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post #811 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 08:39 AM
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The initial SMPTE effort is in defining a common delivery format. The counterpart to today's 5.1 PCM format from which every distribution format starts. And even though there is a lot of fundamental commonality, a THX theater does not sound the same as an IMAX theater, for example. They vary in how the speakers are used, their quality, their tuning, etc. There are other such variants out there, too.

And now we can experience a movie in an Atmos cinema or an Auro3D cinema. These sound different from each other, and both are different from traditional 5.1. And movies can also look different if we throw 3D imaging into the equation. We celebrate these variations, not shun them.

As much as I think consistency and uniformity have their place in being able to get a proper presentation of the film makers' art, the above shows us there is also a reasonable range of variation within that definition that we accept and even desire as a matter of choice

Based on that, I do not expect every cinema that ingests a SMPTE object audio mix to yield identical results. That's never happened before, so why now? Even so, I do expect the fundamentals of the mix to be represented with great care and consistency, just as we see today.
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post #812 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The initial SMPTE effort is in defining a common delivery format. The counterpart to today's 5.1 PCM format from which every distribution format starts. And even though there is a lot of fundamental commonality, a THX theater does not sound the same as an IMAX theater, for example. They vary in how the speakers are used, their quality, their tuning, etc. There are other such variants out there, too.

And now we can experience a movie in an Atmos cinema or an Auro3D cinema. These sound different from each other, and both are different from traditional 5.1. And movies can also look different if we throw 3D imaging into the equation. We celebrate these variations, not shun them.

As much as I think consistency and uniformity have their place in being able to get a proper presentation of the film makers' art, the above shows us there is also a reasonable range of variation within that definition that we accept and even desire as a matter of choice

Based on that, I do not expect every cinema that ingests a SMPTE object audio mix to yield identical results. That's never happened before, so why now? Even so, I do expect the fundamentals of the mix to be represented with great care and consistency, just as we see today.
+1 this is why I don't really care who comes out with MDA for HT as long as someone does it well and preferably soon.
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post #813 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The initial SMPTE effort is in defining a common delivery format. The counterpart to today's 5.1 PCM format from which every distribution format starts. And even though there is a lot of fundamental commonality, a THX theater does not sound the same as an IMAX theater, for example. They vary in how the speakers are used, their quality, their tuning, etc. There are other such variants out there, too.

And now we can experience a movie in an Atmos cinema or an Auro3D cinema. These sound different from each other, and both are different from traditional 5.1. And movies can also look different if we throw 3D imaging into the equation. We celebrate these variations, not shun them.

As much as I think consistency and uniformity have their place in being able to get a proper presentation of the film makers' art, the above shows us there is also a reasonable range of variation within that definition that we accept and even desire as a matter of choice

Based on that, I do not expect every cinema that ingests a SMPTE object audio mix to yield identical results. That's never happened before, so why now? Even so, I do expect the fundamentals of the mix to be represented with great care and consistency, just as we see today.

I agree, but if there is standards confusion in the industry... there tends to be paralysis. Time = money. And money seems to talk more than artistic integrity. Yes, sad, but true.

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post #814 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

But if they wanted to have one object mix and have that mix work for both DTS and Dolby versions of this new audio technology... doesn't sound like that's possible.
Why not? The meta-data is the labeling system. If the recording engineer wants a sound half way between horizontal and vertical, one system might tag the object as 45° up while the other system might tag it as 50% of vertical. I don't see why translating between those labels would not be possible.

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post #815 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 02:05 PM
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Why not? The meta-data is the labeling system. If the recording engineer wants a sound half way between horizontal and vertical, one system might tag the object as 45° up while the other system might tag it as 50% of vertical. I don't see why translating between those labels would not be possible.

From the quibbling going on, these seem to be different ways of accomplishing similar goals... it's like LINUX and Windows and Apple's OS. They're all operating systems, but they don't work with the exact same language, so they can't play together. And nobody seems willing, at this time, to budge. Both DTS and Dolby state: "Hey, use MY object-oriented system as the "open" platform! Don't use the other guy's!" They're still butting heads like in the early days of digital theatrical audio distribution.

However, I always considered Barco's Auro-3D to be the poor man of the bunch (don't like the speaker layout they chose)... and I believe it acts more like DTS Neo:X matrix processing than being a true object-oriented format with discrete sound control). They should just forget that system and duke it out between real object based formats such as Atmos and MDA.

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post #816 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 06:20 PM
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Atmos and MDA, Onkyo will be the first to have both smile.gif. You can bet on it, and all the high end will poopoo it for at least three years!
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post #817 of 1244 Old 04-19-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

From the quibbling going on, these seem to be different ways of accomplishing similar goals... it's like LINUX and Windows and Apple's OS. They're all operating systems, but they don't work with the exact same language, so they can't play together. And nobody seems willing, at this time, to budge. Both DTS and Dolby state: "Hey, use MY object-oriented system as the "open" platform! Don't use the other guy's!" They're still butting heads like in the early days of digital theatrical audio distribution.
Well, they are not both saying they are open in the same way. MDA is open, royalty free for anyone to use. Dolby's is "open to their partners" whatever that means.

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However, I always considered Barco's Auro-3D to be the poor man of the bunch (don't like the speaker layout they chose)... and I believe it acts more like DTS Neo:X matrix processing than being a true object-oriented format with discrete sound control). They should just forget that system and duke it out between real object based formats such as Atmos and MDA.
I think you misunderstand what Auro is, and that they announced support for MDA audio, too. It's nothing like any matrixing system.

In a nutshell, when MDA is rendered to the Auro speaker array, it sounds exactly the same as a mix made for those same speakers. The only difference is the delivery mechanism, not the end experience.
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post #818 of 1244 Old 04-23-2013, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

However, I always considered Barco's Auro-3D to be the poor man of the bunch (don't like the speaker layout they chose)... and I believe it acts more like DTS Neo:X matrix processing than being a true object-oriented format with discrete sound control). They should just forget that system and duke it out between real object based formats such as Atmos and MDA.
I think you misunderstand what Auro is, and that they announced support for MDA audio, too. It's nothing like any matrixing system.

In a nutshell, when MDA is rendered to the Auro speaker array, it sounds exactly the same as a mix made for those same speakers. The only difference is the delivery mechanism, not the end experience.

As an aside, Auro-3D on Blu-Ray looks to be back in the news next month: Several German and Swiss websites seem to be claiming the 5/17/2013 German language release of Red Tails on Blu-Ray from Capelight will contain both a German Dubbed DTS-HDMA 7.1 soundtrack and an English language Auro-3D 11.1 soundtrack, backward compatible with LPCM 5.1 . . . and likely wrapped in a DTS-HDMA 5.1 encode?

This kerfuffle looks to have originated from the Capelight Product Info sheet (link) . . . which might only be the result of a simple misunderstanding . . . or perhaps it's correct, and [a clue that] the first HT Auro-3D decoders are about to appear. biggrin.gif

In either case it will likely prompt another round of discussion about possible 9.1|10.1|11.1 discrete 3D audio releases within the existing Blu-Ray specs, so keep a look out for any European website postings addressing this issue in the second half of May! cool.gif
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post #819 of 1244 Old 04-23-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


I think you misunderstand what Auro is, and that they announced support for MDA audio, too. It's nothing like any matrixing system.

In a nutshell, when MDA is rendered to the Auro speaker array, it sounds exactly the same as a mix made for those same speakers. The only difference is the delivery mechanism, not the end experience.

Any idea of where one could read about how, exactly, Auro works? I'd like to be enlightened.

Still don't like their choice of speaker placement, but that's just me. biggrin.gif Atmos' seems the more logical approach at this time. Though, I'm not sure what DTS is proposing in regards to optimal speaker placement and amount supported.

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post #820 of 1244 Old 04-23-2013, 07:25 PM
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Any idea of where one could read about how, exactly, Auro works? I'd like to be enlightened..

You might start here (link). smile.gif
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post #821 of 1244 Old 04-23-2013, 07:53 PM
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You might start here (link). smile.gif
_

Thank you kindly. smile.gif

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post #822 of 1244 Old 04-23-2013, 11:44 PM
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I'm not sure what DTS is proposing in regards to optimal speaker placement and amount supported.
With regard to their MDA proposal, there are no recommendations on speaker number or configuration, as it is not a factor in MDA design. It can feed any speakers as may be present.
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post #823 of 1244 Old 04-24-2013, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

With regard to their MDA proposal, there are no recommendations on speaker number or configuration, as it is not a factor in MDA design. It can feed any speakers as may be present.
Indeed one of the benefits of MDA is that it frees you up from rigid speaker placement requirements and still gives you the intended sound placement (or as close as the renderer can make it).

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post #824 of 1244 Old 04-24-2013, 12:52 PM
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Indeed one of the benefits of MDA is that it frees you up from rigid speaker placement requirements and still gives you the intended sound placement (or as close as the renderer can make it).

Looks like there lots of options in their White paper.



Source of images above,
http://www.auro-3d.com/professional/technical-docs
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post #825 of 1244 Old 04-24-2013, 05:58 PM
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Looks like there lots of options in their White paper.



Source of images above,
http://www.auro-3d.com/professional/technical-docs

Looks like Barco has changed their tune when it comes to possible Auro speaker placement... the added surrounds used to mirror the regular commercial theater layout, but just higher up on the wall. Harder to get precise overhead audio placement like that. You really do need sounds emanating from above the audience coming from speakers located, well... over your head. biggrin.gif

Is it possible that they'll be using MDA object rendering software in their system given this new DTS partnership?

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post #826 of 1244 Old 04-25-2013, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Looks like Barco has changed their tune when it comes to possible Auro speaker placement...

Actually, I was just thinking that the most recent graphics of the theatrical Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations . . .



look remarkably similar to those Auro-Technolgies was showing in 2011 . . .




And I guess we'll have to wait for someone in the Netherlands to report on the speaker config of the Stassen HiFi Auro-3D Home Theater demo room after it opens this May (link)...?! cool.gif

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post #827 of 1244 Old 04-25-2013, 06:41 AM
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Actually, I was just thinking that the most recent graphics of the theatrical Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations . . .



look remarkably similar to those Auro-Technolgies was showing in 2011 . . .




And I guess we'll have to wait for someone in the Netherlands to report on the speaker config of the Stassen HiFi Auro-3D Home Theater demo room after it opens this May (link)...?! cool.gif

_

My wife is Danish and has wanted a trip to Denmark for the last several years, and the Netherlands is not too far away at that point! wink.gif hmmm, now how to scheme up the delivery, "Hey sweetheart, let's go to Denmark like you wanted, and afterwards we really should check out the Netherlands...no reason."
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But will Barco be switching over to DTS MDA object rendering to create these Auro-specific mixes, even if their speaker layout isn't quite like Atmos or even DTS's own placement ideas? If the theatrical MDA decoding and rendering software is speaker placement agnostic, that is... where you could plug in for Aero, Atmos, or DTS MDA theater layouts, and it would spit out and place the objects accordingly.

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post #829 of 1244 Old 04-25-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

But will Barco be switching over to DTS MDA object rendering to create these Auro-specific mixes, even if their speaker layout isn't quite like Atmos or even DTS's own placement ideas? If the theatrical MDA decoding and rendering software is speaker placement agnostic, that is... where you could plug in for Auro, Atmos, or DTS MDA theater layouts, and it would spit out and place the objects accordingly.
There are three ways it could go:

1) An MDA mix is delivered to a cinema renderer (be it Auro or other).
2) An MDA mix is rendered to the desired 5.1 - 22.2 channel layout then delivered.
3) Conventional channel-based mixing (5.1 - 22.2) is performed.

These options are not mutually exclusive. A key factor in the choice will be the cost. Right now, conventional 5.1/7.1 mixes are made separate from the Atmos and Auro mixes. Besides cost, that adds time at the worst possible point in the process (the end). If studios begin to streamline the process, making the first mix as an object-based production, the various derivatives come along much faster and cheaper. Such a transition is quite a ways off yet. Give it a few years.
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post #830 of 1244 Old 04-25-2013, 05:17 PM
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My wife is Danish and has wanted a trip to Denmark for the last several years, and the Netherlands is not too far away at that point! wink.gif hmmm, now how to scheme up the delivery, "Hey sweetheart, let's go to Denmark like you wanted, and afterwards we really should check out the Netherlands...no reason."

That's OK, when I was very young, my grandfather and I flew to Mann's Chinese Theater from Indonesia (about 22-hour flight) to watch Indy Jones in THX. We were there for the weekend and watched the movie 3 times. biggrin.gif

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post #831 of 1244 Old 04-25-2013, 11:31 PM
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If studios begin to streamline the process, making the first mix as an object-based production, the various derivatives come along much faster and cheaper. Such a transition is quite a ways off yet. Give it a few years.
The only Atmos movie to do that (first mix as an object-based production) just came out: 'Oblivion'. For this to becomes industry norm is, like you said, probably a few years off.

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post #832 of 1244 Old 04-27-2013, 11:35 AM
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The only Atmos movie to do that (first mix as an object-based production) just came out: 'Oblivion'. For this to becomes industry norm is, like you said, probably a few years off.

Did you see it?
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post #833 of 1244 Old 04-27-2013, 03:10 PM
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The only Atmos movie to do that (first mix as an object-based production) just came out: 'Oblivion'. For this to becomes industry norm is, like you said, probably a few years off.

If only the quality of the sound mix was indicative of the quality of the movie. biggrin.gif

In other words: why can't good movies get excellent audio tracks too?

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post #834 of 1244 Old 04-27-2013, 06:11 PM
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Did you see it?
Yes, first in Dolby Atmos and then in digital IMAX (the director deliberately composed for a 1.9 aspect ratio). The Atmos mix was better than most in that format. However, I think 'Brave' still did a better job of showcasing Atmos' capabilities (smoother pans, overhead imaging).
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If only the quality of the sound mix was indicative of the quality of the movie.
No kidding. Wish Dolby or DTS could do something about artistic output of Hollywood rather than just the technical aspects.

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post #835 of 1244 Old 04-27-2013, 06:17 PM
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No kidding. Wish Dolby or DTS could do something about artistic output of Hollywood rather than just the technical aspects.

Quoted for sage truth.

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Quoted for sage truth.

Hey, I actually liked that movie! Sage truth indeed...pfft... wink.gif
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post #837 of 1244 Old 04-27-2013, 07:24 PM
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If only the quality of the sound mix was indicative of the quality of the movie. biggrin.gif. In other words: why can't good movies get excellent audio tracks too?

I guess you didn't like it!
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post #838 of 1244 Old 04-28-2013, 08:31 AM
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I guess you didn't like it!

I didn't like Tron 2 either... same director. All eye candy (the women included) with a very weak script. Which pretty much describes most modern movies from Hollywoodland.

Two dramatic films I recently saw (that I enjoyed immensely) were Promised Land and The Intouchables. Neither of which probably would ever be considered for detailed object oriented soundtracks... even though they all had atmospheric and environmental sound effects.

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post #839 of 1244 Old 04-28-2013, 10:17 AM
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I didn't like Tron 2 either... same director. All eye candy (the women included) with a very weak script..

Who cares, the film music is by Daft Punk, that's enough.

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post #840 of 1244 Old 04-28-2013, 10:23 AM
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Who cares, the film music is by Daft Punk, that's enough.

I'm afraid I need more than Daft Punk music for me to enjoy a movie. wink.gif

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