DTS Neo.X - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 1283 Old 01-07-2011, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
@ CES 2011 DTS demoed their new algorithm Neo.x which can output up to 11.1, taking a 2.0, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 digital audio stream. They can use Front Sides and/or Front Heights in certain combinations. They will have 3 modes, 1 for movies, 1 for music and 1 for games.

Their demo was incredible they played some tracks from their new Blu-Ray demo disk # 15. They played the U2 cut City of Building Lights from their Rose Bowl concert. Also for movies they played a cut from Robin Hood and The Twilight Saga: New Moon.

In talking to the DTS product manager, he mentioned AVRs with Neo.X should start to ship later this year in the Fall. Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.

Just my $0.02...
M Code is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 1283 Old 01-09-2011, 06:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SoundChex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA, west coast
Posts: 2,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

@ CES 2011 DTS demoed their new algorithm Neo:x which can output up to 11.1, taking a 2.0, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 digital audio stream. They can use Front Sides and/or Front Heights in certain combinations. They will have 3 modes, 1 for movies, 1 for music and 1 for games.

"Honey, we're going to need a whole lot more of them speaker thingys!"


["11.1 'down' . . . 11.1 'to go'. At least we're 'half way' to 22.2...!?" ]
LL

[Home Office system schematic]
"My AV systems were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many speakers. And they have . . . A PLAN."

SoundChex is online now  
post #3 of 1283 Old 04-01-2011, 02:52 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,732
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 367 Post(s)
Liked: 180
M Code,

Do you know if DTS Neo.X can operate without a center channel speaker (unlike Audyssey DSX which requires a center)?

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #4 of 1283 Old 04-01-2011, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

M Code,

Do you know if DTS Neo.X can operate without a center channel speaker (unlike Audyssey DSX which requires a center)?

Funny you asked this question..

We just received a prototype processor with DTS Neo.X, the OSD menu allows the Center speaker to be turned OFF. I don't know if I can do this comparison before departing for the Orient tomorrow, I will try and post back...

Just my $0.02...
M Code is offline  
post #5 of 1283 Old 04-02-2011, 11:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,732
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 367 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
We just received a prototype processor with DTS Neo.X, the OSD menu allows the Center speaker to be turned OFF.
So far so good.

Did you then activate Neo.x (I can turn the center off on my 4311 but then DSX is unavailable)?

I just noticed you said processor, not receiver.

I imagine you're not at liberty to say what kind, but how about an approximate price range?

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #6 of 1283 Old 04-02-2011, 01:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.
How would it jumpstart sales if there's no >7.1 content and no mass audience to decode it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
We just received a prototype processor with DTS Neo.X
An AP20 or DL2, perhaps?

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #7 of 1283 Old 04-02-2011, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

How would it jumpstart sales if there's no >7.1 content and no mass audience to decode it?

Keep in mind that 86% of the AVRs sold today are 7.1...

Quote:


An AP20 or DL2, perhaps?

Good guess but no...

Just my $0.02...
M Code is offline  
post #8 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 12:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Keep in mind that 86% of the AVRs sold today are 7.1...

Yes. And BD handles 7.1 already. What would Neo:X bring to the party?

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #9 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 01:44 AM
cwt
AVS Special Member
 
cwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nsw australia
Posts: 1,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.

I dont know if the mixdown requirements are similar to dolby M Code but apart from the obvious dsp algorithm being applied to 5.1/7.1 etc material this '' content encoded in neo x '' has me intrigued . Is it possible 11.1 remixed discrete soundtracks ;from the vast majority 5.1 mixes; is the aim ?

The paucity of 7.1 titles and studios attitudes to this remixing [cost?] doesnt engender a lot of hope .. Not that I wouldnt like to see such remixes A lot of fans of wide front speakers so fascinating to see developments
cwt is offline  
post #10 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes. And BD handles 7.1 already. What would Neo:X bring to the party?


Keep in mind..
DTS has always had a tech trick up its sleeve, 5.1 remains the norm but in a mature, competitive industry a brand needs something to set it apart. As the later mid-to-higher class AVRs are introduced and nclude higher resourced audio DSPs they have the capability of additional post-processing modes including DTS Neo.X or even SRS virtualizing for multi-zones. The brand can include these additional modes especially along with DTS MA which is the standard for BD. They put relatively minor technical burdens on the brand if they just include the 9.1 and 11.1 pre-outs and the user adds his own external amplifiers since it is just software.. Additionally since DTS already has a competitive single royalty cost for the DTS SD and DTS HD algorithm, they would likely make it a package..

Just my $0.02...
M Code is offline  
post #11 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 10:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
Crabalocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Probably a stupid question but can newer receivers such as the Denon 4311 be able to download the newer decoding formats? I only ask because I am buying a new AVR this summer and if Neo X can't be downloaded, I think I'll just wait till the new model comes out.
Crabalocker is online now  
post #12 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 10:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Easyaspie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Probably a stupid question but can newer receivers such as the Denon 4311 be able to download the newer decoding formats? I only ask because I am buying a new AVR this summer and if Neo X can't be downloaded, I think I'll just wait till the new model comes out.

I would imagine it is doubtful that it can be added via a firmware update.
Easyaspie is offline  
post #13 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 10:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
Crabalocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:


I would imagine it is doubtful that it can be added via a firmware update.

Cool thanks Easyaspie, I guess I wait till the newer receivers come out!
Crabalocker is online now  
post #14 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 11:16 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,815
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.
What does your above claim about studios matrix encoding content in Neo:X in order to jump start lagging Blu-ray sales have to do with blind upmixing in receivers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
DTS has always had a tech trick up its sleeve, 5.1 remains the norm but in a mature, competitive industry a brand needs something to set it apart. As the later mid-to-higher class AVRs are introduced and nclude higher resourced audio DSPs they have the capability of additional post-processing modes including DTS Neo.X or even SRS virtualizing for multi-zones. The brand can include these additional modes especially along with DTS MA which is the standard for BD. They put relatively minor technical burdens on the brand if they just include the 9.1 and 11.1 pre-outs and the user adds his own external amplifiers since it is just software.. Additionally since DTS already has a competitive single royalty cost for the DTS SD and DTS HD algorithm, they would likely make it a package..
Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #15 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 11:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SoundChex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA, west coast
Posts: 2,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What does your above claim about studios matrix encoding content in Neo:X in order to jump start lagging Blu-ray sales have to do with blind upmixing in receivers? Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?
Actually, it's not clear that encoded DTS-HDMA 11.1 content would be matrixed. Remember that the 'architecture' of the DTS bitstream allowed DTS to insert a discrete Center Surround into the DTS DVD encodes . . . which retained backward compatibility with both DTS5.1 and DTS6.1-ES(Matrix) 'earlier generation' decoders. There's no obvious reason DTS cannot include [the components for] alternative 7.1 and 11.1 discrete channel mixes into the DTS-HDMA bitstream, with the 11.1 mix only accessible from a ('next generation', Neo:X) DTS-HDMA 11.1 compliant decoder.

[Home Office system schematic]
"My AV systems were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many speakers. And they have . . . A PLAN."

SoundChex is online now  
post #16 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 11:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kriktsemaj99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 6,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?
A DTS version probably has a lot more chance than Audyssey DSX of being picked up by most or all manufacturers, and since DTS encoders are already used on most BDs there's a good chance of seeing 11.2 content encoded (matrixed or otherwise) on new disks, which would never happen with the current Audyssey solution.

What I wonder is whether some manufacturers currently using Audyssey DSX will drop it in favour of the DTS solution (why pay two sets of license fees?).
kriktsemaj99 is offline  
post #17 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What does your above claim about studios matrix encoding content in Neo:X in order to jump start lagging Blu-ray sales have to do with blind upmixing in receivers?
Software content drives hardware sales..
If the studios start mastering and releasing material encoded with Neo.X either in 7.1, 9.1 or even 11.1 this will raise the demand for Neo.X decoders. The market expects content..
A good example is the hype for 3-D, all of the new HDMI 1.4 flat panel displays have this capability but without supporting content the sizzle fades away..

Quote:
Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?
As previously mentioned the audio DSP resource requirements (MIPs & memory) for DTS Neo.X are minimal so a mid-to-high AVR will be able to process this easily.. If they already have enough pre-out channels then it is actually easier to implement as the case for certain Denon models.

The promise of DTS Neo.X is simply another multi-channel post-processing mode which to my ears sounds excellant. To me this is similar to the case of Lexicon and HK in their products which offer Logic 7 modes of 5.1 or 7.1 soundstages even from HD streams.
If the listener thinks they sound better than use it if not turn it off.
All related to marketing mix..

Just my $0.02...
M Code is offline  
post #18 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post
Probably a stupid question but can newer receivers such as the Denon 4311 be able to download the newer decoding formats? I only ask because I am buying a new AVR this summer and if Neo X can't be downloaded, I think I'll just wait till the new model comes out.

Good question..
Yes it is feasible as long as the subject AVR model such as Denon has enough DSP resources available..

However keep in mind that D&M Holdings (owns Denon & Marantz & others) frequently charge $ for certain updates such as AirPlay. Really depends upon their respective brand's marketing policy.

Just my $0.02..
M Code is offline  
post #19 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Actually, it's not clear that encoded DTS-HDMA 11.1 content would be matrixed. Remember that the 'architecture' of the DTS bitstream allowed DTS to insert a discrete Center Surround into the DTS DVD encodes . . . which retained backward compatibility with both DTS5.1 and DTS6.1-ES(Matrix) 'earlier generation' decoders. There's no obvious reason DTS cannot include [the components for] alternative 7.1 and 11.1 discrete channel mixes into the DTS-HDMA bitstream, with the 11.1 mix only accessible from a ('next generation', Neo:X) DTS-HDMA 11.1 compliant decoder.
The exact method DTS used for Discrete 6.1 ES already exists in the BD spec for HDMA and TrueHD. Several flavors of 7.1 can be carried, not just the one we see in BD discs thus far with 4 surrounds. For example, a 5.1 plus a pair of heights, or wides (of a few flavors) can be handled. And those channels can be further matrix encoded so, for example, the Lh/Rh speakers could carry 3/4/5 overhead signals while the Ls/Rs carries 4 surrounds, thus yielding a total of 12.1 "channels" in a fully compatible way. In addition, BD can carry several additional discrete channels using TrueHD (maybe HDMA, too) by adding additional substreams. It, too, would be perfectly compatible with existing BD players, since that was already defined at the time of the initial BD spec.

Cool, so why don't we see 12.1 "real" content? No one is mixing like that, and if they did, no decoders would understand it. Classic "chicken and egg" problem.

As for Neo:X, like any matrix technology, it is a means to deliver additional channels when discrete pipes are not available, such as the 12.1 -->7.1 case described above. Neo:X encoding, per JJ's interview with Scott Wilkinson, is a form of downmixing with specific embedded cues to help the decoder find and recover the channels. This most resembles what Neural poetically called "watermarking." In that sense, even though the details differ, it is conceptually like other matrix techniques.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #20 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 12:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Software content drives hardware sales..
If the studios start mastering and releasing material encoded with Neo.X either in 7.1, 9.1 or even 11.1 this will raise the demand for Neo.X decoders. The market expects content..
7.1 is available as discrete from BD or even DD+. The paucity of 7.1 titles does not look too encouraging for 9.1 and 11.1 mixes, particularly since no theaters or home gear know how to decode those.

Quote:
The promise of DTS Neo.X is simply another multi-channel post-processing mode which to my ears sounds excellant. To me this is similar to the case of Lexicon and HK in their products which offer Logic 7 modes of 5.1 or 7.1 soundstages even from HD streams.
If the listener thinks they sound better than use it if not turn it off.
All related to marketing mix..
If blind upmixing is what you want, yes indeed I'd expect Neo:X to do that nicely, much better than Neural now that JJ & Jot are on the case.

But that does nothing to drive sales of BD, since upmixing works with any existing content. Logic7 and PLIIx do nothing to drive sales of content of any kind. It will take a lot more than the presence of a new decoder in a small proportion of AVRs to jumpstart the market for BD.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #21 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 12:59 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
counsil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 1,979
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Roger,

What do you want to bet that Audyssey will not allow MultEQ and Neo.X to run concurrently, just like PLIIz? I believe this will be the sole reason that DSX will survive (for the time being anyway).

doug.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Counsil Basement HT
counsil is offline  
post #22 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 01:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,815
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Actually, it's not clear that encoded DTS-HDMA 11.1 content would be matrixed.
Does the BD spec allow for playback of more than 8 discrete channels of audio?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #23 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 01:21 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
counsil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 1,979
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post
Roger,

What do you want to bet that Audyssey will not allow MultEQ and Neo.X to run concurrently, just like PLIIz? I believe this will be the sole reason that DSX will survive (for the time being anyway).

doug.
My bad. Its Dolby Volume that Audyssey doesn't allow to co-exist with MultEQ.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Counsil Basement HT
counsil is offline  
post #24 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
7.1 is available as discrete from BD or even DD+. The paucity of 7.1 titles does not look too encouraging for 9.1 and 11.1 mixes, particularly since no theaters or home gear know how to decode those.

If blind upmixing is what you want, yes indeed I'd expect Neo:X to do that nicely, much better than Neural now that JJ & Jot are on the case.

But that does nothing to drive sales of BD, since upmixing works with any existing content. Logic7 and PLIIx do nothing to drive sales of content of any kind. It will take a lot more than the presence of a new decoder in a small proportion of AVRs to jumpstart the market for BD.
Keep in mind that the home theater category is mature and really not increasing, so that there is not significant push for expansion from a marketing viewpoint..
The product category of AVRs is stagnant and its total $ are actually shrinking as result of the AVR market share shootout between Yamaha, Denon, Sony and Onkyo driving the average AVR's price-points downward..

The last marketing data for AVRs I saw some months back showed a 31% decrease in the median pricing for the AVR's retail price comparing 2009 vs. 2010. The qtys are climbing slightly but total $ are dropping as the average AVR's prices decline. Part of this can be explained by the weak global economy but more largely it is dependent upon the home theater category of loosing its momentum and sizzle of more exciting products for the consumer to purchase such as iPad, smart phones & on-line games..

Also one can see the shift of the primary emphasis of DTS, Dolby and even Harman are addressing the automotive, internet and personal electronic product categories for their future revenue growth...

Regarding the weakness of the BD market this is driven by the likes of Netflix and other download services.. Why buy when you can download the movie via the internet rather than purchase it.. Also Blockbuster has been destroyed along the way..

Just my $0.02...
M Code is offline  
post #25 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 02:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,815
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Software content drives hardware sales..
Consumer 7.1 hardware came out 20 years before any 7.1 software was released on BD. Plenty of people already had 5.1 speaker layouts years before there was any 5.1 material.
Quote:
The promise of DTS Neo.X is simply another multi-channel post-processing mode which to my ears sounds excellant.
So receivers can already do 11.1, but you think this particular flavour of 11.1 matrix upmixing will jump start lagging BD sales? And you believe Neo:X will do this because it "sounds excellant" to your ears?

I don't see the connection between the various claims you're making. Studios aren't compelled to mix beyond 5.1, that has nothing to do with greater BD sales, neither of which have anything to do with post-processing in receivers. They unrelated. Neo:6 going to change all that?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #26 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Consumer 7.1 hardware came out 20 years before any 7.1 software was released on BD. Plenty of people already had 5.1 speaker layouts years before there was any 5.1 material. So receivers can already do 11.1, but you think this particular flavour of 11.1 matrix upmixing will jump start lagging BD sales? And you believe Neo:X will do this because it "sounds excellant" to your ears?
As I have posted previously..
Go out and listen to a demo yourself then decide if it meets your expectations.. Don't rely upon a random comment made in an internet thread.


Quote:
I don't see the connection between the various claims you're making. Studios aren't compelled to mix beyond 5.1, that has nothing to do with greater BD sales, neither of which have anything to do with post-processing in receivers. They unrelated. Neo:6 going to change all that?
If the studios don't release enough content in 7.1 or even 9.1 or 11.1..
No real biggee...
Thats where the matrix post-processing modes fills the bill. This is exactly what demand Pro Logic 2X, Logic 7 and Neo 6 contribute in a 7.1 AVR which make up 85% of the market. It is pertinent to note that though the majority of the AVRs sold today are 7.1 capable but whereas the L/R back surround channel amplifiers are used more frequently for Zone II audio than 7.1 surround...

Just my $0.02..
M Code is offline  
post #27 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 03:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,903
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Keep in mind that the home theater category is mature and really not increasing, so that there is not significant push for expansion from a marketing viewpoint..
The product category of AVRs is stagnant and its total $ are actually shrinking as result of the AVR market share shootout between Yamaha, Denon, Sony and Onkyo driving the average AVR's price-points downward..

The last marketing data for AVRs I saw some months back showed a 31% decrease in the median pricing for the AVR's retail price comparing 2009 vs. 2010. The qtys are climbing slightly but total $ are dropping as the average AVR's prices decline. Part of this can be explained by the weak global economy but more largely it is dependent upon the home theater category of loosing its momentum and sizzle of more exciting products for the consumer to purchase such as iPad, smart phones & on-line games..

Also one can see the shift of the primary emphasis of DTS, Dolby and even Harman are addressing the automotive, internet and personal electronic product categories for their future revenue growth...

Regarding the weakness of the BD market this is driven by the likes of Netflix and other download services.. Why buy when you can download the movie via the internet rather than purchase it.. Also Blockbuster has been destroyed along the way..
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
If the studios don't release enough content in 7.1 or even 9.1 or 11.1..
No real biggee...
Thats where the matrix post-processing modes fills the bill. This is exactly what demand Pro Logic 2X, Logic 7 and Neo 6 contribute in a 7.1 AVR which make up 85% of the market. It is pertinent to note that though the majority of the AVRs sold today are 7.1 capable but whereas the L/R back surround channel amplifiers are used more frequently for Zone II audio than 7.1 surround...
Ok. Based on all the the above, I'm still trying to figure out where that leaves your original assertion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
In talking to the DTS product manager, he mentioned AVRs with Neo.X should start to ship later this year in the Fall. Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.
Looks like a non-starter even based your on own perspective, and on that I fully agree.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #28 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 05:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,815
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Go out and listen to a demo yourself then decide if it meets your expectations..

I have, as well as their previous 11.1 iterations (which used 2 heights and 6 surrounds, no wides).
Quote:


If the studios don't release enough content in 7.1 or even 9.1 or 11.1..
No real biggee...
Thats where the matrix post-processing modes fills the bill.

That's nothing new: surround processing has traditionally been used to scale the number of source channels to the number of playback speakers. So it doesn't really matter if studios go beyond 5.1 mixes.

But what does any of that have to do with your earlier claim about studios using Neo:X encoded content to jumpstart lagging BD sales? Besides, what would they encode? (Don't tell me there's an 11.1-channel mix of 'The Haunting' that's been sitting on the shelf all these years, just waiting for DTS to come up with the delivery/playback technology.)

It never ceases to amaze me how DTS's technologies somehow manage to gain magical properties. A few years ago, folks were convinced that DTS-HD MA sounded better than the uncompressed PCM it was sourced from. And now matrix processing that will boost BD sales. They make the marketing department at Bose look like rank amatuers by comparison.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #29 of 1283 Old 04-03-2011, 10:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
locomo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Memphis
Posts: 1,326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Off topic, but if they want to increase Blu-ray sales, get rid of Java.
Making Blu-ray players slower AND dumber
(ex. can't return to where you watching a movie, after a stop/power cycle)
than DVD is just plain stupid.

Now, back to our regular scheduled program.
locomo is offline  
post #30 of 1283 Old 04-04-2011, 04:31 AM
cwt
AVS Special Member
 
cwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nsw australia
Posts: 1,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

7.1 is available as discrete from BD or even DD+. The paucity of 7.1 titles does not look too encouraging for 9.1 and 11.1 mixes, particularly since no theaters or home gear know how to decode those.

Certainly is a chicken/egg situation Roger ; the bd distributors down here in Aus are more likely to release a 7.1 US title as 5.1 ; region free chips are very popular for amazon purchases

If this was a driver for sales I wonder when the current hdmi limit of 8ch will be expanded to the 16ch capability ; not for awhile going on the permutations you listed
cwt is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Dts , Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off