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post #631 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

The Pioneer SC-1522 (and SC-65) 9.2 AVR has Neo:X and can be connected to 11 speakers, though it can only play on 9 of the 11 at once. In the manual, Neo:X is described as "Up to 9.1 channel sound (surround back and front height or surround back and front wide) ..."

But which is it? Front height or front wide, or maybe it varies between the two?

(If this was discussed above in the thread, I'm sorry that I missed it.)
It is which ever you choose. Just not both.

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post #632 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

The Pioneer SC-1522 (and SC-65) 9.2 AVR has Neo:X and can be connected to 11 speakers, though it can only play on 9 of the 11 at once. In the manual, Neo:X is described as "Up to 9.1 channel sound (surround back and front height or surround back and front wide) ..."

But which is it? Front height or front wide, or maybe it varies between the two?

(If this was discussed above in the thread, I'm sorry that I missed it.)

I think a lot depends on the model and capabilities of the surround processor. Fully functioning Neo:X decoders can output 11.1 "channels" (since it's matrix processing from up to 7.1 discrete channel soundtracks, I don't consider the extra output "channels") simultaneously. You'll have to look in the various pre-amp and receiver specs. if they support full 11.1 Neo:X output modes, or if they have more limited outputs.

Looks like those receiver models don't have the DSP horsepower to handle a 7.1 channel discrete track plus the four additional matrix post processed speaker outputs of Neo: X. If you really want 11 speakers working at the same time, you'll have to choose a top flight model.

In the Expendable II reviews I've read, they recommended the Onkyo NR-5010 or Denon 4520 as being able to do the full 11.1 spread. Those are not cheap receivers.

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post #633 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 12:12 PM
 
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The Expendables II sounded amazing on the Onkyo 3010 (which has the same Neo:X as the 5010). The movie was good too - not great, but entertaining.
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post #634 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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The Denon AVR4520 has the DSP power to do an 11.2 processing, but only has 9 amplifiers on-board, an external 2 CH amplifier must be connected for the additional 2 channels to the respective pre-outs. The 4520 uses multiple AD Sharc DSPs which has enough resources..
The limiting factor is chassis size and thermal dissipation capacity for (2) more Class AB 150W amplifiers and power supply, in the future when they upgrade to Class D amplifiers this will be addressed...

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #635 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The movie was good too - not great, but entertaining.

If you consider a root canal "entertaining." biggrin.gif

Seriously though, why can't high quality movies get high quality sound too?

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post #636 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you really want 11 speakers working at the same time, you'll have to choose a top flight model.
Yes, I know that the 1522 receiver does not do 11 channels at once. I said that. But my question was about which 9 channels I would get with Neo:X processing on this receiver. I'm not asking how to get 11 channels simultaneously, interesting though that might be.

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post #637 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

The Pioneer SC-1522 (and SC-65) 9.2 AVR has Neo:X and can be connected to 11 speakers, though it can only play on 9 of the 11 at once. In the manual, Neo:X is described as "Up to 9.1 channel sound (surround back and front height or surround back and front wide) ..."

But which is it? Front height or front wide, or maybe it varies between the two?

(If this was discussed above in the thread, I'm sorry that I missed it.)
I saw some discussion of this in the Pioneer thread, ~posts 673-676. What throws people off is that the manual states: >>The front height and front wide channels are switched automatically according to the audio input signal.<< The mystery has not been solved (that I have seen, anyway) as to how the AVR would decide on the fly to choose between wides and heights.

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post #638 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The mystery has not been solved (that I have seen, anyway) as to how the AVR would decide on the fly to choose between wides and heights.
Aha. Thanks for the reference. In principle, I ought to be able to offer some evidence, since I do have my SC-1522 hooked up to 11 speakers, both FW and FH are enabled and are detected during calibration. I'm using Neo:X Cinema mode now for a DD 5.1 input, and I've walked over to put my ear down to a FW speaker a few times, but so far I haven't heard anything coming out.

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post #639 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I saw some discussion of this in the Pioneer thread, ~posts 673-676. What throws people off is that the manual states: >>The front height and front wide channels are switched automatically according to the audio input signal.<< The mystery has not been solved (that I have seen, anyway) as to how the AVR would decide on the fly to choose between wides and heights.

For the SC65...
The rear panel has binding posts for front left/right front height speakers (FHL/FHR) and left/right front wide speakers (FWL/FWR), the signal is not automatic switching it is done by using the Speakers button on the remote control or front panel. The wording in the manual is ambiguous, as the way speaker mode switching is done either by the front panel Speakers button or remote control Speakers button...
There is a position called SP: FH/FW ON and the user selects toggles manually between FHL/FHR or FWL/FWR...

Also note that the SC65 has a Virtual Height and Virtual Wide modes as well..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #640 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

For the SC65...
...
There is a position called SP: FH/FW ON and the user selects toggles manually between FHL/FHR or FWL/FWR...
I don't know what you mean. The "speakers" button on the remote switches among four possible settings: FH/FW ON, FH ON, FW ON, OFF. If you choose the FH/FW ON setting, what do you get? I guess you can turn off either FW or FH, but what if you don't turn either off? That's what I'm curious about.

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post #641 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I don't know what you mean. The "speakers" button on the remote switches among four possible settings: FH/FW ON, FH ON, FW ON, OFF. If you choose the FH/FW ON setting, what do you get? I guess you can turn off either FW or FH, but what if you don't turn either off? That's what I'm curious about.

When you press the Speakers button, check the digital display:
1. Press it once it shows FH/FW ON
2. Pressing it a second time, FH ON is shown
3. Press it a third time, FW ON is shown
4. Press it a fourth time, FH/FW OFF is shown

Keep in mind this task is not meant to be switched ON/OFF frequently, once either front height (FH) or front wide (FW) is selected it is usually left in that position. Note that since the SC65 only has 9 channels of on-board amplification so only either FH or FW will play @ a time. Essentially one is switching the input stream to either pair of connected speakers. However since the SC65 does have pre-outs for another 2 channel amplifier so the DSP could in fact be processing/outputting both FH & FW simultaneously.

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #642 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

However since the SC65 does have pre-outs for another 2 channel amplifier so the DSP could in fact be processing/outputting both FH & FW simultaneously.
That seems to contradict Page 19 of the manual which states:

>>It is not possible to produce sound simultaneously from the front height speakers and the front wide speakers.<<

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post #643 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That seems to contradict Page 19 of the manual which states:

>>It is not possible to produce sound simultaneously from the front height speakers and the front wide speakers.<<

The manual is correct..
It cannot do both FH and FW with the built-in 9 amplifiers, thats why another 2 channels of external amplification is required. The described Speaker button functionality is basically for the DSP post-processing modes of the native source audio stream.


Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #644 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

When you press the Speakers button, check the digital display:
1. Press it once it shows FH/FW ON
2. Pressing it a second time, FH ON is shown
3. Press it a third time, FW ON is shown
4. Press it a fourth time, FH/FW OFF is shown
Yes, except for your #4 (which is wrong -- all speakers are off), that's what I said. But it doesn't answer the question I asked. What do you get with setting #1 in Neo:X?
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However since the SC65 does have pre-outs for another 2 channel amplifier so the DSP could in fact be processing/outputting both FH & FW simultaneously.
That would be great, but nothing in the product literature or the manual that I can see supports this interpretation. It's simply a 9 channel receiver. But let's not get sidetracked. This is another issue.

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post #645 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 08:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you consider a root canal "entertaining." biggrin.gif

Seriously though, why can't high quality movies get high quality sound too?

Breaks into song "You'll be a dentist. You have a talent for causin' things pain. Son, be a dentist. People will pay you to be inhumane."
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post #646 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Yes, except for your #4 (which is wrong -- all speakers are off), that's what I said.
Check page 74 of the Operation Manual, there are actually (3) levels of switching for speakers my reference is for the 2nd level which is the 9.1ch FH/FW mode.
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But it doesn't answer the question I asked. What do you get with setting #1 in Neo:X?
That would be great, but nothing in the product literature or the manual that I can see supports this interpretation. It's simply a 9 channel receiver. But let's not get sidetracked. This is another issue.


Check pages 18, 23 and 93 of the Operation Manual for the rear panel connections..
These will explain more for you. Basically with the 9.1 system the user can wire up both pairs for FW and FH but only 1 pair will output, and the Speaker switch permits the user to toggle between these. However when an external 2 channel amplifier is connected then both FW and FH can output. For example, FW using the internal SC65 amplifier channels 8/9 and FH using the additional 2 external channels of amplification. Thats why the Speaker button has Position 1 for the FW and FH ON mode, this is telling the SC65's audio processors what to do, process/output both front Wide and Height signals...

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #647 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Yes, except for your #4 (which is wrong -- all speakers are off), that's what I said.

Check page 74 of the Operation Manual, there are actually (3) levels of switching for speakers my reference is for the 2nd level which is the 9.1ch FH/FW mode.
I'm looking at page 74 of the manual for the SC-1522-K. For the 9.1ch FH/FW mode (which is what I use), it says that the 4th setting is "SP: OFF -- No sound is output from the speakers." That is just as I said above. And when I use that setting, in fact, no sound is output from any of the speakers. All speakers are off, just as I said.

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post #648 of 1283 Old 02-24-2013, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I'm looking at page 74 of the manual for the SC-1522-K. For the 9.1ch FH/FW mode (which is what I use), it says that the 4th setting is "SP: OFF -- No sound is output from the speakers." That is just as I said above. And when I use that setting, in fact, no sound is output from any of the speakers. All speakers are off, just as I said.

As I noted in my original posts, these were for the SC65...

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #649 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 11:47 AM
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I just reconfigured my room to take advantage of four B&W 802D and my in ceiling B&W Signature 7NT in ceiling (over the sofa speakers),

 

I also used a Y XLR to feed the surround speakers the same imput, whoa that was really impressive :)

 

So now with 9.2 I am ready for MDA or Atmos, too bad the SSP-800 doesn't have DTS NeoX or IIz :(

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post #650 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

I just reconfigured my room to take advantage of four B&W 802D and my in ceiling B&W Signature 7NT in ceiling (over the sofa speakers),


I also used a Y XLR to feed the surround speakers the same imput, whoa that was really impressive smile.gif


So now with 9.2 I am ready for MDA or Atmos, too bad the SSP-800 doesn't have DTS NeoX or IIz frown.gif

You're only off by 13 speakers for MDA and 55 for Atmos. biggrin.gif

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post #651 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

You're only off by 13 speakers for MDA and 55 for Atmos. biggrin.gif
atmos. Isn't about the number of speakers though

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #652 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

atmos. Isn't about the number of speakers though

I know. I was joking.

Though, it would be good to know what they're going to be recommending to consumer hardware manufacturers as to how many speaker/sub outputs should be controlled via these object-oriented formats. At least for the foreseeable future.

Or it will be all over the map and that won't help consumers who aren't familiar with this type of surround.

Though, you do need enough speakers to create both direct and atmospheric music and surround effects with some kind of precision.

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post #653 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 01:02 PM
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64 speakers in you living rom sure that's very likely to happen, not!

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64 speakers in you living rom sure that's very likely to happen, not!

17 in the tv-room, 12 in the livingroom, 20 (to be 21) in the cinema... Even if I put them together I'd be 14 short. Nope, no way that's going to happen here...

Edit: forgot the two linearrays stored in the attic so make it 12 short.

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post #655 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

64 speakers in you living rom sure that's very likely to happen, not!

I've had a combined in-use and still-in-box total of 14 satellites plus 2 subs in my home office for the last couple of years awaiting a 'generally accepted' 3D audio speaker configuration, which I think might resemble a one-speaker-per-channel version of the imm sound 14.1 channel configuration . . . using 9 middle layer speakers, plus 5 heights. Beyond that, I'm willing to be a little flexible . . . but not much.biggrin.gif

Imm 14.1 speaker configuration
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post #656 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 01:37 PM
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post #657 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post I've had a combined in-use and still-in-box total of 14 satellites plus 2 subs in my home office for the last couple of years awaiting a 'generally accepted' 3D audio speaker configuration, which I think might resemble a one-speaker-per-channel version of the imm sound 14.1 channel configuration . . . using 9 middle layer speakers, plus 5 heights. Beyond that, I'm willing to be a little flexible . . . but not much.biggrin.gif
_

That's all! Whoa cool

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

I've had a combined in-use and still-in-box total of 14 satellites plus 2 subs in my home office for the last couple of years awaiting a 'generally accepted' 3D audio speaker configuration, which I think might resemble a one-speaker-per-channel version of the imm sound 14.1 channel configuration . . . using 9 middle layer speakers, plus 5 heights. Beyond that, I'm willing to be a little flexible . . . but not much.biggrin.gif
_

Cool!

I have 17, using a standard 7.2 configuration with 2 front and rear side axis speakers and 6 over head speakers ( all are "technically" individual channels) 2 subs, and 2 front and rear presence speakers.
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post #659 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Socio View PostCool!

I have 17, using a standard 7.2 configuration with 2 front and rear side axis speakers and 6 over head speakers ( all are "technically" individual channels) 2 subs, and 2 front and rear presence speakers.

 

So what speakers do you use?

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post #660 of 1283 Old 02-25-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

No. That is not sound steering but ambience creation, more along the lines of DSX. Neo:X is more like what you are doing with the CS3XJR units, but all tidied up and done with frequency-selective steering.

Ah I assumed since heights are generally placed above and behind fronts it was for raising the stage up and giving it some depth, which is basically the same placement for presence speakers.

It will be interesting to hear what is sent up to the heights and how it is derived with Neo X.
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