12 feet from the screen. No windows in the room.
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post #5643 of 16559 Old 07-05-2011, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Screen Shot View Post

At times I "think" I hear a slight difference, possibly tighter mid-bass. However, it is so slight I may just be hearing this because I want to hear a difference.

Is there anyone that has a "decent" room for acoustics to start with - that hears much of a difference? Maybe ARC is just for horribly sounding rooms to start with? If that is the case I would assume money would be better spent on room treatments versus electronic processing.

Or possibly my Anthem ARC is not working. I guess the only way to know for sure would be to borrow another MRX, set it up, and compare. Lots of work.

The goal of ARC is to correct things either your room is causing, or that the speakers you have are poor at.

If you have really good speakers, which under ideal conditions are "near perfect" than the main thing you can hope to gain from ARC will be correction of your room.

If your room is near perfect, the corrections that ARC is going to make will not be as significant and that is a good thing! We don't want to go changing something that isn't broken in the first place!


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Originally Posted by jayray View Post

Your speaker measurement curve (red) is quite good so ARC didn't have to do much. This is a good thing. However ARC has allowed you to see where your sub needs help and that is from 100-50 Hz. Move it around because you are losing some good pounding effects in movies. The dip is too hard for ARC to correct so you have to help it by moving the sub until the measured curve rises in that freq. range. You'll be amazed at the impact this will have during movies. When you find the best spot the target window will likely show Sub cutoff at 120Hz.
John

As Jayray pointed out, in a post only a few after yours... your measured curve (the red line) is really pretty good! The measure line of course is what ARC hears without doing any correction. Does this mean that ARC did nothing, of course not... it just means that the changes it made will not be really hyper obvious unless you have really exceptional hearing that has been trained more to hear the subtle differences. (I'm not blaming the inability to hear the difference on your "old ears" but rather saying that the differences are more subtle than often seen and therefore will probably only be really noticable to someone with exceptional hearing... which for the record is not me, but I do have a good friend that would notice... and yes you can put him in a blind listening test and he will be correct, one amazing ear on that guy.)

What Jayray did suggest is that your sub is lacking. It had a big spike that should have made things at a certain frequency seem really boomy, ARC helped correct that. However it cannot make up the places where your sub simply is not performing. I don't know if you were able to improve on the sub after this comment... I don't have the time to re-read everything, but that is where you should be focusing your efforts at the moment if you have not corrected it.

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Originally Posted by Screen Shot View Post

eric-t resposted my curves in the post above this.

Don't think I have slap echo.

My room dimensions are approx. 29 x 13 with an 8 foot ceiling. My L and R speakers are 9 feet apart on the short wall. My main seating position is approx. 12 feet from the screen. No windows in the room.

I think you are hoping that ARC will somehow fix the hole in your bass, this ARC cannot do, no room correction can do that... you need to fix your sub first.

After that, enjoy that your room and speakers are pretty good to start with!

Also, even though I don't have a perfect ear like some... I did find that I could simply listen to music and movies for a lot longer without any sort of fatigue. Before I bought the MRX, I didn't have a clue what that statment meant, but now that I have it, somehow I can just listen for hours without even noticing I've been sitting there and often at louder levels than I was comfortable at before (trust me... my neighbors noticed). This is not a simple psych effect, as really I'm not even concentrating on the Music being played... I'm simply relaxing, doing other things and afte a while it is clear that is having a very different impact on me than it used to where after a while I would find myself turning it down or eventually off cause I was "tired of listening". So even though my untrained ears may not hear all the differences, my brain is somehow appreciating them and much more relaxed to what I'm listening to when they are there. Sit and listen a while and you may find the same... Old ears or not

Please, before you ask a question about...
General Information on the MRX Series: See the First post here.
Technical Information including using ARC: See the "FAQ" post here.
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post #5644 of 16559 Old 07-05-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screen Shot View Post


eric-t resposted my curves in the post above this.

Don't think I have slap echo.

My room dimensions are approx. 29 x 13 with an 8 foot ceiling. My L and R speakers are 9 feet apart on the short wall. My main seating position is approx. 12 feet from the screen. No windows in the room.

If you can't change the sub positioning then ARC will not be able to give you the good "kick drum" punch at around the 100Hz region. You'll be underwhelmed by the sound and it won't be ARC's fault. I only got my amazing LFE after repositioning.
John

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post #5645 of 16559 Old 07-05-2011, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screen Shot View Post

At times I "think" I hear a slight difference, possibly tighter mid-bass. However, it is so slight I may just be hearing this because I want to hear a difference.

Is there anyone that has a "decent" room for acoustics to start with - that hears much of a difference? Maybe ARC is just for horribly sounding rooms to start with? If that is the case I would assume money would be better spent on room treatments versus electronic processing.

Or possibly my Anthem ARC is not working. I guess the only way to know for sure would be to borrow another MRX, set it up, and compare. Lots of work.

Without seeing your graphs, and settings, it's hard to know what you are, and aren't, hearing.

Your B&W speakers have a dip in the 2-4kHz range.... you should notice a difference right there (better imaging, etc....)

You intimate that you have a "decent" room. Was it purpose built? What kind of treatments do you have? Did you set it up or was it professionally built?

Not sure what you are looking for, but without any solid information about your gear and your setup (room graphs and settings included) it's hard to pinpoint what you are hearing without being there....
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post #5646 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 07:52 AM
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Rickyboby,

According to Paradigm, the fronts should be slightly toed in. Best way to determine is with stereo playing ( L and R only ) and listening in all critical locations. Adjust toe-in for best imaging for those seats. The non-serious listeners(?) will not care.
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post #5647 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tjg55 View Post

rickyboby,

according to paradigm, the fronts should be slightly toed in. Best way to determine is with stereo playing ( l and r only ) and listening in all critical locations. Adjust toe-in for best imaging for those seats. The non-serious listeners(?) will not care.
Tjg

+1

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post #5648 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJG55 View Post

Rickyboby,

According to Paradigm, the fronts should be slightly toed in. Best way to determine is with stereo playing ( L and R only ) and listening in all critical locations. Adjust toe-in for best imaging for those seats. The non-serious listeners(?) will not care.
TJG

Yes, typically slightly toed in makes sense. However in rickyboby's case, he is a considerable distance from his speakers realative to their own distance appart and he has seating that he is concerned about that is wider than the spacing of his speakers. So for him, simply directing the sound straight out will probably provide the best overall sound quality for all of his seating positions and as his primary seating position (the one you would aim for with the toed in arrangement) is over 8.5 feet out and his speakers are only 8.5 feet appart, you are looking at an angle of less than about 25 degrees. Tweeters are highly directional, but a good tweeter should be able to perform exceptionaly well at less than 25 degrees.

I think it is well worth rickyboby trying the non toed or partially toed solution for his specific seating environment. Considering the very shallow angle to his primary seating possition from speakers that are not toed at all, I don't think he is going to notice a big difference in his primary seating position, if any at all. And he may gain considerably for his chairs that are at the extreems by not imposing a far greater than 25 degree angle from the listening position.

Of course that having been said, the reduced angle will only be for the near speaker, the speaker on the opposit diagonal from the one of the extreem wide seating positions will suffer a little from the far channel as that angle will be increased for that speaker. Again considering the distance, the loss is probably not as significant, but would be worth listening to some stereo recordings to see if the far channel is greatly impacted beyond what it was when it was toed in.

It should be an interesting experiment to at least try for his unique seating arrangment.

Please, before you ask a question about...
General Information on the MRX Series: See the First post here.
Technical Information including using ARC: See the "FAQ" post here.
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post #5649 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 10:57 AM
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Has Anthem ever addressed the digital anomalies uncovered in the Sound and Vision test bench measurements of the MRX 700?

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The oddities encompassed our unique tests of digital-to-analog linearity and noise modulation, which examine D/A behavior at exceedingly low signal levels, and an oddity of 96-kHz/24-bit playback. Taking the latter first: On a stereo 96/24 frequency-response sweep, the Anthem's output remained perfectly flat to roughly 5 kHz, beyond which point it rolled off at about 2 dB per octave, reaching -6 dB at 32 kHz, where output essentially disappeared. I'm completely at a loss to explain this anomaly. Returning to the low-level stuff, the MRX's D/A linearity showed virtually perfect response to signal levels as low as -80 dB (re: 0 dB full-scale), but was 6 dB negative (too small) at -90 and unlockable at -100, which suggests a least-significant-bit flaw, or a math error at some point in the conversion or resampling processes. S/N on both PCM and Dolby Digital signals also measured about a decibel too quiet, which tends to support this idea. On the same track, our noise mod test, which requires the converters to track a midfrequency tone that repeatedly sweeps amplitude between very low and very, very, very low signal levels, failed to execute fully since the receiver would not resolve the 251-Hz tone over its full level sweep, which extends well below -100 dBFS. Noise mod results above that point looked fairly good, though obviously incomplete.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...-av-receiver-1

AJ
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post #5650 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Has Anthem ever addressed the digital anomalies uncovered in the Sound and Vision test bench measurements of the MRX 700?



http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...-av-receiver-1

AJ

Yes, they determined it was the result of jealous trolls who don't own their product but can't stand that others are enjoying them.
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post #5651 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 11:48 AM
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Yes, they determined it was the result of jealous trolls who don't own their product but can't stand that others are enjoying them.

According to a review, a product exhibits a notable anomaly. There is nothing wrong with asking if the manufacturer has addressed that supposed flaw. For example, it could be nothing more than a problem with the review sample or an error in DSP code that could be corrected with a firmware update. The manufacturer might even claim that problem lies with the test equipment, not the component. Regardless, the situation deserves to be addressed and, potentially, resolved.

Now, if you own that product and choose to stick your head in the sand about the reported issue, then that is your business. But you appear highly insecure when you try to belittle discussion about a legitimate concern.

(And look up the word "jealous." You are using it incorrectly).



AJ
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post #5652 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 12:01 PM
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Just ignore him. You get this at times on the internet.
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post #5653 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 12:12 PM
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Just ignore him. You get this at times on the internet.

"Ignore" technical discussion on an AV science forum??? Please, lorenzzo, keep your ignorance to yourself.

If the MRX 700 cannot muster better than 14 bit equivalent performance with 24 bit 96 kHz audio, then that is a shortcoming more than worthy of discussion. For example, is it an intentional design choice or an unexpected flaw?

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post #5654 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 12:35 PM
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I am expecting to get MRX 700 and Sub 15 (Paradigm). What is the order of correction?

Do I need to do ARC first on MRX 700 using keyspan adapter and then PBK(I think this is the name) on Sub 15?
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post #5655 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 12:42 PM
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Run ARC Quick Measure first, finding the best position for the S15. THEN, run PBK. THEN, run ARC.
TJG
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post #5656 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJG55 View Post

Run ARC Quick Measure first, finding the best position for the S15. THEN, run PBK. THEN, run ARC.
TJG

Thanks for the quick reply. I just talked to Paradigm support and they said by just running ARC itself corrects 99%. I will test it first until I get PBK kit.

I was also told ADP 590 speakers should be placed at least 5 feet high but below 8 feet and also they should be 2 to 3 feet below ceiling. I need to check if I can place them to suit these limits. If it is not possible, does ARC corrects?
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post #5657 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukumar View Post

I am expecting to get MRX 700 and Sub 15 (Paradigm). What is the order of correction?

Do I need to do ARC first on MRX 700 using keyspan adapter and then PBK(I think this is the name) on Sub 15?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJG55 View Post

Run ARC Quick Measure first, finding the best position for the S15. THEN, run PBK. THEN, run ARC.
TJG

+1

Also see the second post in the this thread on the first page, it is a great "FAQ" post which outlines many similar questions that you will find very helpful.

Please, before you ask a question about...
General Information on the MRX Series: See the First post here.
Technical Information including using ARC: See the "FAQ" post here.
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post #5658 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Has Anthem ever addressed the digital anomalies uncovered in the Sound and Vision test bench measurements of the MRX 700?

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...-av-receiver-1

AJ

Does anyone has an answer to this question?
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post #5659 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukumar View Post

Thanks for the quick reply. I just talked to Paradigm support and they said by just running ARC itself corrects 99%. I will test it first until I get PBK kit.

I was also told ADP 590 speakers should be placed at least 5 feet high but below 8 feet and also they should be 2 to 3 feet below ceiling. I need to check if I can place them to suit these limits. If it is not possible, does ARC corrects?

If you haven't purchase the PBK kit, I would save your money and see if ARC alone is able to smooth things out. If you need to do a lot of correction to your sub, than the combination of PBK and ARC may be a winner!

As for speaker placement, in most real world scenerios (unless you have a custom designed theater/listening room) you will never be able to place your speakers in the perfect location... however the closer you can get, the better. ARC will do the best it can with what ever location you end up with... of course if things are really bad ARC can only do so much.

Starting with your most optimal speaker location (in your environment) is of course key!

Please, before you ask a question about...
General Information on the MRX Series: See the First post here.
Technical Information including using ARC: See the "FAQ" post here.
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post #5660 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigger! View Post

If you haven't purchase the PBK kit, I would save your money and see if ARC alone is able to smooth things out. If you need to do a lot of correction to your sub, than the combination of PBK and ARC may be a winner!

As for speaker placement, in most real world scenarios (unless you have a custom designed theater/listening room) you will never be able to place your speakers in the perfect location... however the closer you can get, the better. ARC will do the best it can with what ever location you end up with... of course if things are really bad ARC can only do so much.

Starting with your most optimal speaker location (in your environment) is of course key!

Good to know that I can try with ARC. I enjoy reading your posts.

How do you test side rear speakers with various heights. I don't think I need to make holes at different heights for placement at various positions.

I have to place speakers on these walls.



Second wall


Do you think if speakers are placed in the middle of the wall, draperies will absorb sound and I don't hear much? If ARC can correct, I will place these in the middle of the wall. I was told they can't be placed close to ceiling. It is bothering me. Appreciate any input.
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T
At the new reduced price of $99, I would think it would be a great purchase in any case.
TJG
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post #5662 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Has Anthem ever addressed the digital anomalies uncovered in the Sound and Vision test bench measurements of the MRX 700?



http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...-av-receiver-1

AJ

AJ,

I think this may have been the bug that was fixed in the .04 firmware release (50.04 for the MRX 500) whereby it would lose the signal between CD tracks. The 5kHz anomaly may be related to where ARC cuts off?????? I am not sure as they don't mention in that URL if they did the measurements with ARC on.

Cheers.

Tony
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post #5663 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

AJ,

I think this may have been the bug that was fixed in the .04 firmware release (50.04 for the MRX 500) whereby it would lose the signal between CD tracks. The 5kHz anomaly may be related to where ARC cuts off?????? I am not sure as they don't mention in that URL if the did the measurements with ARC on.

Cheers.

Tony

I can't remember which review I read a couple months ago, but he mentioned he liked ARC off better for music. You have to wonder about some of the reviewers as they do not test the product correctly or fully. It's like test driving a Porsche and then say it handles poorly but come to find out he only drove it two blocks.
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post #5664 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 06:07 PM
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Or he was driving it a at 60mph instead of 160mph as he should.

People who don't own the equipment and critique it are.....I will stop there.
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post #5665 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukumar View Post

Good to know that I can try with ARC. I enjoy reading your posts.

How do you test side rear speakers with various heights. I don't think I need to make holes at different heights for placement at various positions.

I have to place speakers on these walls.



Second wall


Do you think if speakers are placed in the middle of the wall, draperies will absorb sound and I don't hear much? If ARC can correct, I will place these in the middle of the wall. I was told they can't be placed close to ceiling. It is bothering me. Appreciate any input.

Thanks! I've learned a lot from contributions others have made and so I try to contribute back when I can

Speaker placement is an art... and I would be missleading to suggest I had a lot of specific experience doing it. So hopefully a few others will come to your plight...

What type of speakers are you mounting? Are these 5.1 surround speakers you are hanging, or part of a 7.1 system? I'm assuming as you showed two walls that these are not the rear presence speakers for 7.1.

Is the couch in its final resting place? Or does it get pulled forward slighty? Where does the couch sit in relation to the door?

It looks like you have a normal ceiling height of about 8 feet? My first instinct would be to put the speakers about 2.5 -3 feet down from the ceiling. And about 4 feet from the back wall (basically tight to the door frame and tight to the draperies... but again, I'm hoping someone with more surround sound speaker placement experience will chime in!

As for the draperies, the ones I see in the picture are not likely to do to much, especially to your bass. They may help reduce some reflections for higher frequencies, but I don't think they are going to take to much away from your over all listening experiences. In fact it looks like besides the carpet that you don't have much in the room to absorb sounds, so the curtains may be helping to tame the room a bit. Does the room sound echoey (is that a word?) or loud/boomy today?

Please, before you ask a question about...
General Information on the MRX Series: See the First post here.
Technical Information including using ARC: See the "FAQ" post here.
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post #5666 of 16559 Old 07-06-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Has Anthem ever addressed the digital anomalies uncovered in the Sound and Vision test bench measurements of the MRX 700?



http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...-av-receiver-1

AJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

Does anyone has an answer to this question?

Don't recall reading any response to this... perhaps someone should write Anthem and ask the question directly of them... and then post up the response and share with the rest of us!

Please, before you ask a question about...
General Information on the MRX Series: See the First post here.
Technical Information including using ARC: See the "FAQ" post here.
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post #5667 of 16559 Old 07-07-2011, 12:38 AM
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Don't recall reading any response to this... perhaps someone should write Anthem and ask the question directly of them... and then post up the response and share with the rest of us!

I just did that!
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post #5668 of 16559 Old 07-07-2011, 02:53 AM
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Thanks! I've learned a lot from contributions others have made and so I try to contribute back when I can

Speaker placement is an art... and I would be missleading to suggest I had a lot of specific experience doing it. So hopefully a few others will come to your plight...

What type of speakers are you mounting? Are these 5.1 surround speakers you are hanging, or part of a 7.1 system? I'm assuming as you showed two walls that these are not the rear presence speakers for 7.1.

Is the couch in its final resting place? Or does it get pulled forward slighty? Where does the couch sit in relation to the door?

It looks like you have a normal ceiling height of about 8 feet? My first instinct would be to put the speakers about 2.5 -3 feet down from the ceiling. And about 4 feet from the back wall (basically tight to the door frame and tight to the draperies... but again, I'm hoping someone with more surround sound speaker placement experience will chime in!

As for the draperies, the ones I see in the picture are not likely to do to much, especially to your bass. They may help reduce some reflections for higher frequencies, but I don't think they are going to take to much away from your over all listening experiences. In fact it looks like besides the carpet that you don't have much in the room to absorb sounds, so the curtains may be helping to tame the room a bit. Does the room sound echoey (is that a word?) or loud/boomy today?

I am setting up 5.1 speakers until I am ready to add one more set of ADP 590. These are two expensive to add it now for my budget. I just got Paradigm Sub 15 and MRX 700. I need to setup this weekend.

My ceiling is 9 foot vaulted, so it is 8 feet wall. I intend to move sofas little back to add one more set in future. If it is the case, I guess side rear surrounds has to be little front of back row seat since door limits how far back I can place them. I heard side rears should be little back of sofa.

As you suggested, I will test placing them from 2.5 feet from ceiling (8-2.5=6.5 high from floor) and see how is the response.

ADP concept is not direct sound and it is diffused sound. I am never able to understand how diffusion can happen if the speaker is facing draperies. I think drivers are on each side of ADP 590 (One pointing to wall and other to curtains) and one more bass driver at the front.

Not sure what I can use for temporary placement of these speakers at various heights to test to find right height.

Thanks for quick reply. I am excited to receive all 5.1 with mrx 700 to test for watching movies.
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post #5669 of 16559 Old 07-07-2011, 04:16 AM
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Good to know that I can try with ARC. I enjoy reading your posts.

How do you test side rear speakers with various heights. I don't think I need to make holes at different heights for placement at various positions.

I have to place speakers on these walls.



Second wall


Do you think if speakers are placed in the middle of the wall, draperies will absorb sound and I don't hear much? If ARC can correct, I will place these in the middle of the wall. I was told they can't be placed close to ceiling. It is bothering me. Appreciate any input.

I think a good starting point is to finalize your seating position which based on your picture is the couch. Sit on the couch and see where your ears line up with the side walls. Then go to that spot and measure 2' up from where your ears line up with the side wall and that will be the location of where the tweeter on your surround speakers should be position. You can place the surrounds a little behind you if you desire but not too much. I would start there with the side surrounds to see how you like it. I would not place them too close to the ceiling because you might start getting reflections from the ceiling. I think this will be a good starting point and you can make adjustments from there if you need to. Good Luck to you!!!!!
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post #5670 of 16559 Old 07-07-2011, 04:17 AM
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I just did that!

Can you post with Anthem's answer.
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