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post #31 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 04:54 AM
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The e-peen techhead inside me told me "damn I'm going to have to postpone my planned receiver upgrade until amps with this come out!"

Then I saw the attached picture from post #2 and I realised how ridiculous it's getting.

More than half my Blu-Ray collection is only 5.1, including Avatar. I'll be good for 10 years with 7.1. with 7 speakers blasting out uncompressed sound on a good AVR...who the hell cares if all the 'gaps' are filled. I'm sure it will sound amazing, but I think it will just cause satellite system spamming at the entry level. I know people go for quality over quantity and I think even the enthusiasts will have a hard time at justifying another 2 pairs of surrounds simply for upmixing lesser sound formats.
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post #32 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post

The e-peen techhead inside me told me "damn I'm going to have to postpone my planned receiver upgrade until amps with this come out!"
Then I saw the attached picture from post #2 and I realised how ridiculous it's getting.

So I'm just guessing here, but I think what you are saying is that probably you will not upgrade to the full Hamasaki 22.2 surround environment (in around 2020)...?


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post #33 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 04:43 PM
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Because I have had Yamaha's Front Presence (aka Front Height) speakers in place on my home systems for around 20 years, my last three (processor) upgrades 'included' Yamaha CinemaDSP processing, which is now available only in Yamaha AVRs. What would make me happy would be to see--in two or three years--a 'sub $750' pre|pro with included DPLIIz and DTS Neo:X processing and which I could blend into a system with an existing AVR and power amps . . . rather than buying yet another AVR, and then just not using some or even all of its power amps!

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post #34 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

So I'm just guessing here, but I think what you are saying is that probably you will not upgrade to the full Hamasaki 22.2 surround environment (in around 2020)...?

You would be correct.
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post #35 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Certainly is a chicken/egg situation Roger ; the bd distributors down here in Aus are more likely to release a 7.1 US title as 5.1 ; region free chips are very popular for amazon purchases

Not sure why they would do that unless they need extra bitrate for separate Aussie and English tracks. The 7.1 mix will play as perfect 5.1 if that's what it's plugged in to.

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If this was a driver for sales I wonder when the current hdmi limit of 8ch will be expanded to the 16ch capability ; not for awhile going on the permutations you listed

No worries. When HDMI carries encoded DTS HDMA or TrueHD, those channel definitions do not apply. It's whatever can be fit through 24.5 or 18 Mbps, respectively.
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post #36 of 1244 Old 04-05-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Not sure why they would do that unless they need extra bitrate for separate Aussie and English tracks. The 7.1 mix will play as perfect 5.1 if that's what it's plugged in to.

Stone the crows ;struth you sussed that out well Ive got a copy of ''Natural Born Killers'' that has a latin spanish 2.0 sub track ;others with french; italian ;norwegian;portuguese; mandarin;swedish;Korean ; it never ends.. just one lossless would do..
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No worries. When HDMI carries encoded DTS HDMA or TrueHD, those channel definitions do not apply. It's whatever can be fit through 24.5 or 18 Mbps, respectively.

Its always intrigued me that truehd is a more efficient compression than hdma and that could lead to more bitrate given over to the video ; must be more too it than I surmise though .
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post #37 of 1244 Old 04-05-2011, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Its always intrigued me that truehd is a more efficient compression than hdma and that could lead to more bitrate given over to the video ; must be more too it than I surmise though .

Those max bitrate figures are not at all related with compression efficiency. Actually the compression is pretty similar.
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post #38 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Those max bitrate figures are not at all related with compression efficiency. Actually the compression is pretty similar.

Thanks Roger ; wont take this off topic ; both codecs being lossless

btw ;Just realised what irony this is for the 'queens english'
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Colin Firth plays King George VI, who, to overcome his stammer, sees Lionel Logue, an unorthodox Australian speech therapist played by Geoffrey Rush.

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post #39 of 1244 Old 04-29-2011, 05:51 PM
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Although I don't think we were expecting to see many DTS Neo:X products announced until perhaps [near to] CEDIA EXPO 2011 next September, I did think we might get better 'rumors' by now!
[Did the 'Neo:X Groundhog' see its shadow and duck back into its burrow for another few months...? ]

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post #40 of 1244 Old 04-29-2011, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Although I don't think we were expecting to see many DTS Neo:X products announced until perhaps [near to] CEDIA EXPO 2011 next September, I did think we might get better 'rumors' by now!
[Did the 'Neo:X Groundhog' see its shadow and duck back into its burrow for another few months...? ]

As I mentioned @ the start of this thread AVRs and surround processors incorporating DTS Neo.X will be this Fall..

Be advised that we are now beta testing a major brand surround preamp/processor that includes DTS Neo.X. This product has a target MP start date in the 3rd week in August..

Next question..

Just my $0.02..
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post #41 of 1244 Old 04-29-2011, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

As I mentioned @ the start of this thread AVRs and surround processors incorporating DTS Neo.X will be this Fall..

Be advised that we are now beta testing a major brand surround preamp/processor that includes DTS Neo.X. This product has a target MP start date in the 3rd week in August..

Next question..

Just my $0.02..



So when is the TX-NR5009 coming out again?
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post #42 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

As I mentioned @ the start of this thread AVRs and surround processors incorporating DTS Neo.X will be this Fall.

Excellent rumor!

[And in unrelated news:] From Onkyo's product page for the TX-NR1009:
Quote:


"The TX-NR1009 transforms your living room into an immersive entertainment space. As the world’s first receiver to feature DTS Neo:X™, it harnesses 9.2 channels [. . .]
ADVANCED FEATURES [. . .]
DTS Neo:X™, Audyssey DSX™, and Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz for Expanded Surround Channels [. . .]"

As we anticipated, Onkyo appears to have adopted a 'kitchen sink' strategy and decided to include [all of] Neo:X, DSX, DPLIIz in the same AVR even at this price point.

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post #43 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 10:15 AM
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It'll be interesting to see what Pioneer does & how long it takes them to implement NeoX. They tend to be behind Denon & Onkyo on new surround processing.

They are supposed to announce new Elites this summer-ish. So, it's either then or wait to next yr's models, I would think.

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post #44 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Excellent rumor!

As I mentioned over 4 months ago..
DTS Neo.X will start to appear this Fall, the algorithm has been certified by the (2) largest audio DSP makers now it is up to the brands for inclusion. To date there are (4) brands and 7 products defined to include DTS Neo.X, due to ship in 2nd half of 2011.

Don't ask I cannot disclose the brands/models as we are under NDA..

Just my $0.02...
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post #45 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

...Don't ask I cannot disclose the brands/models as we are under NDA..

But it shouldn't break any NDA to say which brands you are NOT beta testing. For example, if you didn't sign an NDA with Yamaha you could say you're not testing a Yamaha with Neo:X. That would be useful info.
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post #46 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 12:52 PM
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^^
process of elimination

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post #47 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

But it shouldn't break any NDA to say which brands you are NOT beta testing. For example, if you didn't sign an NDA with Yamaha you could say you're not testing a Yamaha with Neo:X. That would be useful info.

OK...
We are not testing for the brands Samsung, LG, Daewoo or Bose..

Just my $0.02...
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post #48 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 02:56 PM
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Damn, and I really wanted that 11.2 Bose system.

So you haven't ruled out Yamaha. They passed on PLIIz, but if Neo:X is being picked up by multiple brands I don't really see how they can afford not to adopt it.
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post #49 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

So you haven't ruled out Yamaha. They passed on PLIIx, but if Neo:X is being picked up by multiple brands I don't really see how they can afford not to adopt it.

There's plenty of Yamaha AVRs with PLIIx. No?
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post #50 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

There's plenty of Yamaha AVRs with PLIIx. No?

Typo, meant PLIIz.

And while you're here, would the reason they passed only be the cost of the licensing fee? Is it that much? Yamaha even had PLIIz in the DSP code they got from TI, but they never made it available to the end user.
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post #51 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Typo, meant PLIIz.

And while you're here, would the reason they passed only be the cost of the licensing fee? Is it that much? Yamaha even had PLIIz in the DSP code they got from TI, but they never made it available to the end user.

I doubt that cost is an issue. It's probably because Yamaha takes pride in walking its own path, and they have various proprietary algorithms such as Cinema DSP (11.1 way ahead of the pack), Silent Cinema headphone, YPAO EQ, rather than feed from the same trough as the others. It's about differentiation in a crowded market.
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post #52 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Typo, meant PLIIz.

And while you're here, would the reason they passed only be the cost of the licensing fee? Is it that much? Yamaha even had PLIIz in the DSP code they got from TI, but they never made it available to the end user.

Within the TI DSP is an image of the included available algorithms, to access each one an encrypted code is required. The brand specifies to TI which codes they want to access, provided they are licensed for each respective one and next they write the appropriate software controller code.

This allows TI to make a common DSP audio processor that all of the major brands can use, fewer parts to inventory.

Just my $0.02...
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post #53 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I doubt that cost is an issue. It's probably because Yamaha takes pride in walking its own path, and they have various proprietary algorithms such as Cinema DSP (11.1 way ahead of the pack), Silent Cinema headphone, YPAO EQ, rather than feed from the same trough as the others. It's about differentiation in a crowded market.

Agreed. Nonetheless, with competitor brands already offering 'front wide speaker' technology at mass market price points (e.g., Pioneer VSX-1021-K at MSRP US$549, and Onkyo TX-NR709 at MSRP US$899), Yamaha presently limits/restricts itself as a "switch to brand" for [existing] 'other AVR brand' consumers who have already acquired a speaker configuration that includes a front wide speaker pair. So it seems likely we might see Yamaha AVRs offering a front wide speaker pair option within the next couple of years (probably starting at around the MSRP US$599 price point). However, with regard to Cinema DSP, Yamaha also says:
Quote:


"Advanced Decoding Circuitry
The decoding circuitry performs Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, DTS Digital Surround, DTS-ES (DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 and DTS-ES Discrete 6.1), DTS Neo:6 and DTS 96/24 decoding with extreme accuracy, as well as all digital sound field processing. [. . .]"


So I would guess that Yamaha waited for both DPLIIz and DTS Neo:X to be "finalized" in order that they need do only a single 'port' of the existing Yamaha DSP soundfields 'as an overlay' onto those two post processing environments to produce [something like] "11.1_Front-Height+Wide_CinemaDSP-3D".

[And no doubt we'll see a 13.x Yamaha 'premium model' offered with a separate Rear Presence speaker pair before too long! ]

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post #54 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Be advised that we are now beta testing a major brand surround preamp/processor that includes DTS Neo.X.

A recent household-wide "amp inventory" showed 40+ "amp channels" available, when I totaled across AVRs, power amps, and active speakers! So I remain ever hopeful that there will be Neo:X capable Pre|Pros at MSRP US$900 or below when I next look into a front end upgrade!

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post #55 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

A recent household-wide "amp inventory" showed 40+ "amp channels" available, when I totaled across AVRs, power amps, and active speakers! So I remain ever hopeful that there will be Neo:X capable Pre|Pros at MSRP US$900 or below when I next look into a front end upgrade!


Wow wee..
40 Amplifier channels..
I too have many channels, but in my listening tests of DTS NEO.X, I am attached to their 9.2 configuration as this provides my listening room a slightly, more lively soundstage then their 7.2 configuration.

IMHO...
The 7.2 configuration will satisfy the majority of the markets while not requiring additional amplifier channels above the present 7..
I am using the same loudspeaker for all 7 channels as I don't want to mix brands/models of different loudspeakers. Also my (2) subwoofers are matched as well.

Just my $0.02...
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post #56 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

in my listening tests of DTS NEO.X, I am attached to their 9.2 configuration as this provides my listening room a slightly, more lively soundstage then their 7.2 configuration.

IMHO...
The 7.2 configuration will satisfy the majority of the markets while not requiring additional amplifier channels above the present 7..
I am using the same loudspeaker for all 7 channels as I don't want to mix brands/models of different loudspeakers. Also my (2) subwoofers are matched as well.

Does this version of Neo:X support the idea of the algorithm adapting to wherever the speakers are located, or do they prescribe speaker locations like Audyssey?
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post #57 of 1244 Old 05-04-2011, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Wow wee.. 40 Amplifier channels..
I too have many channels, but in my listening tests of DTS NEO.X, I am attached to their 9.2 configuration as this provides my listening room a slightly, more lively soundstage then their 7.2 configuration.

The fortunate/unfortunate legacy of a 1990 setup with dedicated amp systems for two rooms/systems driven off the same Yamaha DSP processor: each one used four active speakers and an M-35 4x20W surround amp driving pairs of both Front and Rear "Effects" speakers (as Yamaha's Presence speakers were known at that time). Twenty years later I've added a third system currently based around a pair of Klipsch XF-48 active floorstanders . . . so the on-board amps of the [three] Yamaha RX-V6xx AVRs running each system are 'somewhat underutilized'!

When I upgraded to DD5.1/DTS5.1 from ProLogic, it was just a matter of adding an [external] decoder. It's unfortunate that the current architecture and economics of home theater make it 'difficult' to upgrade mid-priced hardware other than by replacing a complete AVR (instead of at most a Pre|Pro). [I'd really just like a 'low cost' option to expand one in-place system from "without Neo:X" to "with Neo:X", if I chose to do so . . . and without having to buy a bunch more amps that I don't intend to use! ]
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post #58 of 1244 Old 05-05-2011, 12:18 AM
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Onkyo engineers are really lazy.

Why couldn't they have just given us the full 11.2 pre outs in the x009 models dammit!

The 1007/1008/1009 are all bound by the same 9.2 limitation.

I moved from an Onkyo 875 to the Denon 4810 to get DSX.

Give me a reason to go back, Onkyo!!
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post #59 of 1244 Old 05-05-2011, 02:24 PM
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I'm guessing we'll have to wait for the first North American market announcement of a Neo:X capable AVR or Pre|Pro before DTS adds some Neo:X "substance" to their website. Neo:X won't be "real" until the DTS's Speaker Layout and Configuration webpage lists an 11.1 speaker layout!

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post #60 of 1244 Old 05-05-2011, 03:06 PM
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Hi All,

Has anyone been able to compare DTS Neo:X & Audyssey DSX with both Front & Wides engaged & can pass some comments in the comparison between the two?

Bazzy!
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