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post #181 of 240 Old 02-23-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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That article looks good. I did not have time to do more than skim over it today.

As for power, if it was not clear, amps can out more power than the wall can deliver to some extent. They have a massive bank of caps to hold the voltage which are part of the power supply. And then there's the fact that you can draw more than the rated current from a circuit for a short time.

As for parts quality effecting sound, that's a non trivial topic. I suggest looking at some books written by engineers on amp design. Like Douglas Self. They bust a lot of myths originating from audiohiles not versed in the technical details of amplifiers.

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post #182 of 240 Old 02-26-2013, 06:49 PM
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As for parts quality effecting sound, that's a non trivial topic. I suggest looking at some books written by engineers on amp design. Like Douglas Self. They bust a lot of myths originating from audiohiles not versed in the technical details of amplifiers.

Busting myths is/are the job of engineers. That being said, compare, say a good tube set up to nearly ANY SS set up- same speaker, same sources, same room and the tubes will win- matter of fact Magnepan and MAC did blind testing just as I describe and prove this to be be true. So much for engineer's and their idea of what sounds good. That is akin to believing everything that is advertised on paper is factual- simply not true, yet we are told this is truth, but is it really true? Ask any experienced EE, and they will tell you - go for the tubes (usually).

I appreciate your write up, I really do, it's an interesting topic. However, what simply amazes me is how so many esoteric designers gain so much regard, and yet pro audio gear is some how of lesser quality? Hardly- not even close to the truth. As if an RCA sounds better then an XLR- no way- no matter the distance. Balanced vrs unbalanced- what is the goal of quality audio reproduction? It should be- Balance. Tonality, Timbre and Pace-recreate what was originally intended by the artist, this is what matters for quality audio- but now I feel am ranting. (lest I mention how a recording was mastered to begin with- another topic altogther)

For example, ATI builds amplifiers for many different vendors- including, but not limited to: Outlaw, Sonance, ATI (in house designs) and many others.

Bryston, originally pro audio gear, does this also, yet a 3B/4B ST (same as several Lexicon's amps) have higher review points and the Lexicon's used price bring way less money- yet same amplifier. AB International - pro audio gear, is Cinepro (very highly regarded and very expensive), Great amplifiers I might add. And the list goes on and on.

It's all about advertising hype and what is preferable on a given day- not really factual engineering designs that are equally comparable. Oddly, tubes- good ones, they always sound good, yes, better then their SS counter parts- no matter how they are compared (when compared using the same source's). But they can be a pain to live with, are expensive (now a days) and create a lot of heat- so- SS is a better option for many users. John Curl for example-designs for what? 5 different brands does he design for, heck maybe even more- do any of these sound better or worse then each other; I am sure they do, but again it's build quality (money allowing for higher quality parts ect.) vrs the hype- IMHO. AT a certain point WPC is simply WPC- this is where the pre-amp and source components are so very important.

By way of example, I had one of Halcron's newer digital amps and it was horrible $6700.00 amplifier and it was simply terrible, loud, ok, so what, so is my Harley. But did this amplifier sound better then what I have- not even close- subjective, granted, as is all of audio from a given point of view, but at what point does money stop buying better sound? This is my real point I am trying to get at.

It is so perplexing for most perspective buyers that they have nothing to really use as a point of reference. A paradox for the buyer, and the engineers wonder why high end audio is dying a slow death? Yet, for me, after trial and error, when one desires perfect audio, that this is when you finally realize- perfect audio is not possible, close ..yes, perfect, no way- no matter how much you spend- nothing beats that of live of "you are there", or listening to the actual studio recordings.

Just my 2 cents worth.

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post #183 of 240 Old 02-26-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Hello, nice post, good info, just now read all of it and I find that there are several flaws in what you have written, I do not mean to sound condescending but there are HUGE differences in one manufactures prescribed wpc and that of another, ratings do matter depending upon the company and how said amplifier was tested, ect. I got the sense that your article means all amplified power sounds the same at a given wattage/amperage/voltage- I very much disagree.

That's sorta speaking with a forked tongue.

You can't have same given wattage, current, and voltage yet have different prescribed watts per channel. If so, then someone is lying. In the premise of "all amps sound the same" it is assumed that the ratings are all on a level playing field. If that assumption cannot be made then I doubt anyone would argue about differences.

It's a pretty well known case that some high end manufacturers sand bag ratings to give the appearance of doubling down so inherently those amps will seem more powerful than one honestly rated...because they are more powerful.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #184 of 240 Old 02-26-2013, 07:48 PM
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That's sorta speaking with a forked tongue.

You can't have same given wattage, current, and voltage yet have different prescribed watts per channel. If so, then someone is lying. In the premise of "all amps sound the same" it is assumed that the ratings are all on a level playing field. If that assumption cannot be made then I doubt anyone would argue about differences.

It's a pretty well known case that some high end manufacturers sand bag ratings to give the appearance of doubling down so inherently those amps will seem more powerful than one honestly rated...because they are more powerful.
Yes, exactly, and there-in lies my point, at a certain price/build point WPC ect. is null. It becomes an issue of source and speaker.

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post #185 of 240 Old 02-26-2013, 07:51 PM
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for example, take two amplifiers that measure the same on a test bench- say 100wpc, 20-20k then listen to them on the same sources- totally different sound.

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post #186 of 240 Old 02-27-2013, 10:11 AM
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You will find the majority here disagree with that, on the assumption neither is used beyond its limits and neither is defective. There will be some debate on defective though, because it is arguable if the amp is changing the sound it is defective.

This isn't really an amplifier debate thread though so...

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #187 of 240 Old 02-28-2013, 02:26 PM
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I bought a new amp but I should have thrown out my Power Conditioner smile.gif

I am not sure where to post this interesting tale, but it might be applicable here.

My Power Conditioner made my amp sound lifeless
I recently tried out my Friends Outlaw M2200 mono-blocks and they sounded damn good; Better than my Sunfire 7400.

So I picked a used Outlaw 7500 and plugged it into my Panamax M5300-PM 11 Outlet Clean Power Level 4 .
After a quick test, I felt it sounded like my old amp.

Just to see how much power I was using, I plugged it into a Killo-watt.
The amp sounded a bit life-less with OK bass, but lacking in upper end detail and dynamics.
So I plugged it directly into the wall.
Voilà: it was fantastic.

My Power Conditioner made my amp hum
All is going well, and standing a few feet away I am hearing hum.
I found the power conditioner and the amp's transformers were humming (enough to be heard from my chair).
I moved plugs and unplugged the power condition from my 20 Amp circuit.
Voilà: No more amplifier hum. I mean zero.

I plugged the power conditioner into a different circuit and it hums but it no longer molests my amp.

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post #188 of 240 Old 03-01-2013, 09:55 AM
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Excellent thread and well maintained. I have learned a lot. Thanks! smile.gif

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post #189 of 240 Old 03-04-2013, 06:45 AM
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How to Comparing A/B amps?

So I was looking at A/B class amps recently and it can be a head scratching process.
You can find many amps with similar power output at widely varied pricing.
Some stress Damping Factor and Slew Rate.
When I read about these the analysis indicates that any well designed solid-state amp should exceed the requirements for excellent sound.

So I put those aside.

Then it came down to:

1) Transformer Size
2) Capacitance
3) Output Devices
4) Fully Balanced

However, you can find amps with have the transformer size, capacitance, and output devices with the same power specs with all channels driven.

How can this be? I wasn't sure, so I selected Outlaw since they had better specs and I have heard them before and liked them.

I think it would be worthwhile understanding these specs when evaluating amps.

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post #190 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 07:42 AM
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The maximum output from a 15 amp/120 volt circuit is 1800 watts and 2400 watts if you use the 20 amp/120  volt setup. What most people do not understand is that 
most big amplifiers are limited by the current or voltage draw from the wall power socket. So when manufactures tell you that a specific amplifier can put out 
3000 watts of power that assumes the wall plug can  supply it – a big assumption. biggrin.gif
 
So I have three CA-M600 (1800Watts) + CA-5200 (1000Watts)
 
I am glad I have two dedicated line 20A/120V 
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post #191 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

The maximum output from a 15 amp/120 volt circuit is 1800 watts and 2400 watts if you use the 20 amp/120  
volt setup. 
What most people do not understand is that 

most big amplifiers are limited by the current or voltage draw from the wall power socket. So when manufactures tell you that a specific amplifier can put out 
3000 watts of power that assumes the wall plug can  supply it – a big assumption. 
biggrin.gif

 
So I have three CA-M600 (1800Watts) + CA-5200 (1000Watts)

 

I am glad I have two dedicated line 20A/120V 

This needs some clarification...
Yes, typical USA AC outlets are 15 or 20 amps..
However to trip the circuit breaker, significantly greater continuous amps are required..

To activate the circuit breaker, most AC outlets would need to incur sufficient short-circuit current up to 120 Amps (8x 15A current) to
trigger the circuit breaker... 😳
Note that as the current load increases signficantly the AC line volltage will typically decrease as well..

Bottom line..😊
Since a component power amplifier when playing music is not a continuous current pull but rather a dynamic, changing up & down, the likelhood of triggering the 15A or 20A circuit breaker is quite slim..
Unless the wiring is old, in bad shape...
Or the connected total current load is much higher..

Here is some further substantiation from UL for this subject..
http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/stp/addlinfo/CB_Test_Data.pdf

Just my 💰.... 👍😉
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post #192 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 11:39 AM
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Didn't you mean to say "significantly greater short-term/peak" current is required to trip the breaker?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #193 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Didn't you mean to say "significantly greater short-term/peak" current is required to trip the breaker?

Nope..
The word continuous is the crucial factor which is the length of time, that the higher current (Amps) are being drawn...
The higher, the peak current plays a pertinent part. However as explained, the typical 15A or 20A household, circuit breaker can easily handle significantly, higher peaks such as jumbo power amplifier may draw when playing a high dynamic music source material..
But... When the current draw is longer and extended in time, this is more likely trip the breaker..


Just my 💰.... 👍😉
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post #194 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 01:04 PM
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Yes, typical USA AC outlets are 15 or 20 amps..
However to trip the circuit breaker, significantly greater continuous amps are required..

I completely understand what you're saying...I run near 10kW of pro audio amps out in my garage on one 20A circuit. Clearly this is not ideal and there is no way I could come remotely close to continuous rated output, but it's amazing what peaks you can pull from a 20A circuit.

That said, in the quoted statement, it still seems like it should say signficantly greater short term peak amps are required to trip the breaker, since the point is the high peak demand nature of music vs the continuous capacity of 15-20A circuit.

As in,
Quote:
Yes, typical USA AC outlets are 15 or 20 amps..
However to trip the circuit breaker, significantly greater peak amps are required..

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #195 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 01:56 PM
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Is that why Emotiva recommend 20A lines for each of their beast. XPR-1, Mono-block Reference Power Amplifier, Nothing less than the most
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post #196 of 240 Old 03-30-2013, 04:24 PM
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Running those Emos on an individual 20A circuit for each one is overkill unless you're going to run full power sine wave bench tests with it. It's probably necessary to meet its rated power on the test bench but that's a much more severe duty cycle than listening to movies or music.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #197 of 240 Old 04-19-2013, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Busting myths is/are the job of engineers. That being said, compare, say a good tube set up to nearly ANY SS set up- same speaker, same sources, same room and the tubes will win- matter of fact Magnepan and MAC did blind testing just as I describe and prove this to be be true. So much for engineer's and their idea of what sounds good. That is akin to believing everything that is advertised on paper is factual- simply not true, yet we are told this is truth, but is it really true? Ask any experienced EE, and they will tell you - go for the tubes (usually).

I appreciate your write up, I really do, it's an interesting topic. However, what simply amazes me is how so many esoteric designers gain so much regard, and yet pro audio gear is some how of lesser quality? Hardly- not even close to the truth. As if an RCA sounds better then an XLR- no way- no matter the distance. Balanced vrs unbalanced- what is the goal of quality audio reproduction? It should be- Balance. Tonality, Timbre and Pace-recreate what was originally intended by the artist, this is what matters for quality audio- but now I feel am ranting. (lest I mention how a recording was mastered to begin with- another topic altogther)

For example, ATI builds amplifiers for many different vendors- including, but not limited to: Outlaw, Sonance, ATI (in house designs) and many others.

Bryston, originally pro audio gear, does this also, yet a 3B/4B ST (same as several Lexicon's amps) have higher review points and the Lexicon's used price bring way less money- yet same amplifier. AB International - pro audio gear, is Cinepro (very highly regarded and very expensive), Great amplifiers I might add. And the list goes on and on.

It's all about advertising hype and what is preferable on a given day- not really factual engineering designs that are equally comparable. Oddly, tubes- good ones, they always sound good, yes, better then their SS counter parts- no matter how they are compared (when compared using the same source's). But they can be a pain to live with, are expensive (now a days) and create a lot of heat- so- SS is a better option for many users. John Curl for example-designs for what? 5 different brands does he design for, heck maybe even more- do any of these sound better or worse then each other; I am sure they do, but again it's build quality (money allowing for higher quality parts ect.) vrs the hype- IMHO. AT a certain point WPC is simply WPC- this is where the pre-amp and source components are so very important.

By way of example, I had one of Halcron's newer digital amps and it was horrible $6700.00 amplifier and it was simply terrible, loud, ok, so what, so is my Harley. But did this amplifier sound better then what I have- not even close- subjective, granted, as is all of audio from a given point of view, but at what point does money stop buying better sound? This is my real point I am trying to get at.

It is so perplexing for most perspective buyers that they have nothing to really use as a point of reference. A paradox for the buyer, and the engineers wonder why high end audio is dying a slow death? Yet, for me, after trial and error, when one desires perfect audio, that this is when you finally realize- perfect audio is not possible, close ..yes, perfect, no way- no matter how much you spend- nothing beats that of live of "you are there", or listening to the actual studio recordings.

Just my 2 cents worth.

The problem has always been to prove one amp sounds different (better, worse, or indifferent) to another. I can say whatever I want, which does not make it true. In fact, we all know that fiction is presented as fact constantly. People repeat stuff that's plain wrong. For example, people will say we only use 10% of our brain. They heard it somewhere. But they did not bother to fact check.

It's not that I think someone who says one amp is better than another is lying or an idiot. I just can't be sure they are not making it up in their own head, or there's some unknown variable unrelated to an amplifier switch. Because there's no way to prove it. That should not stop THEM from buying what they want. Who am I, or anyone else on this forum to tell them what they hear, or how to spend their money.

So the debate will continue until what they hear can be measured and therefore understood. Until then, we just have to follow our own best judgement.

The lovely thing is that if you buy the "wrong" amp, the world won't end. It just seems silly to spend a lot of time debating audio, when you consider what happened in America this week. It's fun (sometimes,) and if people can just be polite, and not grind an axe loudly, we can all enjoy civil discussion. But it's not critical, and there are more important things going on. Sorry, will get off my soapbox
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post #198 of 240 Old 06-10-2013, 02:14 PM
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Thank you MichealJHuman for this great thread!!!! As an EE major with a MS degree, I found your layman explanation of amplifiers not only accurate but exciting and interesting.
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post #199 of 240 Old 06-11-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

The problem has always been to prove one amp sounds different (better, worse, or indifferent) to another. I can say whatever I want, which does not make it true. In fact, we all know that fiction is presented as fact constantly. People repeat stuff that's plain wrong. For example, people will say we only use 10% of our brain. They heard it somewhere. But they did not bother to fact check.

It's not that I think someone who says one amp is better than another is lying or an idiot. I just can't be sure they are not making it up in their own head, or there's some unknown variable unrelated to an amplifier switch. Because there's no way to prove it. That should not stop THEM from buying what they want. Who am I, or anyone else on this forum to tell them what they hear, or how to spend their money.

So the debate will continue until what they hear can be measured and therefore understood. Until then, we just have to follow our own best judgement.

The lovely thing is that if you buy the "wrong" amp, the world won't end. It just seems silly to spend a lot of time debating audio, when you consider what happened in America this week. It's fun (sometimes,) and if people can just be polite, and not grind an axe loudly, we can all enjoy civil discussion. But it's not critical, and there are more important things going on. Sorry, will get off my soapbox

Thank you so which ones are good tube amps? In addition what do you think of the following amps

- Classe CA-M600
- Odyssey Stratos http://odysseyaudio.com/products-stratos-stereo.html
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post #201 of 240 Old 08-15-2013, 08:58 AM
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Question moved:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486299/avr-vs-stereo-amp-aka-i-have-no-idea-what-im-talking-about

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post #202 of 240 Old 08-15-2013, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post


Or am I completely off with my questions?

Your post is best posted elsewhere where you can crowd-source your answer more successfully and not clog up an objective technical thread.
IMHO on the topic and questions you've posed, you're in the chicken-and-the-egg dilemma in the tech world, where if you don't know the answer, you shouldn't bother asking the question because you won't understand the answer because you don't know what you want.
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post #203 of 240 Old 08-15-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Cravit8 View Post

Your post is best posted elsewhere where you can crowd-source your answer more successfully and not clog up an objective technical thread.
IMHO on the topic and questions you've posed, you're in the chicken-and-the-egg dilemma in the tech world, where if you don't know the answer, you shouldn't bother asking the question because you won't understand the answer because you don't know what you want.
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post #204 of 240 Old 08-15-2013, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamandro View Post

Ho everyone,

maybe someone can shed some light for me (hope this is the right place).

Since I heard different things, I'm not relly sure what's just hear-say and what's actual fact anymore.

The thing was mainly AVRs versus stereo amps and people claiming that a stereo amp would sound a lot better than digital ones, as found in an AVR.

So there's digital amps and stereo amps and then there are AVRs. I suppose the statement above derives from AVRs from a few years ago, that would create great movie sound, but rather bad stereo/music sound.

Since I'm new to HiFi and plan to buy a decent 5.1 system (also for music enjoyment), I'm still at a loss as to what I should look for. Mainly I'm at a loss as separates a 300$ AVR from an 2000$ AVR from a stereo amp. Sure there's power requirements and impedance and all those figures, but what is it that really brings your towers and bookchelves alive? At what (price)point would you go from an AVR to a stereo amp? Or AVR plus a power amp on the pre-amp-outs?

How does a Marantz AVR (calling themselves audiophile) compare to a stereo amp? And on what loudspeakers would you be able to really tell a difference? Some 200$ pair? On a 2000$ pair?

Or am I completely off with my questions?
Start a new thread. Your questions are far too general to get any kind of decent answer. My simple answer would be that any decent 5.1 AVR will serve your purpose.

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post #205 of 240 Old 09-14-2013, 08:58 PM
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General question here I am trying to use the calculator in the FAQ but am failing. I am attempting to calculate how many watts I need to power my front three channels at +10db The channels are two mythos 4 with the following specs

Maximum Sensitivity
Center 91 dB
Total Frequency Response
Center 35 Hz - 30 kHz
Nominal Impedance
Center 8 ohm
Crossover
A/V Receiver Crossover Setting 100 Hz
Power Handling 20 - 225 watts per channel

And one center channel procenter 1000
Maximum Sensitivity
1 watt @ 1 Meter 90 dB
Total Frequency Response
Overall 47 Hz - 30 kHz
Nominal Impedance
Compatible with 8 ohm
Crossover
A/V Receiver Crossover Setting Small (80 Hz)
Power Handling 10 - 200 watts per channel

Thank you very much! my marantz 6006 just cant handle it anymore and has overheated on me a few times because its not designed for the high volume output

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post #206 of 240 Old 09-15-2013, 06:39 AM
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If by +10db you are referring to the master volume setting on the "relative" volume scale on the 6006....



... then that would equate to 95db in the calculation as the low end of reference volume after running Audyssey is 85db (ie. 85 +10 = 95); however, note that to ensure there is enough headroom available for the audio peaks, it's generally advised to NOT go above 0db on the master volume which is most likely why your 6006 is overheating ... an incredible amount of additional power is required above 0db yet very little (if any) real increase in volume will be noted. As noted in the FAQ, you must double the power to increase the volume a mere 3db so with the 6006 being rated at 110W at the very least you'll want to add a 200W+ amp (eg. Emotive XPA-3).

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post #207 of 240 Old 09-15-2013, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If by +10db you are referring to the master volume setting on the "relative" volume scale on the 6006....



... then that would equate to 95db in the calculation as the low end of reference volume after running Audyssey is 85db (ie. 85 +10 = 95); however, note that to ensure there is enough headroom available for the audio peaks, it's generally advised to NOT go above 0db on the master volume which is most likely why your 6006 is overheating ... an incredible amount of additional power is required above 0db yet very little (if any) real increase in volume will be noted. As noted in the FAQ, you must double the power to increase the volume a mere 3db so with the 6006 being rated at 110W at the very least you'll want to add a 200W+ amp (eg. Emotive XPA-3).

Thank you very much that is exactly what I was looking for. smile.gif

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post #208 of 240 Old 09-15-2013, 09:23 AM
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In the section Why do people say that too little power damages speakers? I would suggest adding a link to Monty Ross's paper “Power Amplifier Clipping and its Effects on Loudspeaker Reliability”. It has been quoted a few times on the forum, but not in the past 4 years.

http://www.adx.co.nz/techinfo/audio/note128.pdf

Ross points out a situation where low frequency components, with the greatest demand for power, are the first to start clipping. High frequency components, with less demand for power, are not yet clipping but their average power level is going up. By the time that the user notices that his “speakers sound bright” amplitude compression has set in. The woofers can not get any louder, but the tweeters can.

Ross also has interesting comments on the power levels of the harmonic's created by clipping, as well as a user's tolerance of clipping in program material.

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post #209 of 240 Old 11-12-2013, 10:10 AM
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This is incredibly informative, Thanks.

I was hoping someone could chime in on whether the Pioneer VSX-822-K 5.1-Channel 3D Ready A/V Receiver is able to power two Monitor70 speakers (front) for movies in a 20X18 room? This is an apartment and so I'm not try to shake the walls.

The rest of the system will include a CS2, a BIC sub, and eventually some surrounds.

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post #210 of 240 Old 11-12-2013, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donlon101 View Post

This is incredibly informative, Thanks.
I was hoping someone could chime in on whether the Pioneer VSX-822-K 5.1-Channel 3D Ready A/V Receiver is able to power two Monitor70 speakers (front) for movies in a 20X18 room? This is an apartment and so I'm not try to shake the walls.
The rest of the system will include a CS2, a BIC sub, and eventually some surrounds.
Yes.

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