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post #31 of 54 Old 06-12-2013, 07:57 AM
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Hmm... Is there still no words on receivers with build in amps for all 11 channels at the same time?????
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post #32 of 54 Old 06-12-2013, 10:29 AM
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^ no, and I doubt you'll see one anytime soon, and certainly not much below a flagship product. The market is simply tiny for them. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised by the existence (albeit a slight number, but available) 9 channel powered models, as they too are very niche and MOST that are willing (or able wink.gif ) to place 9 speakers in their room almost certainly pop for external amplifiers as well, most times. Just see AVS.

And after all, we ALL know external amps sound better anyway, right? wink.gif

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post #33 of 54 Old 06-12-2013, 10:36 AM
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I know - own Sunfire 7-400 signature :-). But a one box solution would be nice in the highend like Denon used to have....
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post #34 of 54 Old 06-12-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ no, and I doubt you'll see one anytime soon, and certainly not much below a flagship product. The market is simply tiny for them. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised by the existence (albeit a slight number, but available) 9 channel powered models, as they too are very niche and MOST that are willing (or able wink.gif ) to place 9 speakers in their room almost certainly pop for external amplifiers as well, most times. Just see AVS. And after all, we ALL know external amps sound better anyway, right? wink.gif James

Agreed.

Also, there will probably continue to be only a very small market for the high-end Home Theater pre|pro supporting up to 12.4|13.3|14.2|15.1|16.0 (or even 22.2|23.1) channel output (which looks to have better chance of at least 'appearing' more cost effective if HDMI 2.0 does in fact deliver 16 or 24 multi channel LPCM transport) . . . and such products will likely further erode the potential market for (say) 11.2 full-amped AVRs...

Plus from a personal viewpoint, and as I have already posted elsewhere...
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After owning four generations of Yamaha processors and 7.1 AVRs, and wishing throughout that 9.x might become "mid-range priced", my desires have moved on to "somewhat more grandiose" . . . and I now cast forth envious (but yet still cash poor!) eyes towards a future evolution of something like the ILLUSONIC Immersive Audio Processor 15.1 pre|pro (link).

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post #35 of 54 Old 06-12-2013, 01:59 PM
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Hmm... Is there still no words on receivers with build in amps for all 11 channels at the same time?????

Not to my knowledge. That said, I just got my Denon 4520 installed with 9.1 channels ( I went with wide speakers to start ). I'm going to add a 2 channel amp ( Emotiva has a 2 channel 150 watt amp on sale just FYI ) and height speakers for a total of 11.1 . So far, I love the 9.1 with Neo:X - Black Hawk Down totally rocked. Has to be even better with 11.2 !! Maybe I'll add another SVS sub, but my theater has plenty of LFE action now from one cylinder sub. smile.gif

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post #36 of 54 Old 06-12-2013, 02:18 PM
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One advantage of being old is that I've had at least two 6.x and|or 7.x speaker surround systems running simultaneously since about 1990, and I built my first two surround systems entirely using separates. I own 4 two-channel main amps and 2 four-channel surround amps (total 16 channels) that have been running on-and-off now for about 25 years, before I even start counting various AVRs and a few self powered speakers! In fact I would rather buy only pre|pros (or AVRs with pre-outs for all|most channels) from this point on...
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post #37 of 54 Old 06-13-2013, 06:12 PM
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I'm also on the lookout for 11.2, but will wait until HDMI 2.0 comes out. So probably next year.

It'd be nice to have all 11 channel amps built in, but it would likely make it too heavy and expensive.

It would probably be cheaper to do 7 amps, provide support for 11 channel processing and then add an external amp for the other 4 channels.
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post #38 of 54 Old 06-14-2013, 09:38 AM
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Given the likely small size of the market for 11.x AVRs (with any of 7, 9, or 11 amps on-board), I would think the better strategy for CEMs might be to sell models whose processors support selection from all three 'obvious' 11.x speaker configurations as a part of system setup:

  • 7.1 Standard plus Front Height and Front Wide speaker pairs
  • 7.1 Standard plus Front Height and Rear Height speaker pairs
  • 5.1 Standard plus Front Height, Rear Height and Front Wide speaker pairs
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post #39 of 54 Old 06-14-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

I'm also on the lookout for 11.2, but will wait until HDMI 2.0 comes out. So probably next year. It'd be nice to have all 11 channel amps built in, but it would likely make it too heavy and expensive. It would probably be cheaper to do 7 amps, provide support for 11 channel processing and then add an external amp for the other 4 channels.



Fortunately I've saved two Yamaha M-35 4x20W|2x40W surround power amps (purchased around 1990) for just such an occasion! biggrin.gif
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post #40 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 01:07 AM
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Fortunately I've saved two Yamaha M-35 4x20W|2x40W surround power amps (purchased around 1990) for just such an occasion! biggrin.gif
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40W doesn't sound (no pun intended) like a lot. Have you tested it, objectively or subjectively, to see how it compares to amps on today's AVR's?
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post #41 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 06:45 AM
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The one trend that is obvious the more channels of amplification they cram into a box the weaker the amps but I guess it goes well with throwing up a bunch of none voice matched cheap speakers all over the room.
Its like the AV industry has embraced quantity over quality and I for one miss the days of the 7.1 flagships that had amp sections that could almost drive a drill motor instead of the HTIB minus speakers we have now.
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post #42 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Fortunately I've saved two Yamaha M-35 4x20W|2x40W surround power amps (purchased around 1990) for just such an occasion! biggrin.gif
_
Holy mackeral, I have the same number of those same amps (used for my first 7.1 set-up in 1991). In my case, one of those amps is silver and one is black (both were on close-out at the local RogerSoundLabs outlet store).

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post #43 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 09:53 AM
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The one trend that is obvious the more channels of amplification they cram into a box the weaker the amps but I guess it goes well with throwing up a bunch of none voice matched cheap speakers all over the room.
You're starting from a false premise that the speakers will not be voice matched for some reason. If subwoofers are going to be used to reproduce the low frequencies, then small bookshelf speakers can be used to reproduce content above the crossover point. Small bookshelf speakers need not be expensive, so the same speaker model can be used all the way around (voice matching becomes more affordable, not less). Since the subwoofers will have their own built-in amps and the speakers won't need to reproduce low frequencies, the 11 amps in the receiver need not be very powerful. And if those amps are digital, then heat becomes even less of an issue.
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Its like the AV industry has embraced quantity over quality and I for one miss the days of the 7.1 flagships that had amp sections that could almost drive a drill motor instead of the HTIB minus speakers we have now.
Rather than lament for those days, buy an outboard amp with as much power as you want. Pair that with a pre-pro or a receiver with pre-outs and you'll be able to drive all the drill motors you want. As for the quantity-over-quality argument, I've heard that when 2.0 went 5.1, when 5.1 went 7.1, etc. Everyone has a line they draw in the sand when it comes to max number of speakers; everything up to that point was quality, anything above that point is quantity. Thankfully the industry doesn't think that way, otherwise we would never have gone from mono to stereo and stereo to surround.
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post #44 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post



Fortunately I've saved two Yamaha M-35 4x20W|2x40W surround power amps (purchased around 1990) for just such an occasion! biggrin.gif

40W doesn't sound (no pun intended) like a lot. Have you tested it, objectively or subjectively, to see how it compares to amps on today's AVR's?

No objective testing, but a couple of years ago I did use one Yamaha M-35 surround amp running in 2x 40W mode to "acceptance test" a pair of Polk R50 floorstanding speakers I was considering for use as either rear surrounds or front wides, by temporarily swapping the R50s for the usual L|R front main speaker pair in one system. As my systems all use active L|R front main pairs, I added the M-35 to drive the R50s . . . plus I had to tweak the system's crossover point and bass volume settings to accommodate the more limited bass range the R50s can deliver. I used DVDs of "Wanted" and "Master and Commander" for the test.

The Polk R50s could not match the smooth power delivery and clarity present in the either the Yamaha AST-S1 active speaker pair I normally use or the Klipsch XF-48 active speaker pair I had recently tested on the same system . . . but I never got any sense that the M-35 amp's power handling was a limiting factor at any volume I might consider for home listening. biggrin.gif

As we move toward home theater systems with potentially 4|6|8 or more height speakers, I'm not sure that we need to provide each one with the same power delivery capabilities as the front L|C|R speakers...?! cool.gif

For example: This 22.x(?) speaker config in use for the NHK-JEITA SHV TV exhibit at CEATEC Japan 2012 last October (apparently a DSP processing variation from the nominal Hamasaki 22.x layout required to compensate for use of a direct view display . . . and the missing ceiling!) looks like it contains 10 height speakers . . . 8 "standard" plus 2 more "non-standard" added just to support dialog lift processing. eek.gif


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post #45 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 01:28 PM
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You're starting from a false premise that the speakers will not be voice matched for some reason. If subwoofers are going to be used to reproduce the low frequencies, then small bookshelf speakers can be used to reproduce content above the crossover point. Small bookshelf speakers need not be expensive, so the same speaker model can be used all the way around (voice matching becomes more affordable, not less). Since the subwoofers will have their own built-in amps and the speakers won't need to reproduce low frequencies, the 11 amps in the receiver need not be very powerful. And if those amps are digital, then heat becomes even less of an issue.
Rather than lament for those days, buy an outboard amp with as much power as you want. Pair that with a pre-pro or a receiver with pre-outs and you'll be able to drive all the drill motors you want. As for the quantity-over-quality argument, I've heard that when 2.0 went 5.1, when 5.1 went 7.1, etc. Everyone has a line they draw in the sand when it comes to max number of speakers; everything up to that point was quality, anything above that point is quantity. Thankfully the industry doesn't think that way, otherwise we would never have gone from mono to stereo and stereo to surround.
There is a big difference between 2.0 ,5.1 and 7.1 in the fact there are sources and equipment to extract those discreet channels of information and not the sudo surround we had when 5.1 was in its infancy with matrix decoding.
The idea behind most AVR's is a one box solution for those of us with space limitations or we would all be running pre-pros with external amps.that wanted descent power.
I have heard a couple of set-ups with 11.2 that added speakers from a different model line than the front three and it is noticeable change instead of a blend which had they been voice matched doubt i would have noticed.
From an installers point of view its like pulling teeth to get 90% of our customer base to move from 5.1 to 7.1 as most want a powered zone 2 and 3 but doubt I will live long enough to see widespread adoption of 11.2 in the real world.
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post #46 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 04:36 PM
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There is a big difference between 2.0 ,5.1 and 7.1 in the fact there are sources and equipment to extract those discreet channels of information and not the sudo surround we had when 5.1 was in its infancy with matrix decoding.
There's no "big difference". The number of discrete channels in the source material has nothing to do with the number of speakers used for playback. That's a mindset of people new to surround who don't realize that the first 25 years of consumer surround sound was all matrix derived. Consumer 7.1 pre-pros were selling almost a decade before there was any discrete multi-channel material available. Do you think consumers were buying those 7.1 pre-pros waiting for 7.1 material to show up 20 years later? Likewise, people buying 11.2 receivers aren't doing so with discrete 11.2-channel material in mind, since there isn't any.
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The idea behind most AVR's is a one box solution for those of us with space limitations or we would all be running pre-pros with external amps.that wanted descent power.
Space limitation is your problem, not everyone else's. Just because you are forced to choose between more channels vs limited space vs enough power to drive a drill, it doesn't mean manufacturers have to work within your limitations. Modern 9-channel receivers provide ample power to drive most consumer speakers in a typical bass managed set-up. The one box solution already exists. If it doesn't have the amount of power you want in the space you want, then that's a problem for you, not receiver manufacturers.
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From an installers point of view its like pulling teeth to get 90% of our customer base to move from 5.1 to 7.1 as most want a powered zone 2 and 3 but doubt I will live long enough to see widespread adoption of 11.2 in the real world.
Other way 'round. IF you truly believed that 11.2 isn't going to be adopted, then you wouldn't have posted your concerns about the industry going for quantity over quality. The only reason to feel that way is if you think more channels are going to be adopted.

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post #47 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 07:53 PM
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There's no "big difference". The number of discrete channels in the source material has nothing to do with the number of speakers used for playback. That's a mindset of people new to surround who don't realize that the first 25 years of consumer surround sound was all matrix derived. Consumer 7.1 pre-pros were selling almost a decade before there was any discrete multi-channel material available. Do you think consumers were buying those 7.1 pre-pros waiting for 7.1 material to show up 20 years later? Likewise, people buying 11.2 receivers aren't doing so with discrete 11.2-channel material in mind, since there isn't any.
Space limitation is your problem, not everyone else's. Just because you are forced to choose between more channels vs limited space vs enough power to drive a drill, it doesn't mean manufacturers have to work within your limitations. Modern 9-channel receivers provide ample power to drive most consumer speakers in a typical bass managed set-up. The one box solution already exists. If it doesn't have the amount of power you want in the space you want, then that's a problem for you, not receiver manufacturers.
Other way 'round. IF you truly believed that 11.2 isn't going to be adopted, then you wouldn't have posted your concerns about the industry going for quantity over quality. The only reason to feel that way is if you think more channels are going to be adopted.
Well then I hope their sales keep them afloat because the industry is hurting and while they produce certain niche products the masses are not purchasing them ,ask any installer its not easy to get people to purchase an item when the first word out of their mouth is I will never use it and yes I am an installer and will put in any thing or brand the client wishes.
I have read a great deal of your post and most of the time respect your opinion but you seem to think this is a direct attack on me trust me outside these forums its a different world and what people are buying in numbers are not what floats everyones boat on a forum.
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post #48 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 09:15 PM
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I have read a great deal of your post and most of the time respect your opinion but you seem to think this is a direct attack on me trust me outside these forums its a different world and what people are buying in numbers are not what floats everyones boat on a forum.
I have no reason to attack you since I don't know you (aside from forum posts).

If consumers don't want more channels, then manufactures will not go beyond 9.2 receivers. The market will decide, irrespective of how you or I feel. Though I do think the current trend will continue, especially if Dolby licenses Atmos for home use.

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post #49 of 54 Old 06-25-2013, 11:24 PM
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I think it will stick around, though not in discrete channel formats. That is getting to cost prohibitive w/ adding speakers and amps in the AVRs.

It will likely be ATMOS and whatever competition Dolby will have.

The end user can decide what they can afford, how many speakers/amps they want and how much space is available.

The AVR manufacturers will probably stick w/ 7 or 9 amps, with maybe only flagship products having more.

It would be much cheaper for them to just implement decoding of the sound formats and let some other external amps handle the power.
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post #50 of 54 Old 06-27-2013, 11:20 AM
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Just FYI, I got all 11.1 channels on my Denon 4520 going last night ( using an Emotiva XPA 200 amp for the 2 channels not powered by the Denon ) and using DTS NEO:X, the soundtrack on the movie Looper was absolutely incredible ! My friends that came over to watch it all commented that the sound in my theater is better than it's ever been ! So 11.1 is going to stick around in my theater - that's for sure! smile.gif

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Just FYI, I got all 11.1 channels on my Denon 4520 going last night ( using an Emotiva XPA 200 amp for the 2 channels not powered by the Denon ) and using DTS NEO:X, the soundtrack on the movie Looper was absolutely incredible ! My friends that came over to watch it all commented that the sound in my theater is better than it's ever been ! So 11.1 is going to stick around in my theater - that's for sure! smile.gif

It will be interesting to see which Neo:X 11.1 configuration DTS chooses to support in the future: the circa 2011 version with a front wide speaker pair, the one currently appearing on the DTS website (which includes four height speakers, and somewhat resembles the CES 2009 "pre production" configuration) . . . or both...?! cool.gif


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post #52 of 54 Old 06-27-2013, 12:54 PM
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I find the wides do add 3 dimensionality to the front soundstage, at least in my very wide theater. I'm not seeing anything on the DTS website with 4 height speakers though, at least not on the Consumer side of the site.

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post #53 of 54 Old 06-27-2013, 01:05 PM
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I find the wides do add 3 dimensionality to the front soundstage, at least in my very wide theater. I'm not seeing anything on the DTS website with 4 height speakers though, at least not on the Consumer side of the site.

http://www.dts.com/consumers/sound-technology/home-surround-sound.aspx
Choose DTS Neo:X link =>
Choose How It Works tab =>
http://www.dts.com/professionals/sound-technologies/audio-processing/dts-3d-audio.aspx#how-it-works

The 11.1 graphic with four heights and no wides has been on that web page for several months (since shortly after CES 2013)... cool.gif


Annoyingly, I have one system that might work best as 11.1 with a front wide pair, 4 heights, and no Back Left|Right speaker pair! . . . But perhaps someday there will be a receiver that allows me to apply Neo:X front wide processing so as to add front wide speakers to the main layer in an Auro3D 9.1 layout. biggrin.gif
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post #54 of 54 Old 06-28-2013, 12:41 PM
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Just how the home theater speaker configuration advances towards a "somewhat standardized" model with more than 7.1 speakers will probably depend significantly on the discrete multi channel delivery layouts which presently 'seem likely' to be adopted for UHDTV and derivative pre recoded media. However, the two leading countries in the UHDTV provision race appear to be the only ones making those decisions right now--with Japan's NHK pushing for lossless 22.2 (down mixable for less complex speaker layouts), plus the ever popular DD5.1 for backward compatibility, and South Korea's Samsung advocating a 10.2-Channel Vertical Surround System (10.2-VSS), which I believe is 5.2, a side|wide pair, a front height pair, and a center overhead speaker . . . i.e., 'something similar' to the Neo:X variants.

(Corrections in red.)
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[Home Office system schematic]
"My AV systems were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many speakers. And they have . . . A PLAN."

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