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post #901 of 1283 Old 05-11-2013, 09:06 PM
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On the topic of DTS Neo:X, has anyone seen or heard of anymore movies that are encoded other than the three we already discussed?
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post #902 of 1283 Old 05-12-2013, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

You misunderstand. SMPTE2036-2-2008 and IEC 62574 only attempt to define labels for approximate speaker locations...

No, you misunderstood - I meant what to call speakers placed in between middle and top.

Unfortunately, excepting sub woofers, IEC 62574: Audio, video and multimedia systems – General channel assignment of multichannel audio (TC 100) locates all remaining (satellite) speakers in one of three layers: Top Layer, Middle Layer, and Bottom Layer, defined thus:

§2.1 Top Layer
Top (highest) layer of three loudspeaker-layers located at the top of the screen, alternatively at the top of the room. Loudspeaker channels of the top layer are annotated with the letters Tp.
and
§2.2 Middle Layer
Middle layer of three loudspeaker-layers located at the vertical center of the TV screen, alternatively at the same height as the height of viewer’s ear.
and
§2.3 Bottom Layer
Bottom (lowest) layer of three loudspeaker-layers located at the bottom of the TV screen, alternatively at floor level of the room. Loudspeaker channels of the bottom layer are annotated with the letters Bt.


So you must presumably make up your own (height) definition for any speaker you intend NOT to be a member of one of these three layers (as opposed to, e.g., a speaker nominally in a defined layer, but actually placed slightly high or low to accommodate room geometry issues) . . . and since just about every CEM or industry group appears to feel free to ignore speaker naming standards which do not meet their needs, you should consider yourself in good company!
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post #903 of 1283 Old 05-20-2013, 06:25 PM
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I am not sure if this article has already been cited (I often see the updates to this thread very quickly while at work). Here is an interesting read for any who did not already know.


Las Vegas—Apr 15, 2013
DMS Collaborates with DTS to Support DTS Neo: X and MDA Object-*‐Based Audio Playback in the Cinema

DMS, sound specialist for cinema market, providing hardware and technology solutions, is proud to announce it’s collaboration with DTS, Inc. a provider of immersive 3D sound technology, to bring into cinema theaters a reliable and open platform that will support DTS Neo:X and proposed open format for object-*‐based audio, MDA.

MDA is an open object-*‐based audio specification currently being proposed to international standardization committees as an alternative to todays closed proprietary solutions. Audio mixed with MDA as opposed to other surround sound platforms, allows a soundtrack to maintain the exact spatial characteristics of the audio as intended by the mixer. With overwhelming interest from the entertainment industry, MDA has already garnered support from major studios and networks, while content tool providers have already begun developing new authoring solutions for the MDA format.

“DTS started out as a cinematic audio technology company 20 years ago, and we couldn’t be more excited to be working with DMS to get back into the market by pairing their digital cinema sound processors with the ability to support DTS’ latest immersive audio formats,” said P.J. Watson, senior vice president, strategy and business development. “With DTS, DMS’ cinema partners will easily deliver the impactful, memorable entertainment experience that today’s movie goers demand.”

Digital Media Solutions (DMS), the digital sound processor designer and producer, which provides products dedicated to the cinema market under the brand of Cineaudio, will be able to enhance the performance of its new generation of multichannel amplifiers with DTS’ immersive sound technology.

With this new type of sound processor, DMS is bringing to the cinema market an opened platform in which, immersive sound technologies like DTS Neo:X and MDA, can be easily integrated; responding to the latest NATO and UNIC recommendations to develop the installation of new 3D sound Cinema theatres.

Hervé Roux, CEO of Digital Media Solutions, is thrilled to comment: “I’m very happy to support the development of this new MDA object-*‐base with DTS Inc. and glad to include exclusively in our new audio gear, the DTS Neo: X Pro Upmix”.

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/PR.aspx?newsID=3213
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post #904 of 1283 Old 05-20-2013, 07:13 PM
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Hervé Roux, CEO of Digital Media Solutions, is thrilled to comment: “I’m very happy to support the development of this new MDA object-*‐base with DTS Inc. and glad to include exclusively in our new audio gear, the DTS Neo: X Pro Upmix”.
I wonder how movie mixers will feel about having their soundtracks upmixed in commercial theatres.

Sanjay
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post #905 of 1283 Old 05-20-2013, 07:42 PM
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I wonder how movie mixers will feel about having their soundtracks upmixed in commercial theatres.

As happy as a chef watching his meal being covered by ketchup, by the waiter before being served?
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post #906 of 1283 Old 05-30-2013, 05:21 AM
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Auro 10.1 but maybe you don't consider that a current format. http://www.auro-3d.com/system/listening-formats

Current consumer format that we can listen to in our homes, is what I meant. smile.gif

If not yet "in home", at least this is one step closer--the new Certified Auro-3D Home Theater demo room at Stassen Hifi's Palazzo AV store in The Netherlands...

Don't look up! eek.gif

However, no identification of the installed Auro-3D decoder plus the presence of a Top Front Center speaker suggests this might still be an engineering prototype decoder based on the theatrical 11.1 speaker configuration, rather than a pre production consumer home product...?! cool.gif
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post #907 of 1283 Old 05-30-2013, 05:41 AM
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I have. I have an SC-67 and have mine set to use the height speakers for 9.1, and not the width channels. I have tried many different sources and always found Neo X lacked behind PL IIZ.

For older matrixed surround content, it sounds terrible. The entire rear sound field seems to collapse behind me, with no sensation of width. I tried this when I was only set up for 5.1 and got similar results. It also increases the levels of the surround channels to the point that it sounds unnatural to me. The front channels don't seem to have as much width either. I heard someone else say that it sounds like your listening in a hole, and I tend to agree.

For 5.1 and 7.1 material, it sounds better, but still worse than IIz.. I tried out several discs that I know well and have always found that PLIIz adds to the original, while Neo x seems to alter it. The end of Cloverfield with IIz sounded very spacious, with effects being harder to place. Gunshots seemed to phantom into corners and around me. With Neo X, they come from behind me only, and are louder.

I'm hoping I have a chance to try the width channels in the future though.
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post #908 of 1283 Old 06-30-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bladou20 View Post

I have. I have an SC-67 and have mine set to use the height speakers for 9.1, and not the width channels. I have tried many different sources and always found Neo X lacked behind PL IIZ.

For older matrixed surround content, it sounds terrible. The entire rear sound field seems to collapse behind me, with no sensation of width. I tried this when I was only set up for 5.1 and got similar results. It also increases the levels of the surround channels to the point that it sounds unnatural to me. The front channels don't seem to have as much width either. I heard someone else say that it sounds like your listening in a hole, and I tend to agree.

For 5.1 and 7.1 material, it sounds better, but still worse than IIz.. I tried out several discs that I know well and have always found that PLIIz adds to the original, while Neo x seems to alter it. The end of Cloverfield with IIz sounded very spacious, with effects being harder to place. Gunshots seemed to phantom into corners and around me. With Neo X, they come from behind me only, and are louder.

I'm hoping I have a chance to try the width channels in the future though.

When you do try the wides I am interested in your feedback, and if you will choose to stay with them or not.

Though it may be crude, running a set of bookshelves and some extra speaker wire length temporarily across the floor is ugly, it does let you experiment!

Sounds like a great set up. smile.gif
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post #909 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 04:31 PM
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So...any new developments in this area worth discussing? Or are we going dead on the topic? wink.gif
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post #910 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 04:35 PM
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If DTS end up only using dedicated software as opposed to a separate black box and/or including the tech in a receiver, DTS H:X is dead to me.

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post #911 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 05:24 PM
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I think if computer controlled, object oriented audio (with real overhead and wide information embedded in the track) is supposed to be the next new step in sound delivery, then yes... matrix post processed stuff like DTS Neo: X and Dolby Prologic IIz is going to fade except for those channel based soundtracks that might get a sonic boost using these modes.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #912 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 05:30 PM
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In terms of matrixed anything, they are nothing but gimmick to me. My expectation is way beyond matrixed sound. My personal take is, to me, ProLogic IIz and Neo:X are dead on arrival.

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post #913 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I think if computer controlled, object oriented audio (with real overhead and wide information embedded in the track) is supposed to be the next new step in sound delivery, then yes... matrix post processed stuff like DTS Neo: X and Dolby Prologic IIz is going to fade except for those channel based soundtracks that might get a sonic boost using these modes.
Any predictions on a time frame for HT applications?
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post #914 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

In terms of matrixed anything, they are nothing but gimmick to me. My expectation is way beyond matrixed sound. My personal take is, to me, ProLogic IIz and Neo:X are dead on arrival.

Matrixed, post-processed audio has been with us for over 25 years...
Though discrete streams may be more desireable, considering existing hardware channels/capability matrixed, post-processed will be with us going forward..
Think about how long it took for multi-channel audio to go to 4.0, 5.1 or 7.1...

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
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post #915 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 05:48 PM
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I don't dispute that, but Neo:X and DPL:IIz just sucked. DPL:IIz never work properly, Neo:X only work properly with Dredd.

No studio picked neither of them up although the technology have been around for half a decade.

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post #916 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Matrixed, post-processed audio has been with us for over 25 years...
Though discrete streams may be more desireable, considering existing hardware channels/capability matrixed, post-processed will be with us going forward..
Think about how long it took for multi-channel audio to go to 4.0, 5.1 or 7.1...
Indeed, consumer surround sound was based on matrix extraction techniques for the first quarter century of its existence. It wasn't until the mid 1990s that discrete multi-channel showed up on laserdics. At which point many declared matrix processing useless, asthough their entire libraries of 2-channel music and movies had suddenly sprouted discrete 5.1 soundtracks.

But rather than becoming useless, matrix processing actually improved. Folks were using it to scale 5.1 channels to 7.1 speakers and, more recently, scale 7.1 channels to 9.1 and 11.1 speakers.

With companies trying to bring object-based audio to consumers, no surprise that >7-channel processing is being spoken of the same way as matrix processing was in the '90s. Once again, it's asthough our entire media collections are going to suddenly have object-oriented soundtracks.

Sanjay
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post #917 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 07:10 PM
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Any predictions on a time frame for HT applications?

Maybe three or four years tops. It really depends on whether or not UHD media is going to be really pushed and pushed with advanced audio from the outset, of if they're going to soft peddle it like the laserdisc days. I'm sure if DTS had their way, it would be available tomorrow. They're really gung-ho about the prospects of MDA.

A whole new audio remix post industry could spring from it. Your favorite films now with far more sophisticated audio! All it takes is using the existing sound effects track elements and then re-purposing them with the object rendering software controller. If it's a jet or plane sound effect that was originally supposed to fly over your head... now it can. Thunder now ripples around you and above you. An explosion or bullet ricochet happens off screen in a more precise location of the room than just somewhere to the left or right of you. Etc. etc. The more the original engineers get involved, the better.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #918 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Maybe three or four years tops. It really depends on whether or not UHD media is going to be really pushed and pushed with advanced audio from the outset, of if they're going to soft peddle it like the laserdisc days. I'm sure if DTS had their way, it would be available tomorrow. They're really gung-ho about the prospects of MDA.

A whole new audio remix post industry could spring from it. Your favorite films now with far more sophisticated audio! All it takes is using the existing sound effects track elements and then re-purposing them with the object rendering software controller. If it's a jet or plane sound effect that was originally supposed to fly over your head... now it can. Thunder now ripples around you and above you. An explosion or bullet ricochet happens off screen in a more precise location of the room than just somewhere to the left or right of you. Etc. etc. The more the original engineers get involved, the better.

Keep in mind..
The big $ are in the video not audio...
So thats where the max sales/marketing efforts are targeted..
No argument...
A great surround sound track significantly enhances the entertainment impact but since 3D didn't generate the momentum now the brands are shifting to 4K UHD..
But bringing this from the theater cinema screen to the consumer's home theater system remains a challenge...

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
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post #919 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 08:14 PM
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If you check the Denon/Onkyo/Marantz owners threads where the receivers have NeoX, you'll find that most are quite happy with the results.

I use NeoX with all my movies and the effect, especially steering is exceptional even in older movies like Transformers 2.

ps DREDD isn't the only NeoX aware soundtrack. Expendables 2 was as well.
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post #920 of 1283 Old 07-18-2013, 09:35 PM
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DREDD isn't the only NeoX aware soundtrack. Expendables 2 was as well.
And 'Step Up 4'.

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post #921 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Whether or not..
DTS NEOx ever catches on with the studios is really driven by market demand..
If there is enough then the content will follow...
One thing I can say is that the last (2) DTS Master Audio NEOx blu-ray demo disks distributed at WCES were incredible for the movie and music tracks that were NEOx encoded..
One would swear the tracks were discrete..

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post #922 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 05:53 AM
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Still, 5 years after the introduction in receivers, 3 or 5 or 10 movies encoded with NeoX is sad (no movie is in DPL IIz is even sadder)

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post #923 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Still, 5 years after the introduction in receivers, 3 or 5 or 10 movies encoded with NeoX is sad (no movie is in DPL IIz is even sadder)

Does that refer to NeoX in less than 11 channels? Otherwise - what receivers have it? I thought the Denon 4520 was the first one...

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post #924 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 07:32 AM
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I bought a Yamaha RX-Z11 when they were first offered (5 years ago?) because I think the sound is as important as the video. 11.2 Neo X seemed to me to be the next best thing, but I've been reluctant to step up, even though I'm wired for front wide in my HT, because I'm not sure that there is enough improvement over Yamaha's matrixing. One reason I'm waiting is because the matrix solution seems to be the only current way to get spatial sound for movies. I am dismayed at the number of Blu-ray releases without even 7.1 encoding. I'm hoping that "some" direct encoding system for multichannel sound will emerge out of the 4K need for greater bandwidth which will actually be incorporated in movie releases.
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post #925 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 08:36 AM
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I am dismayed at the number of Blu-ray releases without even 7.1 encoding. I'm hoping that "some" direct encoding system for multichannel sound will emerge out of the 4K need for greater bandwidth which will actually be incorporated in movie releases.

NHK has been lobbying for a mechanism to support their (discrete) Hamasaki 22.2 channel configuration as the audio component of UHDTV1|UHDTV2 for a number of years, but even if the entire source-through-home-delivery chain is configured to accommodate 14, 16 or even 24 channel audio there still remains the problem: How does delivering home theater video with discrete 9.1 through (say) 15.1 channel audio (or equivalent object based functionality) generate increased revenue for the studios if only a tiny fraction of the viewing audience has a speaker configuration beyond 5.1?
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post #926 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 09:26 AM
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Dolby ATMOS should be the next one for us HT enthusiast, look at he numbers of movies released in theater over the past two years in ATMOS! None in DTS MDA:(

I think 2014 might be the year of ATMOS for all of us in our home cinemas


Dolby Atmos Movies
Find a Dolby Atmos theatre near you, or learn more about Dolby Atmos. Check your local listings for Dolby® Atmos™ movie titles currently playing at theatres near you.

2013 Dolby Atmos Movie Releases

The White Storm (December 2013, exact date to be determined [TBD])
En Solitaire (November 6, 2013)
Young Detective Dee: Rise of the Sea Dragon (October 13, 2013)
Gravity (October 4, 2013)
Lost Place (September 19, 2013)
Insidious: Chapter 2 (September 13, 2013)
Elysium (August 9, 2013)
Percy Jackson: Sea of Monsters (August 7, 2013)
The Wolverine (July 26, 2013)
Turbo (July 17, 2013)
Pacific Rim (July 12, 2013)
The Congress (July 2013, exact date TBD)
Mr. Go (July 2013, exact date TBD)
The Heat (June 28, 2013)
Monsters University (June 21, 2013)
Man of Steel (June 14, 2013)
Kuiba 2 (May 31, 2013)
Epic (May 24, 2013)
Star Trek into Darkness (May 17, 2013)
Iron Man 3 (May 3, 2013)
Oblivion (April 19, 2013)
Nautanki Saala! (April 12, 2013)
Commando (April 12, 2013)
Trance (April 5, 2013)
G.I. Joe: Retaliation (March 28, 2013)
The Croods (March 22, 2013)
Aatma (March 22, 2013)
Oz the Great and Powerful (March 8, 2013)
A Good Day to Die Hard (February 14, 2013)
Journey to the West: Conquering the Demons (February 10, 2013)
ABCD—Any Body Can Dance (February 8, 2013)
Race 2 (January 25, 2013)
Mama (January 18, 2013)

2012 Dolby Atmos Movie Releases
The Last Tycoon (December 22, 2012)
The Guillotines (December 20, 2012)
Chinese Zodiac (CZ12) (December 20, 2012)
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (December 14, 2012)
Sivaji 3D (December 12, 2012)
Back to 1942 (November 29, 2012)
Rise of the Guardians (November 21, 2012)
Life of Pi (November 21, 2012)
Ah Boys to Men (November 8, 2012)
Chasing Mavericks (October 26, 2012)
Taken 2 (October 5, 2012)
Brave (June 22, 2012)
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post #927 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 09:33 AM
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I think 2014 might be the year of ATMOS for all of us in our home cinemas


Really? You think that soon? Pretty optimistic, imo but I hope you're right! biggrin.gif

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post #928 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 09:46 AM
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Is there any standard for atmos on bluray even in discussion? If we don't have a media format, that it's no use building receivers...

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post #929 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Is there any standard for atmos on bluray even in discussion? If we don't have a media format, that it's no use building receivers...

Exactly.

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post #930 of 1283 Old 07-19-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Still, 5 years after the introduction in receivers, 3 or 5 or 10 movies encoded with NeoX is sad (no movie is in DPL IIz is even sadder)
Nothing sad about it, unless you're starting from the mistaken premise that those technologies were sold as encode/decode schemes. Fact is they weren't, instead having been promoted exclusively as surround processing for unencoded material.

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